Sticker Shock!!!!!

Joker18

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I have bought C&R firearms for several years. I happened to visit Classic Arms website to see what they had and Classic Arms was just posting videos of some Czech captured K98 Mausers as well as some other bolt rifles. Most of the K98's were 1945 (postwar) stamped and admittedly some were in fine shape. This post is not meant to cast anything negative toward Classic Arms because I have bought surplus from them for several years as well as from other distributors.
What shook my world is the prices these pieces were asking. One K98 was priced at $1,200 and it was a beautiful specimen although it was post war (no wartime markings). All the rifles, even ones with cracked stocks were selling for a pretty penny. I don't think anything sold for less than $449.00.
I suppose that this post is somewhat of a lament that the days of reasonably priced (meaning affordable) surplus firearms are over. I'm sure it has to do with the law of supply and demand i.e. that sooner or later the supply of surplus arms would dry up however I didn't expect it so suddenly.
Five years ago I bought a very nice Russian capture K98 stamped 1939 with most serial #'s matching (not bolt). It had all the Waffenampts and was manufactured by J.P. Sauer and Sohn for the Wehrmacht. I think I paid $439.00 back then and thought it was a bit steep.
I guess I shouldn't be surprised because Mosin's that once sold for $79.00 not too long ago now go just shy of $300.00 (especially for a hex receiver).
Maybe I'm aging a little faster than I think LOL:confused: It sure did surprise me however and I am going to have to really pick and choose what surplus I buy (and can afford).
 
Times they be a changin. As little as 6 years ago a clean matching SKS could be had for 250.00.. Now try and find one for less than 400.00. Even the recent battle weary imports are sellin for 399.
 
I got into the surplus game a few years to late:( when the surplus's you want in shoot able shape are nearing the price of modern equivalents its hard to justify. Especially for a beginner like me. History and coolness are the whole point of them but since "this or that" feature result in a $200 price swing. It's difficult to stumble on a surplus you want and know it's good value if your new in the game. id love to have a gorgeous Garand, but for the same to a little more I can get a new m1a from Springfield. It's not the same but super similar and a known quality:oops: very frustrating...

Speaking of frustrating. Thanks to the jerk (actually super cool guy) I met at moss knob range last weekend. Can't recall his name. Could be a member here, didn't think to ask. He let me shoot his surplus Garand. In great shape. I had never fired one before. Dear lord so very sexy. Now I can't get them outta my head once again:rolleyes: The struggle is real!
 
I suppose I realized Milsurp would always appreciate. I did not however expect it to be so fast. I'm sure other factors played a part in the sudden interest one of which was the tragic shootings of the past few years and fear of impending gun legislation. Also surplus rifles were/are favored by the prepper movement of the last several years because surplus rifles were perceived as hardy and inexpensive. I would think that those are only two of the factors coupled with the realization that the surplus rifles were a finite source.
 
For those who want some more sticker shock, I have 7.62x54R spam cans in the BST for $180 . . . each! Apparently this is a reasonable asking price these days.

I wish I had cashed in my 401K and bought a truckload of Mosins, Mausers and spam cans.
Heh. I wish every dollar I put into AR gear had gone into Russian milsurp gear. American made black plastic keeps going down while the old Soviet era stuff keeps going up.
 
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I suppose I realized Milsurp would always appreciate. I did not however expect it to be so fast. I'm sure other factors played a part in the sudden interest one of which was the tragic shootings of the past few years and fear of impending gun legislation. Also surplus rifles were/are favored by the prepper movement of the last several years because surplus rifles were perceived as hardy and inexpensive. I would think that those are only two of the factors coupled with the realization that the surplus rifles were a finite source.

With that said, there are the people who buy milsurp because when they first get in the market they might be cheap. So, in their mind, they are crap useless cheap piece of junk. And then proceed to do things like storing them by trying them together and throwing them in a river, using them as hammers and engine stands and targets for their newer rifles, cutting their barrels by banging rocks together, modifying using parts they found at the Wal Mart dumpster, and finally making sure to only run ammo that not only is guaranteed to be corrosive but also is already corroded beyond any safe level. Click bangs with brittle brass get extra pointsl. So, a few get blown up, who cares? They are cheap and the supply is infinite, right?

Don't think they do much to help keeping the supply side of the curve high.

About surplus ammo, I cringe when I hear people proudly stating they only run the cheapest surplus ammo they find in their surplus rifle. I wonder if that has anything to do with reports that G43s are dangerous rifles and how hard is now to find a surplus rifle which has been in the US for a while with a barrel that is not a sewer pipe.
 
I got into the surplus game a few years to late:( when the surplus's you want in shoot able shape are nearing the price of modern equivalents its hard to justify.

Agree 100%. I like the history of them, but it's really getting to the point of pushing the limit of "do I like it *that* much?", especially when-as you pointed out - there's a new-in-box alternative that functions just as well, if not better*.


*yes, there are some brands that have gone downhill that can prove exceptions, but there are many solidly-built bolt guns and semis on the market to provide an alternative.
 
I just divide my collection into two groups, things that I want because they are just cool and a part of history (like the svt 40 I just got, pictures to come). Then there are thing that I want for function, like my ak or ar. You can have both you just have to decide if it is someting you want. As for prices going up, we'll they are just going to keep getting higher.
 
What's "cheap" in milsurp today? Nothing? Ten years ago when I was still in college and only a couple years into buying/collecting/stashing milsurp stuff, everyone I knew - especially the fellow shooters in my age group - had at least one 91/30 and a crate of 54r. For only about $100, you could take home a super reliable and historic rifle, with enough ammo to last you an entire afternoon at the range. Or as long as your shoulder would allow.

I've been out of the milsurp game for awhile now, and am happy with what I own (although one can never have too many cans of 54r). But is there anything in today's market that mimics the Mosin market just a few years ago? I doubt so, but if there is, I'm not familiar with it.
 
Milsurps have gone up and will probably continue to go up.
I got into a Mosin buying spree before they got too far out of hand. I'm ashamed to admit that I payed $350 for one of my Westinghouse Mosins but most of them I bought much cheaper.
Unless I find a great deal on one I'm done for now, just hanging on to what I have.
Here are some of my M91s, they were like crack for a while but I haven't bought one in almost 5 months.
20160302_202042.jpg
 
Classic Arms is high with their Milsurp stuff. Most of what they're selling came from their purchase of Samco stuff that sat in warehouses for years (if not decades). One can usually match (or beat) their prices by shopping carefully in the secondary markets.

1990-2000 or so was the real golden age. Most WWII stuff was 50 yrs old, the ex-Commies in Europe needed cash and milsurp came in by the shipload. 5-fer $100 Turkish mausers, 4 fer $100 m91's , 100$ Swedes... all of that is gone forever at those prices.

It was a fun time.
 
Look back at some of the old gun rag ads from the 60's. You could get M1 Carbines & Garands for $60, 30-40 Krag,Mauser,Mosin for half that price. Things have always gone up it just sucks to live in the time when the well starts to run dry and whats left sells at a high price. I was lucky enough to get a couple of very nice SKS an Mosin rifles as well as a couple surplus handguns that all together cost less than a nice hunting rifle and scope package. I always wanted one of those K31's or K98's but money was an issue when they were cheap so I probably will never own one,but I'm glad to have what I have.
 
Look back at some of the old gun rag ads from the 60's. You could get M1 Carbines & Garands for $60, 30-40 Krag,Mauser,Mosin for half that price. Things have always gone up it just sucks to live in the time when the well starts to run dry and whats left sells at a high price. I was lucky enough to get a couple of very nice SKS an Mosin rifles as well as a couple surplus handguns that all together cost less than a nice hunting rifle and scope package. I always wanted one of those K31's or K98's but money was an issue when they were cheap so I probably will never own one,but I'm glad to have what I have.

But, how much was $60 in 60s money now?
 
But, how much was $60 in 60s money now?
I hope that was not a rhetorical question!
1.00 in 1960 is equal to 8.62 in 2017. Which means a 60.00 Garrand in 1960 should be worth 517.20 today. It would be nice to get the quality of Garrand available in 1960 today at 517.20. BUT, supply and demand, as well as market fluctuations apply. Any good to average Garrand will bring between 900.00 and 1600.00 depending on quality, year of MFG and original Manufacture Other factors include correct dated and matching parts. Some may even exceed 1500.00 to collectors.
Soooo.... If you are in your 20'to30s now it might be a gooid idea to put a sizeable amount into C&R firearms as they historically exceed the stock market as well as being tangible accesses. AND ---- They are a lot more fun at the range than organizing your stock portfolio. :)
 
I was looking at a 1957 NRA American Rifleman last night, you want sticker shock?
1873 Springfield Trapdoor 45-70 = $9.75
NY State trade-in 45 ACP revolvers = $38
Remington 40X 22 LR = $120 MSRP
 
That's the thing about milsurp... They ain't making more of them. ;) I screwed up my first mosin, but thankfully not so bad I couldn't restore it back. Learned a lesson quickly that while you think there are millions of something out there, once they stop coming in the prices WILL go up. As more and more people screw with them, the originals go up. Surplus ammo only moves in one direction too. Eventually it'll become "collectible" even.
 
Learned a lesson quickly that while you think there are millions of something out there, once they stop coming in the prices WILL go up. As more and more people screw with them, the originals go up. Surplus ammo only moves in one direction too. Eventually it'll become "collectible" even.

If you have not cut its barrel to 16", put an AR flashhider, pistol grip, and buttstock, and put a 30 round magazine on it, you have not screwed it up enough. ;)
 
If you have not cut its barrel to 16", put an AR flashhider, pistol grip, and buttstock, and put a 30 round magazine on it, you have not screwed it up enough. ;)

Don't forget the scope mount.... because nothing says milsurp like modern optics!
 
My kids always ask me when they come to visit how much their inheritance has increased. They know what I paid for my Mosins and Swiss rifles. I only have one SKS and that works for me. Just never could get into them. I do enjoy shooting it though. They are amazed at the price increase. I shake my head every once in a while also. It seems the past couple of years they are increasing quickly. Guess supply is drying up. I have only refinished the stock on one of the Mosins'. All other rifles will be left alone. I should have enough ammo to last me the rest of my shooting life.
 
I think that the inflation in some milsurps is a bit of a bubble. It is true that generally, "they aren't making any more of them". But in the case of Mosins, they already made 20 million of them. And I think 75% of those were sold by Roses back in the 80's for $29.99. With a few notable examples, there is nothing rare about a Mosin Nagant. This is the same with a lot of other milsurps as well. Just because something is not currently cheap or plentiful on the retail market does not make that item suddenly valuable or rare. This is not to say that you should be afraid to step up a little to buy a good example of a collectable or interesting milsurp if it comes along. But I would not let the doom and gloom, "THESE WILL NEVER BE OFFERED FOR SALE EVER AGAIN - SCOUTS HONOR!!!" pronouncements panic me into paying a premium for a run of the mill example of a relatively common milsurp.
 
When they ran out of Swedish Mausers...they were out ( I did my part...they were my weakness)

With the possible exception of M91's , they're all finite in supply particularly the "nice" versions of anything.

I bought a Rock-Ola M1 Carbine in the late 90's for $249 and a Russian capture Luger for $379. Not too many of those coming to market these days (they were unusual even then in the surplus market). All things go come to an end. 7.62x54R spam cans came in for decades on the cheap....not anymore!
 
I remember when the Roses store in North Myrtle Beach had usually 3-4 barrels full of old military rifles, they were never over $99.00, most were in the $39-$69 range.
 
I think that the inflation in some milsurps is a bit of a bubble. It is true that generally, "they aren't making any more of them". But in the case of Mosins, they already made 20 million of them. And I think 75% of those were sold by Roses back in the 80's for $29.99. With a few notable examples, there is nothing rare about a Mosin Nagant. This is the same with a lot of other milsurps as well. Just because something is not currently cheap or plentiful on the retail market does not make that item suddenly valuable or rare. This is not to say that you should be afraid to step up a little to buy a good example of a collectable or interesting milsurp if it comes along. But I would not let the doom and gloom, "THESE WILL NEVER BE OFFERED FOR SALE EVER AGAIN - SCOUTS HONOR!!!" pronouncements panic me into paying a premium for a run of the mill example of a relatively common milsurp.

Just think though. Millions were made, and how many of those came over here? And then how many of those have been refinished, cut down, shot out, thrown in stupid tapco stocks, or turned into examples so violated they will need 20 years of counseling?

Every one that is modified changes the market. Perhaps not quickly, but over time, the "there are 20 million of them" mantra starts to fade. Especially, speaking from a professional aspect here, nobody (read very few) wants to buy one to modify if it isn't original. I quite literally can't count the number of people who come in and want an unmolested Finnish mosin, or Hex receiver for the sole reason of chopping up and doing the same mod everyone else does. Cause and I quote " I don't know what they did to it, and mine will be better"

Milsurp values are a bit of a paradox. With notable examples (IBM m1 carbines, Singer 1911s) they are generally only worth something once a certain number have been destroyed. And it is those destroyed examples that are raising the market price. I mean I used to find unmolested 1903s all day long for 250-400 or so not horribly long ago. But so many of them were sportorized for hunting weapons, then of course the Saving Private Ryan/videogame people got involved in the older stuff and it all went to hell. Demand went up, and upon seeing so few in their issue condition, the price followed suit quickly.
 
Just think though. Millions were made, and how many of those came over here? And then how many of those have been refinished, cut down, shot out, thrown in stupid tapco stocks, or turned into examples so violated they will need 20 years of counseling?

Every one that is modified changes the market. Perhaps not quickly, but over time, the "there are 20 million of them" mantra starts to fade. Especially, speaking from a professional aspect here, nobody (read very few) wants to buy one to modify if it isn't original. I quite literally can't count the number of people who come in and want an unmolested Finnish mosin, or Hex receiver for the sole reason of chopping up and doing the same mod everyone else does. Cause and I quote " I don't know what they did to it, and mine will be better"

Milsurp values are a bit of a paradox. With notable examples (IBM m1 carbines, Singer 1911s) they are generally only worth something once a certain number have been destroyed. And it is those destroyed examples that are raising the market price. I mean I used to find unmolested 1903s all day long for 250-400 or so not horribly long ago. But so many of them were sportorized for hunting weapons, then of course the Saving Private Ryan/videogame people got involved in the older stuff and it all went to hell. Demand went up, and upon seeing so few in their issue condition, the price followed suit quickly.


I hear you. My comment is not to say that prices should not rise as a basic market function - and even spike on actual rare or premium items. However, I do think that the quick rise on prices on certain more common things is a bit artificial.
 
Every one that is modified changes the market. Perhaps not quickly, but over time, the "there are 20 million of them" mantra starts to fade. Especially, speaking from a professional aspect here, nobody (read very few) wants to buy one to modify if it isn't original. I quite literally can't count the number of people who come in and want an unmolested Finnish mosin, or Hex receiver for the sole reason of chopping up and doing the same mod everyone else does. Cause and I quote " I don't know what they did to it, and mine will be better"
Here is an example with a French rifle, the MAS 49/56. It looks like this
784520_03_french_mas_49_56_military_gun_640.jpg

in its original incarnation. And then someone decided they can do better:
118770_01_mas_49_56_battle_rifle_640.jpg

which leads to the question: why trying to make a non AR rifle looks like an AR when there are perfectly good ARs that happen to look like ARs for a great price out there?

FALs suffer the same curse. A certain kind of people scrounge the internet forums begging for pristine Austrian barrels for the sole purpose to chop them to 16-18". They will not settle for, say, a barrel that was already cut down or even a US-made one. Oh no, it has to be original 21" barrel and pristine! And then some of them get later on angry that their "creation" does not get the same prices as an unmodified version.

Milsurp values are a bit of a paradox. With notable examples (IBM m1 carbines, Singer 1911s) they are generally only worth something once a certain number have been destroyed. And it is those destroyed examples that are raising the market price. I mean I used to find unmolested 1903s all day long for 250-400 or so not horribly long ago. But so many of them were sporterized for hunting weapons, then of course the Saving Private Ryan/videogame people got involved in the older stuff and it all went to hell. Demand went up, and upon seeing so few in their issue condition, the price followed suit quickly.

Don't forget Enemy at the Gate.

I hear you. My comment is not to say that prices should not rise as a basic market function - and even spike on actual rare or premium items. However, I do think that the quick rise on prices on certain more common things is a bit artificial.

Welcome to the wonderful world of speculative markets. How many people and companies took loans and bought every firearm and ammo and they could get before the election, counting/hoping for Hilary to win which would have caused Buying Hysteria until Jan 15th? And now a lot of them are choke full stuff tying up all that money gathering dust.

And then, of course, we have both parties which have not been particularly eager to (a) relax forearms importation, specially of complete rifles and (b) lift ban on buying Russian and Chinese and even European milsurp. After all, if they let you import a SVT 38 or a Chinese-made M14 clone, those sleeper cell firearms will brainwash you and hack into the Pentagon while you sleep! True fake story!
 
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Here is an example with a French rifle, the MAS 49/56. It looks like this
784520_03_french_mas_49_56_military_gun_640.jpg

in its original incarnation. And then someone decided they can do better:
118770_01_mas_49_56_battle_rifle_640.jpg

which leads to the question: why trying to make a non AR rifle looks like an AR when there are perfectly good ARs that happen to look like ARs for a great price out there?

FALs suffer the same curse. A lot of people scrounge the internet forums begging for pristine Austrian barrels for the sole purpose to chop them to 16-18". And then some of them get later on angry that their "creation" does not get the same prices as an unmodified version.



Don't forget Enemy at the Gate.



Welcome to the wonderful world of speculative markets. How many people and companies took loans and bought every firearm and ammo and they could get before the election, counting/hoping for Hilary to win which would have caused Buying Hysteria until Jan 15th? And now a lot of them are choke full stuff tying up all that money gathering dust.

And then, of course, we have both parties which have not been particularly eager to (a) relax forearms importation, specially of complete rifles and (b) lift ban on buying Russian and Chinese and even European milsurp. After all, if they let you import a SVT 38 or a Chinese-made M14 clone, they will brainwash you and hack into the Pentagon while you sleep! True fake story!

Same thing happens with sks rifles people spend a ton of money to turn it into a really really bad ak then want tneir money out of it for the mods and get buttmad when it doesnt sell
 
Same thing happens with sks rifles people spend a ton of money to turn it into a really really bad ak then want tneir money out of it for the mods and get buttmad when it doesnt sell

Which leads to the question: why would you buy a rifle that i snot related to an AR and spend real money trying to make it look like an AR? If you want an AR, what is wrong with getting... maybe.... wait for it... an AR?
 
I need a damn time machine. There's some stock I want to buy and then I'm going to slap the sense into old me who passed on buying 4 crates of sks's for $75 a piece a couple of decades ago.
 
I got into the surplus game a few years to late:( when the surplus's you want in shoot able shape are nearing the price of modern equivalents its hard to justify. Especially for a beginner like me. History and coolness are the whole point of them but since "this or that" feature result in a $200 price swing. It's difficult to stumble on a surplus you want and know it's good value if your new in the game. id love to have a gorgeous Garand, but for the same to a little more I can get a new m1a from Springfield. It's not the same but super similar and a known quality:oops: very frustrating...

Speaking of frustrating. Thanks to the jerk (actually super cool guy) I met at moss knob range last weekend. Can't recall his name. Could be a member here, didn't think to ask. He let me shoot his surplus Garand. In great shape. I had never fired one before. Dear lord so very sexy. Now I can't get them outta my head once again:rolleyes: The struggle is real!
There is nothing like them. They are truely addicting and in my opinion the best rifle ever made.
 
If you want a Garand get to know the civilian marksmanship program. They are still the only place you have a fighting chance of buying one for under $1K. Remember people do buy them from CMP just to turn around and try to double their investment on gunbroker.
 
Market forces fella's, I remember mil-surp prices being dirt cheap, as in 75 dollar Lee-Enfields, and 50 dollar and less Mosins..........
I wont even bring up ammo prices on mil-surp ammo in those days, suffice to say I truly miss those days.........
 
I was looking at a 1957 NRA American Rifleman last night, you want sticker shock?
1873 Springfield Trapdoor 45-70 = $9.75
NY State trade-in 45 ACP revolvers = $38
Remington 40X 22 LR = $120 MSRP

And, in 1957, the mailman would deliver any of these direct to your door.
 
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