Cops shoot homeowner at wrong house

Or that we are having yet another thread where the super citizens with immunity got it wrong and an innocent person is dead? There is certainly something pathetic here and it isn't the rush to judgment.
 
IrishCannon said:
There is so much bad information coming from armchair quarterbacks in this thread, and it's pathetic to see so many rush to judgement before all the information is presented.
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Got any good info to share? I’m interested.
 
Couple of things here. First the address issue. This was a residential neighborhood with plenty of other houses on that street. They are numbered odd on one side of the street and even on the other. Even if this house didn't have a number on it I doubt if there wasn't at least one with a number on it.

They approached 5305 but were looking for 5308. Which was on the opposite side of the street. It wasn't to difficult to determine which side of the street they should have been on. Maps should have shown them that. If they bothered to look.

It was their responsibility to find the correct house before approaching.

I recently watched a video where police came to a house to serve an eviction notice. They knocked on the door and got no answer and immediately had a locksmith begin drilling the lock. The owner was alerted by her security camera and asked them what they wanted. She was not home at the time. They told her about the eviction notice and she told them they were at the wrong house. The video shows one of the cops going back to the front of the house and you hear him say "oh s***". The numbers were clearly visible on the front of the house and 3 or 4 cops and the locksmith missed it. By then they had already damaged her lock and had to replace it. This was in broad daylight.

You carry a gun and following the safety rules is your responsibility. You also have the responsibility of making sure there is an actual threat before you discharge it.
The home owner had ever right to come to his door at night armed. The body cameras should show if he pointed it at the cops. If not, bad shoot.

Am I a cop hater? Not at all. My brother is a retired investigator for the sheriff's dept in his county.
 
Schattenreiter said:
They approached 5305 but were looking for 5308. Which was on the opposite side of the street. It wasn't to difficult to determine which side of the street they should have been on. Maps should have shown them that. If they bothered to look.
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One of the things that we learned and studied as part of our county AUXCOMM program was topographical mapping. In our case, we used a program called SARTOPO which we were granted "first responder" license status because of our affiliation with county emergency management. The program lets you pull up rather detailed maps of areas, and overlay things like land plots, etc. The license class we had also pulls up information like property owner's name. I am sure the cops have access to something similar, or even better, that could be used to do some basic recognizance of and familiarization with a location of interest before rolling the trucks.
 
noway2 said:
One of the things that we learned and studied as part of our county AUXCOMM program was topographical mapping. In our case, we used a program called SARTOPO which we were granted "first responder" license status because of our affiliation with county emergency management. The program lets you pull up rather detailed maps of areas, and overlay things like land plots, etc. The license class we had also pulls up information like property owner's name. I am sure the cops have access to something similar, or even better, that could be used to do some basic recognizance of and familiarization with a location of interest before rolling the trucks.
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Everyone can access their county's GIS maps and this will show property lines as well as owners name.
 
Waiting for the video.

Nothing done by humans is perfect. For example, the thread title indicates that the homeowner was at the wrong house. I’ve seen it take days to get a warrant for criminal activity at a residential location because the sheriff insisted on triple checking the address.

Doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t push to do better, but better means more cost and less liberty, that’s just the way it is. At the moment I’m content with the cost vs risk balance.
 
Schattenreiter said:
Everyone can access their county's GIS maps and this will show property lines as well as owners name.
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Yes, you can access the information. The point I was trying to make is that with the tools at their disposal, they don't even have to go look for it like you do. It's put right in front of them automatically with pretty pictures of the location.
 
Jayne said:
I finally broke my wife of that habit. No one comes to our house and knocks on the door, even my dad knows to text "we're here" when they're in the driveway and I'll meet them at the door. Unexpected knocks mean uninvited guests.



Upside to covid, that 6' bubble. We really should have kept that, even if it doesn't have anti-viral properties it was just nicer for people to back the f up when interacting in a public space.
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Yeah, we USED to call that 6' bubble "personal space"...
 
There's no excuse for this. If a pimple faced 17 year old in a clapped out honda can find the right house to deliver a pizza, the police can find the right house too.

End qualified immunity. Charge every officer involved in a wrong-address no knock with breaking and entering. Every bad shoot with murder. The problem will solve itself.
 
noway2 said:
One of the things that we learned and studied as part of our county AUXCOMM program was topographical mapping. In our case, we used a program called SARTOPO which we were granted "first responder" license status because of our affiliation with county emergency management. The program lets you pull up rather detailed maps of areas, and overlay things like land plots, etc. The license class we had also pulls up information like property owner's name. I am sure the cops have access to something similar, or even better, that could be used to do some basic recognizance of and familiarization with a location of interest before rolling the trucks.
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This is great for operational planning prior to serving high-risk warrants; but not going to be feasible for a patrol cop who just got a call from dispatch stating a woman's husband is beating the shit out of her at that moment.

There are other factors that aren't being considered such as terminal location access, security requirements for certain system access, etc. - Most cities across the country don't have access at the patrol level for things like this. It comes with a lot of bureaucratic red tape.
 
Jayne said:
Can't see it at all without a forkbook account. Maybe someone will rehost it for the rest of us.
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Figured out a way to do it without having Facebook myself.

 
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DrScaryGuy said:
well he did point a gun at them. so they will be cleared.
but they went from having the wrong door opening to a flying wall of lead in under 3 seconds.
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They blinded him immediately and yelled hands up. He might not have been able to tell they were police. At the volume they were announcing I wouldn't have heard that in my bedroom upstairs. I would have just heard someone annoying me banging on my door. Bad situation all around. Those kids are going to grow up without their dad now because those cops screwed up a house number.
 
Lack of strategy on both sides. They placed each other in no choice situations. It's going to keep happening unless some procedures change and education on both sides.

If they hadn't gone to the wrong house, if he hadn't opened the door, if they hadn't blinded him, if he didn't have a gun, if they had announced better...
 
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One big problem I have is that there appears to be a video doorbell and they never used it. Police should have rung it, homeowner should have used it before opening the door.
 
mossad ayoob had a video on answering your door holding a gun…

Shouldn’t have opened the door blinded by light holding a gun. Tactically stupid.

Bad guys don’t usually light up the place with flashlights…

Cops should have confirmed address.

Raise your gun towards ANYONE and you’re already in deep kimchi. Consider the consequences of presenting your weapon…often it’s worth it but again, baddies don’t use lots of lights and don’t knock and announce themselves loudly as cops multiple times (usually…obviously there are exceptions to both points…). Presenting weapon without knowing the threat is bad tactics.

My personal opinion - tragic and I’m so very sorry for this family but the cops had a good shoot based strictly on man presenting and looks like pointing the gun but there should be more to justify a shoot than that especially with the other issues at play like wrong address.

But I’m not a cop and try to avoid disadvantageous tactical situations (answering the front door wo a plan, facing into the lights and presenting my gun, etc., etc.). This should go into the training books for both LEOs and gun owners as a warning.
 
I tried to see if there are any stats on the number of homeowners shot by police by mistake but couldn't find any. Didn't do an in-depth search but does the gooberment even compile those numbers on itself? Probably not. Usually when the gooberment does something wrong they hide it.
 
The only other thing I'll say about this is no one clearly knew they were police inside the house. After they shot him the wife and daughter both called the police believing they were under attack.
 
ChickenHawk said:
The only other thing I'll say about this is no one clearly knew they were police inside the house.
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The average reasonable person has no reason to think they would be.

At the same time, the cops need to tone down the tactics and get the notion that someone being armed is automatically a threat for which they can respond with deadly force. This sort of thing, which is the result of militarized policing that really took off in the 1990s, needs to stop happening. Imagine what would happen if normal people started treating cops like the threat they are? (Herschel at the Captains Journal correctly points out, you're never in more danger than when in the presence of cops). When I was growing up, there was a common refrain mentioned in civics lessons that applies here: it is better for the guilty to go free than for the innocent to be wrongfully harmed.
 
noway2 said:
The average reasonable person has no reason to think they would be.

At the same time, the cops need to tone down the tactics and get the notion that someone being armed is automatically a threat for which they can respond with deadly force. This sort of thing, which is the result of militarized policing that really took off in the 1990s, needs to stop happening. Imagine what would happen if normal people started treating cops like the threat they are? (Herschel at the Captains Journal correctly points out, you're never in more danger than when in the presence of cops). When I was growing up, there was a common refrain mentioned in civics lessons that applies here: it is better for the guilty to go free than for the innocent to be wrongfully harmed.
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so during the clinton years? back when they started funneling mil surplus to police?
its funny because apparently obama was aghast when he "found out" (read: made it to the news) that his administration was also using mil surplus to oppress innocent children that would fit into his "if i had a son" speech. He vowed to end it, although records show that did not happen.
 
There is also a Mossad Ayoob video pertaining to someone banging on your door late at night - he discusses that most of the time, late at night, it is your local LEO for some reason/the other



I have a plan and that involves going to an nearby window where I can see the front walk/steps and hollering at whomever is out there -
 
amyracecar said:
I have a plan and that involves going to an nearby window where I can see the front walk/steps and hollering at whomever is out there -
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Be careful with that too. Somewhere in these pages is a story of a guy getting shot through the window of his home by a cop that was investigating .... something ... and thought he saw a guy with a gun.
 
amyracecar said:
There is also a Mossad Ayoob video pertaining to someone banging on your door late at night - he discusses that most of the time, late at night, it is your local LEO for some reason/the other



I have a plan and that involves going to an nearby window where I can see the front walk/steps and hollering at whomever is out there -
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Yep. That’s the video I was referring to.
 
noway2 said:
Be careful with that too. Somewhere in these pages is a story of a guy getting shot through the window of his home by a cop that was investigating .... something ... and thought he saw a guy with a gun.
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There is always gonna be some risk - I am just trying to mitigate it to the best of my ability/situation

Also - LEO tend to not see women as a threat - when I was younger, I got ordered out of my car on more than one occasion but never had weapons drawn on me
 
amyracecar said:
There is also a Mossad Ayoob video pertaining to someone banging on your door late at night - he discusses that most of the time, late at night, it is your local LEO for some reason/the other



I have a plan and that involves going to an nearby window where I can see the front walk/steps and hollering at whomever is out there -
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I plan on calling 911 in the event something like this happens. They can establish in a hurry if there really are cops at my door, all while I am safely indoors.
 
barf said:
The wife, who was shooting back.
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Because she didn't know they were cops. She and her daughter both called 911 individually while the wife was shooting.
 
DrScaryGuy said:
well he did point a gun at them. so they will be cleared.
but they went from having the wrong door opening to a flying wall of lead in under 3 seconds.
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yep, agree. they'll be easily cleared.

the 'knock and announce' was pretty weak, but he did run into the light with his gun up so that's going to get you dead in a hurry.
 
Jayne said:
yep, agree. they'll be easily cleared.

the 'knock and announce' was pretty weak, but he did run into the light with his gun up so that's going to get you dead in a hurry.
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It does make me wonder what the average reaction would be if you're already holding a gun at your own door and then get blinded while someone is yelling for you to put your hands up.

How many would point a gun versus ducking back inside? Would the cops have shot as well if he ducked back inside since he was being told to put his hands up? Could the motion with the gun have been him raising it in a sign of surrender? There are a lot of what ifs that would never be asked if the cops didn't screw up something so simple.
 
ChickenHawk said:
How many would point a gun versus ducking back inside? Would the cops have shot as well if he ducked back inside since he was being told to put his hands up? Could the motion with the gun have been him raising it in a sign of surrender? There are a lot of what ifs that would never be asked if the cops didn't screw up something so simple.
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He had no chance to do anything, the door was lit, he walked into the light and got smoked. I'm sure he couldn't hear the commands over all the gunfire and didn't have time to comply even if he wanted to since the bullets arrived at about the same time as the sound.

I know we don't like to mandate training, but damn, get some basic tactical training. If you've got bad guys setup on the porch...

1. don't open the door
2. don't go running out blind into their ambush

from the deceased perspective there was an unknown number of unknown bad guys out front... so running right into them was dumb, that's some 'call of duty' action right there. stay inside, fall back and setup your own ambush position, call 911 to get medical on the way and just sit tight. why go outside into the fight at all?
 
Jayne said:
He had no chance to do anything, the door was lit, he walked into the light and got smoked. I'm sure he couldn't hear the commands over all the gunfire and didn't have time to comply even if he wanted to since the bullets arrived at about the same time as the sound.

I know we don't like to mandate training, but damn, get some basic tactical training. If you've got bad guys setup on the porch...

1. don't open the door
2. don't go running out blind into their ambush

from the deceased perspective there was an unknown number of unknown bad guys out front... so running right into them was dumb, that's some 'call of duty' action right there. stay inside, fall back and setup your own ambush position, call 911 to get medical on the way and just sit tight. why go outside into the fight at all?
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It doesn't help that they were falling back when he finally came to the door either. He had probably a 1000 lumen light right on his face. His job isn't to be tactical. There are two guys that started the crappy chain reaction of bad results, and they have qualified immunity.

Maybe LEO's would be more careful if they could get manslaughter charges for killing someone due to their screw ups. I'm not antipolice by any means, but when you take the moral component out and say it was a good shoot because he raised a firearm it bugs me. They were on his property for no reason.

As to you saying he had no time to comply because they shot him as they issued commands that is an issue in itself.

So many people blame the victim for being in the wrong place at the wrong time. The police getting a pass for hosing a guy that they woke up in the middle of the night just isn't a good look if you want people to trust your institution.
 
And I guess I'll never even go to the door. I'll wait upstairs and wait for them to break the door in if someone is outside yelling police. Then I'll just have people saying they were justified shooting me because I didn't answer the door and comply with demands.
 
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