CA bar shooting

Exactly. People wanna talk tough and how they needed armed this and that. BS.

When someone has the drop on you, its a different situation. Combine that with a crowded panicked room....the gunman is shooting whoever and wherever, meanwhile a good guy has to aim at one moving target while avoiding all the other panicked moving targets. You think you're gonna be a hero? Nah...you're gonna get the hell out.


no-one-will-remember-you_o_3311489.jpg
 
Now they’re reporting he was a military vet and had PTSD ...

I can just imagine Feinstein, Pelosi and Moonbeam along with their fellow gun grabbers starting in on veterans not having guns now as part of their gun control legislation ideas.

Just because he is a military vet doesn't mean he couldn't be a leftist POS with a politcal agenda.
 
Last edited:
Okay, we here speak of the what if’s quite a bit ... I gotta ask what if this happened here in the Carolinas and you were in said club/bar? In NC even if the club/bar was not posted just one swig of beer means you are not allowed to carry under your CHP. Go a little farther and say you’re the DD for the evening and drinking a soda so you actually could be armed ... the club/bar is fairly large, a couple hundred people there, not to good of lighting plus a smoke grenade’s hinderance, etc and now add people are running and screaming everywhere ... what would YOU actually do?

I’ll freely admit I’d most likely be a chickenshit and would likely act to save myself, my family and my friends (if I really like ‘em enough). I’d be looking for cover and to GTFO ... unless I was cornered and had no way out which then I’m the 3rd monkey on Noah’s ramp. I have no delusions and know my limitations so as much as I’d like to think I’d draw my subcompact 9mm and save the day if I did I doubt it would go like some movie hero’s scene.

Now as to the situation as has been reported especially makes me respect that LEO who “ran towards the trouble” rather than away and helped the end the attack and keep the dead and wound numbers lower ... he knew this was good ... smoke has been popped in the building and he hears gun fire but still goes in ... Godspeed Sgt Helus of the Ventura County Sheriff’s department.

If you didn't think this through after Aurora, or Orlando, or San Bernadino, or any of the many other fish-in-a-barrel mass shootings it's definitely time now. I've played scenarios games that involved a paper bad guy, me with a pistol and a crowd of people doing random/chaotic panic mode stuff including interacting with me. In a crowded room kill zone it's really really unlikely that I would be able to successfully engage an active shooter without adding to the harm he's causing. My plan is to find cover and GTFO as fast as possible and a big part of that is just knowing where the exits are.
 
If you didn't think this through after Aurora, or Orlando, or San Bernadino, or any of the many other fish-in-a-barrel mass shootings it's definitely time now. I've played scenarios games that involved a paper bad guy, me with a pistol and a crowd of people doing random/chaotic panic mode stuff including interacting with me. In a crowded room kill zone it's really really unlikely that I would be able to successfully engage an active shooter without adding to the harm he's causing. My plan is to find cover and GTFO as fast as possible and a big part of that is just knowing where the exits are.

Gee, you aren't going to do the John Wick dive, roll head shot across a crowded room at 50 yards? With your ultra compact pocket gun of course. I hear it just takes a little training. ;)
 
Now they’re reporting he was a military vet and had PTSD ...

I can just imagine Feinstein, Pelosi and Moonbeam along with their fellow gun grabbers starting in on veterans not having guns now as part of their gun control legislation ideas.

He was a Marine according to the UK Daily Mail. He reportedly used a Glock .45 and smoke grenades. Police were called to his residence in April for a disturbance call. They had a psych eval performed on him, but he was not committed.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...police-officer-opens-fire-California-bar.html
 
"modified the magazine"

Look for a hue and cry against magazine extensions commonly used in the shooting sports. Arredondo, Hyve, Taran Tactical, etc....
 
"modified the magazine"

Look for a hue and cry against magazine extensions commonly used in the shooting sports. Arredondo, Hyve, Taran Tactical, etc....

Actually most magazine extensions cannot be sold in Kalifornia already, but I do see your point that there will be cries to restrict magazine capacity once again.

The one extended magazine for a Glock 21 that comes to my mind is the 25 round ones for the Kriss Vector. Everything else is only like a +4 as best I can recall.

https://kriss-usa.com/store/magazines/kriss-magex-25-rd-glock-21-magazine-193

If the Dem's star bleating about gun control, magazine and or magazine restrictions again, I foresee another round of panic buying and potentially shortages. On the up side it should give a nice boost to the gun industry for Q4.
 
Actually most magazine extensions cannot be sold in Kalifornia already, but I do see your point that there will be cries to restrict magazine capacity once again.

The one extended magazine for a Glock 21 that comes to my mind is the 25 round ones for the Kriss Vector. Everything else is only like a +4 as best I can recall.

https://kriss-usa.com/store/magazines/kriss-magex-25-rd-glock-21-magazine-193

If the Dem's star bleating about gun control, magazine and or magazine restrictions again, I foresee another round of panic buying and potentially shortages. On the up side it should give a nice boost to the gun industry for Q4.

It was a pistol, I doubt you'll see the big run up on stuff like San Bernie was because it was just a Glock. Same deal with the Charleston shooter.......wasn't a huge bump event.
 
Gee, you aren't going to do the John Wick dive, roll head shot across a crowded room at 50 yards? With your ultra compact pocket gun of course. I hear it just takes a little training. ;)

If you can't John Wick your way out of a mass shooting apparently you're weak minded & no one will remember you. Just a little training is all I need I guess.
 
It was a pistol, I doubt you'll see the big run up on stuff like San Bernie was because it was just a Glock. Same deal with the Charleston shooter.......wasn't a huge bump event.

True, but you never know, the D's might be feeling frisky just overtaking the House. I'm almost willing to bet money Feinstein will trot out her Assault Weapons Ban legislation once again.

I doubt anything will get much traction, but I do anticipate much bloviating from the D's.
 
True, but you never know, the D's might be feeling frisky just overtaking the House. I'm almost willing to bet money Feinstein will trot out her Assault Weapons Ban legislation once again.

I doubt anything will get much traction, but I do anticipate much bloviating from the D's.

I certainly hope they try every and all tricks they have to come at the 2A. Pretty sure they'll show their true colors and it will only help solidify the people who believe in the RKBA. NRA probably needs the fundraising boost also.
 
True, but you never know, the D's might be feeling frisky just overtaking the House. I'm almost willing to bet money Feinstein will trot out her Assault Weapons Ban legislation once again.

I doubt anything will get much traction, but I do anticipate much bloviating from the D's.

They'll trot it out and pass it in the House on a party line vote and then it will die there. They'll campaign on "Republican obstruction" in 2020. Republicans will campaign on "we're protecting your gun rights" while having done nothing to advance pro gun legislation in 2017-2018 when they had full control. The sun will continue to rise and both parties will continue to fund raise off the issue.
 
Exactly. People wanna talk tough and how they needed armed this and that. BS.

When someone has the drop on you, its a different situation. Combine that with a crowded panicked room....the gunman is shooting whoever and wherever, meanwhile a good guy has to aim at one moving target while avoiding all the other panicked moving targets. You think you're gonna be a hero? Nah...you're gonna get the hell out.
I'm going to hide under a table in the corner (because I like to be able to see a whole room), and look around for a way out and pray nobody sees me! If I don't see any way out, I'm under that table, in as small a little ball as a fat lady can squeeze herself into, squished up in the corner or against the wall, until it gets quiet. Sad to say that, but it's probably what I'd do if I didn't pass out from fright first! And I'm thinking some pee is going to come out at some point, too.
 
All the background checks, waiting periods, mag restrictions, permits, etc are only good at the time they are processed.
Just like a driver license, nothing to stop you from driving like a maniac once you walk out the door.
 
Exactly. People wanna talk tough and how they needed armed this and that. BS.

When someone has the drop on you, its a different situation. Combine that with a crowded panicked room....the gunman is shooting whoever and wherever, meanwhile a good guy has to aim at one moving target while avoiding all the other panicked moving targets. You think you're gonna be a hero? Nah...you're gonna get the hell out.
The guy's busy, it's not like he's holding a gun on you.
 
Last edited:

Stuff like this just makes me shake my head. I am not sure what scares me more the gunmen like this guy or guys who think they are Heros in waiting.

My duty is to my family, my friends and my loved ones. I carry a gun so that I can protect myself as a tool of last resort. It is not to be a hero. Certainly those who care about me will remember my name. To suggest otherwise is a bit absurd.
 
*Shit this ink on the election ballots has not even dried, they said they were gonna push the gun control again.
I am surprised it happened so soon

I figured the guy looked at the calendar wrong as was supposed to act last week, before the elections.
 
They'll trot it out and pass it in the House on a party line vote and then it will die there. They'll campaign on "Republican obstruction" in 2020. Republicans will campaign on "we're protecting your gun rights" while having done nothing to advance pro gun legislation in 2017-2018 when they had full control. The sun will continue to rise and both parties will continue to fund raise off the issue.

and so it begins:

https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018...s-immediate-legislation-response-gun-violence
 
To assume that all of us will become John Wick in a mass shooting situation is moronic. The only thing more moronic is to think that no one will, or could, if pressed do so.

Ive met quite a few of the people posting here on the thread, and yes, there are those who would probably beat their feet out the door with a quickness. I also know a few of these guys who would cut fence and sort some stuff out.

Where I fall? Depends. I am no hero, nor will I ever claim to have it in me to be one. But I will pray that if the time ever comes that I will conduct myself in such a way as to do my family proud. Whether that means getting out alive while running like crazy, or by pile driving the bad guy.
 
Last edited:
Stuff like this just makes me shake my head. I am not sure what scares me more the gunmen like this guy or guys who think they are Heros in waiting.
(Not replying to you specifically, but using this as a segue)
I don't see it as a matter of being a hero. Your first duty is to yourself and your family. You help nobody by getting killed. It's going to be chaotic pandemonium and you need to keep your head on your shoulders. You need to assess the situation, identify exits, cover, and concealment. Look for opportunities to get to a safer space or get out. It is also possible that you might have an opportunity to stop the attack, and if so and you use a gun, the rules such as knowing your backstop and what not apply. It is also possible someone will jump infront of you at the worst time, just as it's possible you'll be tagged by the gunman.

There are no guarantees. There are also no safe spaces. These things can happen anywhere, anytime, without warning. No legislation, no prohibition, no law, is going to stop them.
 
Looks like they're calling a 6 second reload fast, and drawing attention to the fact that he trained with the firearm.

So they want "responsible gun owners" to train so they can use the safely, but then demonize those who are proficient with firearms as a more lethal killer. Got it.
 
Exactly. People wanna talk tough and how they needed armed this and that. BS.

When someone has the drop on you, its a different situation. Combine that with a crowded panicked room....the gunman is shooting whoever and wherever, meanwhile a good guy has to aim at one moving target while avoiding all the other panicked moving targets. You think you're gonna be a hero? Nah...you're gonna get the hell out.

It would be exceptionally difficult to figure out who was the shooter in those conditions.

I worked for a cash in transit company and went through a simulated shooting program through the company. It used a movie screen and a scenario/first person view and a Beretta 92 hooked up to an air tank so you got realistic recoil when shooting. Each scenario was LEO oriented and the hardest one was being inside, in a crowd, and having a perp start shooting. It was highly realistic and the stress induced was incredible. Trying to figure out who was shooting was impossible with the pushing, running, and falling crowd. I got killed before I could even take a shot the first time. It was eye opening to say the least.
 
At my daughters’ martial arts class, they offered a firearm awareness session for adult students and parents taught by a dad who is a cop. It was an eye-opening experience for me.
The most valuable part for me - we were hanging out waiting for the session to start, and the guy unexpectedly came out with a blue (plastic training) gun yelling “everyone on the ground now!” We all obeyed, and he proceeded to (fake) shoot every one of us. Then he said let’s try this again, and think about how you will react knowing what just happened. He did the same thing again, and some people still hit the floor. One guy grappled with him but got “shot”, the next guy running to meet him knocked him down and may have been “shot”, and I was next on him with my hand on the gun pushing it above his head and I landed on him, at which point he stopped the exercise.
Now it’s not a totally realistic scenario, because we were expecting it the second time, but my take aways:
- I couldnt understand why some people who had just been “shot” the first time acted the exact same way the second time, waiting to be shot again
- even though I reacted the second time, it took the guy running ahead of me before I made my move, even though I knew what was going to to happen and that the gun was fake. That really bothered me, and I don’t think I’ll ever forget it.
- if enough people fight back, you have the chance that less will be killed in the end
The rest of the session was valuable too. Like how to take a gun or immobilize it in someone’s hand if they are within reach. And the fact that not all people have great aim, especially with pistols, and especially at a moving target. I was the only one there who shoots (other than the cop), and I told everyone they should try target shooting with a pistol and see that just pointing and shooting without aiming/practice does not work like it does in the movies.
That’s not to say that I could stop a shooter. It just made me think about the options and outcomes. And that one way or the other (running or shooting/fighting) I’d be moving, not standing still to be shot without a chance.
 
At my daughters’ martial arts class, they offered a firearm awareness session for adult students and parents taught by a dad who is a cop. It was an eye-opening experience for me.
The most valuable part for me - we were hanging out waiting for the session to start, and the guy unexpectedly came out with a blue (plastic training) gun yelling “everyone on the ground now!” We all obeyed, and he proceeded to (fake) shoot every one of us. Then he said let’s try this again, and think about how you will react knowing what just happened. He did the same thing again, and some people still hit the floor. One guy grappled with him but got “shot”, the next guy running to meet him knocked him down and may have been “shot”, and I was next on him with my hand on the gun pushing it above his head and I landed on him, at which point he stopped the exercise.
Now it’s not a totally realistic scenario, because we were expecting it the second time, but my take aways:
- I couldnt understand why some people who had just been “shot” the first time acted the exact same way the second time, waiting to be shot again
- even though I reacted the second time, it took the guy running ahead of me before I made my move, even though I knew what was going to to happen and that the gun was fake. That really bothered me, and I don’t think I’ll ever forget it.
- if enough people fight back, you have the chance that less will be killed in the end
The rest of the session was valuable too. Like how to take a gun or immobilize it in someone’s hand if they are within reach. And the fact that not all people have great aim, especially with pistols, and especially at a moving target. I was the only one there who shoots (other than the cop), and I told everyone they should try target shooting with a pistol and see that just pointing and shooting without aiming/practice does not work like it does in the movies.
That’s not to say that I could stop a shooter. It just made me think about the options and outcomes. And that one way or the other (running or shooting/fighting) I’d be moving, not standing still to be shot without a chance.

I think this makes a very good case for the either running or fighting, don't do nothing. Act one way or the other, and when the decision is made, stick with it. Run like the devil is after you, or fight like the third monkey trying to get on the ark and it just started raining.
 
I've got a feeling Trump is going to roll over.
The guy who literally wrote the book on negotiation might be willing to make a deal? shocker! :)
And now he has a split Congress to negotiate with. But I don't think he'll be dumb enough to sign anything anti-gun or pro-immigration before 2020. But as another president once remarked (and to the Russians, ironically) "After my election I have more flexibility"
 
Last edited:
At my daughters’ martial arts class, they offered a firearm awareness session for adult students and parents taught by a dad who is a cop. It was an eye-opening experience for me.
The most valuable part for me - we were hanging out waiting for the session to start, and the guy unexpectedly came out with a blue (plastic training) gun yelling “everyone on the ground now!” We all obeyed, and he proceeded to (fake) shoot every one of us. Then he said let’s try this again, and think about how you will react knowing what just happened. He did the same thing again, and some people still hit the floor. One guy grappled with him but got “shot”, the next guy running to meet him knocked him down and may have been “shot”, and I was next on him with my hand on the gun pushing it above his head and I landed on him, at which point he stopped the exercise.
Now it’s not a totally realistic scenario, because we were expecting it the second time, but my take aways:
- I couldnt understand why some people who had just been “shot” the first time acted the exact same way the second time, waiting to be shot again
- even though I reacted the second time, it took the guy running ahead of me before I made my move, even though I knew what was going to to happen and that the gun was fake. That really bothered me, and I don’t think I’ll ever forget it.
- if enough people fight back, you have the chance that less will be killed in the end
The rest of the session was valuable too. Like how to take a gun or immobilize it in someone’s hand if they are within reach. And the fact that not all people have great aim, especially with pistols, and especially at a moving target. I was the only one there who shoots (other than the cop), and I told everyone they should try target shooting with a pistol and see that just pointing and shooting without aiming/practice does not work like it does in the movies.
That’s not to say that I could stop a shooter. It just made me think about the options and outcomes. And that one way or the other (running or shooting/fighting) I’d be moving, not standing still to be shot without a chance.

This is a great post. The scenario you first described would prompt me to act. If I got down and was not the first person to be shot I would draw and engage because at that point I have to assume I am next. I am in grave danger. My life is one the line at that point so acting gives me the best chance of surviving. At that point for me if I don't act I am simply waiting for my turn to die. It is time to deploy the weapon of last resort. It may or may not increase my actual chances of surviving but at that point I believe I would act. At the same time I understand that some people do not have the ability or will to fight. I do not think less of them or thing better of myself because I "think" I would act in that scenario.


Now it’s not a totally realistic scenario, because we were expecting it the second time, but my take aways:
- I couldnt understand why some people who had just been “shot” the first time acted the exact same way the second time, waiting to be shot again
- even though I reacted the second time, it took the guy running ahead of me before I made my move, even though I knew what was going to to happen and that the gun was fake. That really bothered me, and I don’t think I’ll ever forget it.
- if enough people fight back, you have the chance that less will be killed in the end

In the second run I think that there are reasons why people reacted as they did. I think the fact you knew it was coming and that it was a simulation greatly effected the way you and the other 2 guys who chose to fight.

Many people are not "fighters" it is not in their DNA. They do not believe they have the skill or the will to fight. It does not make them weak or lessor human beings it is simply the way they are. Also you made an assumption that the exact same things would happen and that prompted you to attack. There is just as much of a chance that the scenario would go down differently. Everytime there is a robbery with a gun where people are instructed to "get on the ground" it does not end with the execution of all in the room. I don't know for sure but I would imagine the majority of the time when those words are uttered no one is shot. People get robbed but not executed. It is not unreasonable to believe the second run would end differently in the real world.

It is human instinct to hesitate when confronted even when you knew it was a simulation. Honestly there is always safety in numbers and the more people confronting and attacking the attacker will up the chances of success for the group. However, I would contend that this will not always be the case. In an active shooter situation multiple people drawing guns and engaging a shooter + LEO arriving on scene can result in more deaths including those good samaritans who choose to engage. More unidentified people with guns could cause confusion and result in more harm.

In the end every situation will be different. Everyone must choose for themselves if, when and how to engage or not engage. I take issue with the mentality that I would always engage just as much as I take issue with the I will never engage mentality. I really take issue when people portray themselves as some sort of hero for taking on the engage mindset. Casting a negative light on those who would get the **** out of dodge. Hopefully none of us will ever have to make that choice but I am willing to bet no one can predict 100% how they will react to these real life and death situations.
 
Last edited:
Flight 93

That is a unique scenario. When people choose to act they knew one way or another they were going to die. They understood what the plane was going to be used for if they did not act. It does not make their actions less heroic but it was a huge variable in the scenario. Those who fought heroically chose to die with their boots on and in the process saved others.
 
Last edited:
Back
Top Bottom