CA bar shooting

To assume that all of us will become John Wick in a mass shooting situation is moronic. The only thing more moronic is to think that no one will, or could, if pressed do so.

Ive met quite a few of the people posting here on the thread, and yes, there are those who would probably beat their feet out the door with a quickness. I also know a few of these guys who would cut fence and sort some stuff out.

Where I fall? Depends. I am no hero, nor will I ever claim to have it in me to be one. But I will pray that if the time ever comes that I will conduct myself in such a way as to do my family proud. Whether that means getting out alive while running like crazy, or by pile driving the bad guy.

Yep, it all depends on the exact scenario. I'd likely not take a long head shot with my skills, but if he was distracted and I could get close enough to not risk shooting the wrong person I'd go for it. Too many possibilities to argue about on a gun forum. It would be different for all of us.
 
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I've got a feeling Trump is going to roll over.

That would not be shocking. New York City guy at heart. I have never been convinced of his understanding of the Constitution or love of the 2nd. My guess is he'll trade some gun bill for something he wants at some point. And both things will be fairly superficial and allow the parties to fund raise more on their pet issues.
 
Yep, it all depends on the exact scenario. I'd likely not take a long head shot with my skills, but if he was distracted and I could get close enough to not risk shooting the wronf person I'd go for it. Too many possibilities to argue about on a gun forum. It would be different for all of us.

THIS!!!! Every scenario will be different. There would be so many variables to contend with.
 
Also remember you don't always have to use a gun to be a hero. As the shooter reloaded people threw barstools through windows and helped people get out of the building. People helped others get out of the way of harm without a gun. Sometime we forget that when the only tool you have is a hammer everything looks like a nail. Heroic people helped save lives and did not need a firearm to do it.
 
Also remember you don't always have to use a gun to be a hero. As the shooter reloaded people threw barstools through windows and helped people get out of the building. People helped others get out of the way of harm without a gun. Sometime we forget that when the only tool you have is a hammer everything looks like a nail. Heroic people helped save lives and did not need a firearm to do it.
Nicely said.
 
It would be exceptionally difficult to figure out who was the shooter in those conditions.

I worked for a cash in transit company and went through a simulated shooting program through the company. It used a movie screen and a scenario/first person view and a Beretta 92 hooked up to an air tank so you got realistic recoil when shooting. Each scenario was LEO oriented and the hardest one was being inside, in a crowd, and having a perp start shooting. It was highly realistic and the stress induced was incredible. Trying to figure out who was shooting was impossible with the pushing, running, and falling crowd. I got killed before I could even take a shot the first time. It was eye opening to say the least.
They have one of these simulators at Sportsman's Lodge in Yadkinville. They have a Sig and a Glock and I think were working on adding a rifle last I checked.
I'd encourage all the John Wicks in this thread to try out some of the harder scenarios.
 
Whether that means getting out alive while running like crazy, or by pile driving the bad guy.
I just hope if any mass shooting is stopped by a pile driver that security footage is available.
 
Is no one else just blown a way at that fact that apparently some of these folks at this shooting were also at the Vegas shooting? As much a the media disagrees, these are lighting strike/ shark attack like events and some of these unlucky bastards were at BOTH! I would wonder if someone was trying to tell me something about something- very least would stop going to country venues.
 
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Is no one else just blown a way at that fact that apparently some of these folks at this shooting were also at the Vegas shooting? As much a the media disagrees, these are lighting strike/ shark attack like events and some of these unlucky bastards were at BOTH! I would wonder if someone was trying to tell me something about something- very least would be don't go to country venues.
They definitely won the bad lottery.
 
Exactly. People wanna talk tough and how they needed armed this and that. BS.

When someone has the drop on you, its a different situation. Combine that with a crowded panicked room....the gunman is shooting whoever and wherever, meanwhile a good guy has to aim at one moving target while avoiding all the other panicked moving targets. You think you're gonna be a hero? Nah...you're gonna get the hell out.

I think most people just want the opportunity to defend themselves how they see fit.


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Is no one else just blown a way at that fact that apparently some of these folks at this shooting were also at the Vegas shooting? As much a the media disagrees, these are lighting strike/ shark attack like events and some of these unlucky bastards were at BOTH! I would wonder if someone was trying to tell me something about something- very least would be don't go to country venues.

This would make a great movie plot. Evil bad guys are trying to kill someone. First their crew kills all those people in Vegas, but fails to get the target. Then they plot another attempt in CA and miss again. Intrepid FBI investigator slowly figures out hot young heiress to a fidget spinner fortune is the target. He saves her, they fall in love and sail off to Catalina Island.
 
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Let those cowards come.

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They have one of these simulators at Sportsman's Lodge in Yadkinville. They have a Sig and a Glock and I think were working on adding a rifle last I checked.
I'd encourage all the John Wicks in this thread to try out some of the harder scenarios.

The scenario that left me standing there saying "what just happened" was serving a warrant on a guy who looked like Grizzly Adams living in a house trailer. Your video partner tells you this guy is bad news and shouldn't be trusted. You bang on the door, say POLICE, open the door and step in side. This huge guy is sitting on a couch reading the paper. You say something like "Police, don't move!" and he replies by dropping the newspaper which concealed a Bowie knife and before I could blink he was across the floor and I was dead.

The instructor previously had cautioned me that I couldn't just go around shooting people who don't comply with my instructions. After I was dead he asked me what I did wrong. I replied that I didn't shoot him as soon as he stirred from the couch. We did it again and Grizzly was dead as soon as he started to get to his feet but of course that isn't how real life goes. The instructor said that a person can cover 10 ft in just a few seconds. It was intense.
 
That is a unique scenario. When people choose to act they knew one way or another they were going to die. They understood what the plane was going to be used for if they did not act. It does not make their actions less heroic but it was a huge variable in the scenario. Those who fought heroically chose to die with their boots on and in the process saved others.
I agree, plus they could have taken control of the plane, difficult but not impossible.
Landing the plane at military airfield or airport with long runways via radio conversations with tower and pilots or cell phone if radio disabled, along with the flight manuals on board.
 
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I think most people just want the opportunity to defend themselves how they see fit.

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BINGO!!! I want to have the choice.

Funny thing though if I were alone or with just say my wife and/or kid instead of in a crowd like that club I pretty damn sure I’d actually act quicker and way more aggressively. But one of my biggest problems would be the thought of hitting an innocent bystander ... I almost think that would haunt me more than not acting and just saving my own ass.

Another thing to remember if ever in a crap storm like this is be ready to get real compliant real fast at the first sign of LEOs ... they don’t know if you’re a good guy or bad guy.

Again ... TRAINING and PRACTICE FOR REAL WORLD is something you’d better keep on top of because just luck and pray ain’t something I’d bet on if ever caught up in something even remotely close to this.
 
Murphy's Law of Combat: No plan survives the first contact intact.

We train and train and train in the Marine Corps (and all services) for combat operations. You NEVER know what you will do until you are IN the situation. Sometimes it's muscle memory or training that takes over without thinking about it. Sometimes the "bravest/toughest" guy in training falls to pieces when the real bullets start flying and he sees the guy next to him get splattered. But I've seen corpsmen run through hell to treat a wounded Marine. You just don't KNOW how you will react until you're there.
 
Murphy's Law of Combat: No plan survives the first contact intact.

We train and train and train in the Marine Corps (and all services) for combat operations. You NEVER know what you will do until you are IN the situation. Sometimes it's muscle memory or training that takes over without thinking about it. Sometimes the "bravest/toughest" guy in training falls to pieces when the real bullets start flying and he sees the guy next to him get splattered. But I've seen corpsmen run through hell to treat a wounded Marine. You just don't KNOW how you will react until you're there.
This ^^^^^^^^^^^^^
 
The scenario that left me standing there saying "what just happened" was serving a warrant on a guy who looked like Grizzly Adams living in a house trailer. Your video partner tells you this guy is bad news and shouldn't be trusted. You bang on the door, say POLICE, open the door and step in side. This huge guy is sitting on a couch reading the paper. You say something like "Police, don't move!" and he replies by dropping the newspaper which concealed a Bowie knife and before I could blink he was across the floor and I was dead.

The instructor previously had cautioned me that I couldn't just go around shooting people who don't comply with my instructions. After I was dead he asked me what I did wrong. I replied that I didn't shoot him as soon as he stirred from the couch. We did it again and Grizzly was dead as soon as he started to get to his feet but of course that isn't how real life goes. The instructor said that a person can cover 10 ft in just a few seconds. It was intense.

So if you don't shoot him you are dead, and if you do you are a murderer. I guess the key to doing it right is to not open the man's door. Then it's all good.
 
Is no one else just blown a way at that fact that apparently some of these folks at this shooting were also at the Vegas shooting? As much a the media disagrees, these are lighting strike/ shark attack like events and some of these unlucky bastards were at BOTH! I would wonder if someone was trying to tell me something about something- very least would be don't go to country venues.

It appears their was a Rt 91 Harvest Festival survivors group that met there quite regularly, and unfortunately one of them was indeed killed last night.

Strange coincidence or was this group possibly targeted by the shooter?

DailyMail said:
In a cruel twist of fate, dozens of people who survived the Las Vegas shooting were inside the Borderline bar when Long opened fire.

'It's the second time in about a year and a month that this has happened,' Nick Champion told OnSceneTV. 'I was in the Las Vegas Route 91 mass shooting, as well as probably 50 or 60 others who were in the building at the same time as me tonight.'

Champion and his friends were inside country music bar Borderline Bar and Grill for student night Wednesday, when ex-marine Ian Long, 29, stormed in, shooting dead 12 before turning the gun on himself.

He and other Las Vegas survivors considered Borderline a 'place of healing' and gathered at the same bar for a memorial on a student night earlier this year. The group of survivors posed in front of a Borderline sign while holding a Route 91 Harvest banner.

'It's a big thing for us. We all are a big family, and unfortunately, this family got hit twice,' Champion said.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...hows-gunman-Ian-David-Long-shoot-victims.html
 
Because laws don’t, can’t prevent. Just like in your previous post in training, laws, (saying of yelling) police, a badge, etc won’t save you from someone who despises the system and by extension you and your symbols of officialdom and simply doesn’t care about their life or anyone else’s. Safety and (police) authority are just an illusion created by the fact that the vast majority of folks are not homicidal and believe in the system.
 
BINGO!!! I want to have the choice.

Funny thing though if I were alone or with just say my wife and/or kid instead of in a crowd like that club I pretty damn sure I’d actually act quicker and way more aggressively. But one of my biggest problems would be the thought of hitting an innocent bystander ... I almost think that would haunt me more than not acting and just saving my own ass.

Another thing to remember if ever in a crap storm like this is be ready to get real compliant real fast at the first sign of LEOs ... they don’t know if you’re a good guy or bad guy.

Again ... TRAINING and PRACTICE FOR REAL WORLD is something you’d better keep on top of because just luck and pray ain’t something I’d bet on if ever caught up in something even remotely close to this.

I've been deer hunting about five years. Two weeks ago, I found myself in a tactical situation with two bucks, one right under me and one 30 yards away, and having to set things up, waiting until they were not looking, etc. I totally screwed it up and went home empty handed. I just don't think well on my feet, especially when the adrenaline is flowing and I'm trying not to hyperventilate.

A couple of months ago, I was in my truck and saw what looked like a homeless guy on a bicycle on a country road in Chatham County, almost at dark. I asked him where he was going and he said Charlotte--but he wasn't headed that way. I wondered if he was looking to break into some of the homes on that road. I had a full cab, so I offered him a ride to Pittsboro (maybe 10 miles), but only in the bed of my truck. I dropped him off in front of the Sheriff's Office. I'd been climbing trees getting ready for deer season, so the gun was in the cab of the truck as I helped him get his bicycle and backpack out of the truck. Later, I got to thinking that I didn't properly position myself so that if he tried to jump me and take my truck, he probably could have. I won't make that mistake again, but I've got to get better at thinking ahead, playing "what if", and being more alert to these situations.

If I haven't gamed it out ahead of time, I won't get it right when the time comes. Maybe my next shooting class should be this kind of stuff.
 
I think most folks that have responded are basically on the right track with exceptions.

" More unidentified people with guns could cause confusion and result in more harm." Oh hell yes!! But...

Face it, there is already harm happening and it's going to continue until, #1. Someone puts a stop to it. #2. The shooter is finished killing people. #3. The shooter runs out of ammo.
If you stand there and do nothing, you're going to be the next casualty. If you do something you could be the next casualty. One is possible, the other is probable. Depends on your fight/flight responses.

The absolute last thing I'm going to do is call 911. There will be so many "phone people" calling that all you would get is a busy signal. I know their on the way, but how long until they arrive?? How many people (including me) are going to die during that time??

I told LJ a long time ago that avoidance and awareness will be your best weapon. Avoid large crowds in public and be aware of what's happening around you. I have tested her on several occasions and she did better each time with her responses.

Do something!! Don't just sit there sipping your drink and wait your turn to feel the pain. Get up and run, either toward the threat or toward safety, whichever in in your makeup.....
 
Nice! I can't get my wife out of the "It won't happen here because... (reasons)" mindset. I guess that's why she has me.
 


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Wow, no bias or sensationalism on Sky News huh.

And I feel for the Mom, but maybe the ebst time to speak or make rational thoughts is not right after your son has been killed. She has no more credibility on this issue than my 12 year daughter.

Edit - I'll also add that her son was in a mass shooting and didn't change his behavior one bit. I would think I'd either avoid crowded targets or maybe learn to be a bot more defensive minded. Poor little sheep.
 
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I've been deer hunting about five years. Two weeks ago, I found myself in a tactical situation with two bucks, one right under me and one 30 yards away, and having to set things up, waiting until they were not looking, etc. I totally screwed it up and went home empty handed. I just don't think well on my feet, especially when the adrenaline is flowing and I'm trying not to hyperventilate.

A couple of months ago, I was in my truck and saw what looked like a homeless guy on a bicycle on a country road in Chatham County, almost at dark. I asked him where he was going and he said Charlotte--but he wasn't headed that way. I wondered if he was looking to break into some of the homes on that road. I had a full cab, so I offered him a ride to Pittsboro (maybe 10 miles), but only in the bed of my truck. I dropped him off in front of the Sheriff's Office. I'd been climbing trees getting ready for deer season, so the gun was in the cab of the truck as I helped him get his bicycle and backpack out of the truck. Later, I got to thinking that I didn't properly position myself so that if he tried to jump me and take my truck, he probably could have. I won't make that mistake again, but I've got to get better at thinking ahead, playing "what if", and being more alert to these situations.

If I haven't gamed it out ahead of time, I won't get it right when the time comes. Maybe my next shooting class should be this kind of stuff.

Nice gesture helping the guy, but no way. Maybe of you have a buddy that can cover you, but still not a great idea. You had no idea who he was or what he was capable of. Glad you made it home.
 
Wow, no bias or sensationalism on Sky News huh.

And I feel for the Mom, but maybe the ebst time to speak or make rational thoughts is not right after your son has been killed. She has no more credibility on this issue than my 12 year daughter.

Edit - I'll also add that her son was in a mass shooting and didn't change his behavior one bit. I would think I'd either avoid crowded targets or maybe learn to be a bot more defensive minded. Poor little sheep.
Compare that woman to this dude who lost his 9yo daughter in Tuscon years ago. Calls for absolutely no change in firearm laws, and says when you live in a free country, you will simply have to deal with these things from time to time. It sounds like he has accepted the inherent danger associated with freedom, and is willing to accept it rather than be a slave.
 
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Oh go hide behind the pedicure chairs & or just get back to the perms & sets.

Haven't done a pedi or perm since school, but if you want me to gussy you up just let me know. But remember, even a pig with lipstick still smells. It's a comb not a magic wand.
 
Compare that woman to this dude who lost his 9yo daughter in Tuscon years ago. Calls for absolutely no change in firearm laws, and says when you live in a free country, you will simply have to deal with these things from time to time. It sounds like he has accepted the inherent danger associated with freedom, and is willing to accept it rather than be a slave.


The scarey thing is that her son likely changed nothing in his life after Vegas, and the Mom and young girl that was there are both looking for Gov and others to make then safe or fix their problems. Not sure if that is more a reflection on women or our weak culture. People are blind to the fact that the local PD, laws and the Feds cannot protect us all. Their failures are on display every freaking day. And still people cry for more. I know it is wrong, but I'd like to just slap them both and yell wake the %#+* up.

Edit - For example. When we had a rash of local car break ins and thefts at the place my daighter works here is what we did and didn't do. I drove my daughter to the parking lot and building one morning and ran through where she should park, and that she leaves nothing in the car and what she should look for around the lot when she enters the building. And when she leaves. And we tlaked about self defense and whehter she should call the PD depedning on what she sees. She usually works days and mornings on the weekend so that helps. You know what I didn't do? I didn't go cry at the local PD and demand action.
 
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The scarey thing is that her son likely changed nothing in his life after Vegas, and the Mom and young girl that was there are both looking for Gov and others to make then safe or fix their problems. Not sure if that is more a reflection on women or our weak culture. People are blind to the fact that the local PD, laws and the Feds cannot protect us all. Their failures are on display every freaking day. And still people cry for more. I know it is wrong, but I'd like to just slap them both and yell wake the %#+* up.
I think it's people in general, but I would *imagine* women are more susceptible to that line of thought; I mean, shit, 2nd wave feminism was just marxism pushed towards the female crowd. And it worked.

Anyways, it's unfortunate how many people think like this, and I get frustrated as hell with people who want to ride the line.

This country is becoming so insanely polarized, and pretty soon you won't have the option to bicker over the fine details. There will be a line in the sand and people will need to pick a side. It's either Liberty or slavery. There will only be friend and enemy.
 
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It was reported there were six off duty LEO working the event, lighting was good, bad dude had smoke devices.
CA has no provision for anyone to conceal carry in a bar or club.
Perhaps personal laser pointing device and or tactical LED light could be used to stop an attack by aiming at the face
and eyes of the active shooter if you are not able to get out of the building.
 
It was reported there were six off duty LEO working the event, lighting was good, bad dude had smoke devices.
CA has no provision for anyone to conceal carry in a bar or club.
Perhaps personal laser pointing device and or tactical LED light could be used to stop an attack by aiming at the face
and eyes of the active shooter if you are not able to get out of the building.
That's like being told to bang rocks together when being charged by a grizzly.
 
It was reported there were six off duty LEO working the event, lighting was good, bad dude had smoke devices.
CA has no provision for anyone to conceal carry in a bar or club.
Perhaps personal laser pointing device and or tactical LED light could be used to stop an attack by aiming at the face
and eyes of the active shooter if you are not able to get out of the building.
Shoot the light. People naturally do that. :eek:
 
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