This was intense

You are dead on....... Most police shootings are over scrutinized by the mass media and a bunch of social media drama queens. His partner could have easily gotten killed, but in that situation.....the deceased wasnt going to hurt anyone but themselves. Every situation is different and that showed you dont always have the time to decifer the situation.... I only know to plant my feet, face forward, shoot and i can move from side to side, but i got stumped when the officer ran backwards. Something new to practice.
Take Ryan's Defensive Handgun class at Apex Defense....he'll make you shoot while backing up! While covering your head with your other arm/hand!
 
Things I see that could have been done differently.....


2) From the camera angles it appeared as if they separated from each other more as they were retreating. Danger of him advancing between them and then turning on one. Again your safe zone of fire gets compromised as your partner is downrange and being attacked. And you're downrange from him.

3) Stickman is right on above. After the first hits the officer that got choked was absolutely focused on bringing his gun to what has become a fist and knife fight. Within those ranges you just made the fight over the gun that's half out of your holster.


I went and watched it a few more times. The angles in this shoot are terrible when the shots were fired at first. If you notice there's a cop walking up just to the shooters right when he fires. Theres defiantly a lot we all can learn from this video.
 
Mentally ill guy wants to die by cop and not a cop on the scene wants to use his taser gun. No they didn’t do everything they could.

Your post is complete bull shit.

No one with any self respect to include you would respond to a lethal weapon "knife" with a less-then lethal tool "taser".

John
 
...I've ran plenty of calls on folks who've been shot in various parts of their bodies and they are still kicking and moving around pretty good 10-15 mins after being shot.

Yup...

Didn’t want treatment and didn’t want a ride to the hospital...just mad as hell and all they really wanted was to get their hands on the person who shot them.
 
I'm just curious as to what caliber he was shot with at first...9mm? Do you think that's why he was able to get back up? Or, are all police issued a 45? If it was a 9, I believe I'd be looking to upgrade.

Or....

Force on Force training and marksmanship training?

Its where you hit them at, not what you hit them with.
 
No one with any self respect to include you would respond to a lethal weapon "knife" with a less-then lethal tool "taser".

John

Yep, LTL is pretty much to bring a person into compliance ... that guy won’t gonna comply for any reason short of death. Hell, the state he was in he coulda rode the lighting for a hit or two but not gone down completely and even yanked out the barbs. His state of mind was the 1/10 of 1% of hell bent on finishing what he started.
 
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From my recliner....

Drop the knife! No? Well....that fire truck backing over your ass will end this situation.
The fire trucks were my first idea. @Zbizzle911, could that have been a possibility or is the FD required to remain passive/observant in such a situation?
 
The fire trucks were my first idea. @Zbizzle911, could that have been a possibility or is the FD required to remain passive/observant in such a situation?
SO since you brought it up, The engine staged in a terrible location. They were what looked like 75-100 yds from the guy when the cops got there. I don't know what info they got enroute but in a perfect world they should've been back on the main road or further. I can only speak for myself and I would instruct my driver or if I were the driver to be passive and retreat if possible. The last choice would be to run him over. Those guys dodged a bullet by being that far up in there when they didn't need to be. Notice how they had unassed the place when the cops started retreating but then were still in the way when the guy got out on the main road?
 
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I’ll second @Zbizzle911 ’s comments...

Absolute last resort. If my crew and I are boxed-in, have no avenue of escape (which would be my fault as the driver, because I was taught better) and someone is shooting at us, then I may consider it, but what’s the obstacle?

If it’s a car, a mailbox or some other inanimate object, I’d just as soon run it over/move it, rather than strike another person with the truck. Also, we have an air horn and a mechanical siren. Lay down on either one and if someone is in close proximity to the truck, it may just be enough to incapacitate them and buy you enough time to get the hell outta Dodge City. Don’t get me wrong, though; if it’s a question of, “If I don’t do this, one or more of us are gonna die”, then yeah, I’d lay down on the pedal...

And that’s gonna be a metric sh*t-ton of paperwork.
 
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Your post is complete bull shit.

No one with any self respect to include you would respond to a lethal weapon "knife" with a less-then lethal tool "taser".

John
Then why even carry a GD taser if only a gun is the right tool. Cops have a tough job and tough decisions but it was obvious the guy wanted them to kill him. They knew that or they would have never backed up.

I’m fine with blowing holes in hard criminals. Let’s make it a sport. Mentally ill I’d probably try my taser gun first or have the other officer attempt it.
 
Problem is, that Taser may not incapacitate him. Yeah...most folks that get hit with one are gonna drop like a sack-o-taters...but not every one of them.

Dude’s got a blade and the video proved you can cover a lot of real estate in a short amount of time. Should the taser prove ineffective, you’d have very little (if any) time left to go to guns.
 
Then why even carry a GD taser if only a gun is the right tool. Cops have a tough job and tough decisions but it was obvious the guy wanted them to kill him. They knew that or they would have never backed up.

I’m fine with blowing holes in hard criminals. Let’s make it a sport. Mentally ill I’d probably try my taser gun first or have the other officer attempt it.

The taser is to force compliance.

When the perp stats at level 10 on a 8 scale....

Tell you what, lets avoid the internet back and forth.

With your wisdom on use of force, if you would let me know when you put in your packet as a Law Enforcement Officer...
 
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The taser is to force compliance.

When the perp stats at level 10 on a 8 scale....

Tell you what, lets avoid the internet back and forth.

With your wisdom on use of force, if you would let me know when you put in your packet as a Law Enforcement Officer...
Oh, oh you mean force compliance. I get it. You mean like put the knife down. Yeah compliance by taser.
 
Oh, oh you mean force compliance. I get it. You mean like put the knife down. Yeah compliance by taser.

A taser is a compliance tool, not a defensive tool. Because the suspect had a knife, he escalated the situation to a defensive one for the officers. Compliance is getting the suspect to submit to commands, but once a deadly weapon is involved you enter another level in the escalation of force. You apparently don't understand the positioning of tasers, pepper spray, batons, etc. in the continuum of force.



I too have some exercises that demonstrate, what is basically the Tueller Rule. 1.5 sec is a number I refer to. 1.5 seconds for a basic draw to rounds on target. 1.5 seconds to cover 21ft by an attacker. Even if you hit him, he's on top of you physically by that time. Get out of his way.

Generally, I don't like firing while backing up. High likely-hood of tripping because you can't see where you're going and you're never going to 'eout run him, because he's going forward while you're going backward. He will overtake you quickly. I might back up a little for positioning, but if i'm fully backing up to avoid him then I've lost command of the stiuation and I'm reacting to him. He's now in command.

People always joke about bringing a knife to a gun fight, but inside of 10ft. the knife is king.
 
People always joke about bringing a knife to a gun fight, but inside of 10ft. the knife is king.

Years back in CQC training we were taught a form of attacking an armed person within reach if you have no firearm or escape ... you angle in as best you can away from the muzzle an attack the connective tissues in the arms (ligaments, tendons and muzzles) raking across as hard and fast as possible. You cut a couple and the attacker’s arms, especially hands, don’t work to good not to mention the pain and shock. I almost would rather face a handgun than a person armed with say a 4” fixed blade if they just know halfway how to use it. I remember the first day when the instructor walks in and said “in a knife fight you will get cut” ... after just an hour or so with rubber practice knives (and the painful red welts all over my forearms, torso and even a couple on my neck) I really began to realize just how much distance was really your friend.
 
@NCFubar, sometimes in our Kali class, we would tell everyone to wear an old white T-shirt, because we were gonna spar. Then, we would use those big fat red sharpies and go at it. Amazing at how many red marks you would end up with.

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Just from the comments here...I'd say we have a bunch of killers in this forum. Not saying it's a bad thing, not saying it's good either, just an observation. I can agree with a few in here, if someone is determined, and approaching me with a knife...and I'm armed. I don't think I'd hesitate to drop the perp. Do you think they could've just shot out a knee cap, or something?
 
Just from the comments here...I'd say we have a bunch of killers in this forum. Not saying it's a bad thing, not saying it's good either, just an observation. I can agree with a few in here, if someone is determined, and approaching me with a knife...and I'm armed. I don't think I'd hesitate to drop the perp. Do you think they could've just shot out a knee cap, or something?

That would be a dang good shot with retreating movement and a moving target!
 
Just from the comments here...I'd say we have a bunch of killers in this forum. Not saying it's a bad thing, not saying it's good either, just an observation. I can agree with a few in here, if someone is determined, and approaching me with a knife...and I'm armed. I don't think I'd hesitate to drop the perp. Do you think they could've just shot out a knee cap, or something?

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Just from the comments here...I'd say we have a bunch of killers in this forum. Not saying it's a bad thing, not saying it's good either, just an observation. I can agree with a few in here, if someone is determined, and approaching me with a knife...and I'm armed. I don't think I'd hesitate to drop the perp. Do you think they could've just shot out a knee cap, or something?
If you stab a person at the collar bone with a downward thrust you can sever the aorta. If this happened on a operating table with a surgeon at the ready you would die before they even got started.

If a serious student of the knife learns some anatomy they are deadly.

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No

I got the tools to test this. Let me know when you want me to video you.
So you want to shoot me??? I've shot a many a guns in my days, I've seen it done, so I know it is possible. Don't retreat! Then you don't have to shoot from a retreating position. The man had a knife, they have firearms and extensive weapons training, your trying to make me believe that 2 highly trained men...with guns, can't hit a leg?
 
So you want to shoot me??? I've shot a many a guns in my days, I've seen it done, so I know it is possible. Don't retreat! Then you don't have to shoot from a retreating position. The man had a knife, they have firearms and extensive weapons training, your trying to make me believe that 2 highly trained men...with guns, can't hit a leg?


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So you want to shoot me??? I've shot a many a guns in my days, I've seen it done, so I know it is possible. Don't retreat! Then you don't have to shoot from a retreating position. The man had a knife, they have firearms and extensive weapons training, your trying to make me believe that 2 highly trained men...with guns, can't hit a leg?
@JBoyette doesn’t want to shoot you.

He wants to give you a training opportunity that will open your eyes wider than they obviously currently are.
 
@JBoyette doesn’t want to shoot you.

He wants to give you a training opportunity that will open your eyes wider than they obviously currently are.
I would love the opportunity... But unfortunately I have to stay away from firearms, not because of using them unlawfully, but because of my past, idiotic decisions.
 
Do you think they could've just shot out a knee cap, or something?

Dude was little and he was fast. It would’ve been easier for the officer to score a head shot than a leg, or especially, a knee shot.

You’re moving, you have a moving target and for a “kneecap” shot, you’d be shooting at the fastest moving part of an already moving target...his means of propulsion; the legs. Patella’s around 2” in diameter. If that officer managed to score a direct hit on it in the situation shown in the video, they need to sign him up for the department’s shooting team and start construction on the big-ass trophy case he’ll fill up.
 
Monday morning quarterbacking, a luxury not available to the officers at the time, it might have been possible to drop the guy with mag dumps toward his knees, calves, feet. No telling where the rounds might have ended up after hitting the street.

Imagine what was going thru the officers’ heads during those few moments. :confused:
 
I would love the opportunity... But unfortunately I have to stay away from firearms, not because of using them unlawfully, but because of my past, idiotic decisions.
There won’t be actual firearms involved.
 
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