Is shooting a perishable skill?

If it isn't perishable, why does the military drill and practice so much? Why not just teach them at the beginning?
Seems odd for ex-mil to say practice isn't necessary. I am not and never was in, but I'd be curious whether a vet thinks another vet would really think that way.
25 or so years ago I could range distances and read 3 different vectors of wind with little effort ... today I couldn’t hardly read past 100 yards and reading the wind nothing more than direction ...
 
Years ago I drove nails for a living, today I would be hard pressed to sink a 20 penny without dogtracks. Skills must be practiced to remain at a high level.
 
i also think we are talking about a few different things here.

the person with naturally good hand eye coordination and fine motor control will probably still shoot the center out of it if they focus and are not under pressure

that doesn’t mean they will shoot that well under stress when you seem to be operating primarily with coarse motor control

training will probably raise your baseline for the second scenario but pure talent will make the shooter in the first scenario turn little holes into big ones year after year with no training

This is sooo true. I think training is important when we talk about shootin but like any physical skill there are some people who are just naturally going to be better than others whether they are under stress or not. There are some that simply are born with the eyesight reaction time and motor coordination to be better than avg from the moment they pick up a pistol. Other people like me have to work and grind it out to be avg.

My go to example of this was McEnroe vs Lendl . McEnroe was a gifted athlete IIRC he was an all American in Soccer in addition to Tennis. He used to smoke cigarettes on the court during changes. He was never physically fit. At the same time he was one of the smoothest players ever to play the game. His serve and volley game was almost effortless. In contrast Lendl was robotic. He trained and trained. His game was methodical and robotic. He literally beat you into submission with precision and did not make mistakes. I remember watching them play as a kid. The contrast even to a 14 year old was stunning. Some of us are McEnroe others are Lendl. Some are born with all the talents they need others need to refine the limited gifts that they have but both can succeed.
 
Other people like me have to work and grind it out to be avg.
I hope to rise to average one day, before I get too old to get to a range and shoot!
 
  • Like
Reactions: Me.
I agree. But the level that they drop is far above “zero”.

It’s like a Twinkie. A fresh Twinkie is great, but a 35 year old one is not that much different! ;)


While that may be true, let’s not pretend it is difficult.

Recently a special needs old man near where I grew up fired a gun for the first time in his life. With a revolver he had inherited, he killed two intruders in his house.


Not a response to @Sigequinox220, just me giving my opinion......
Shooting ain’t rocket science.



It’s no more complicated than driving. We pilot these big dangerous things using the gross-motor-muscles of our ANKLE to finely manage the speed. Our ankle. Every day at crosswalks, people live and die (mostly live) by people finely controlling their ANKLE.

Off-topic (sorry, pet peeve rant)

Whenever I hear people hear people say we will “lose fine motor skills under stress”, I get a laugh. The tiny inputs required to move a car are VERY fine motor skills. Yet people seem to still find the brake pedal under stress.

I know what you mean. I edited my post to say note the term should really be “diminishable skill” rather than “perishable” as that causes confusion in interpretation. But since perishable here is synonymous with diminished, that is all I mean and is essentially incontrovertible.

I’m just getting back into high volume shooting after a few month hiatus as a result of the relocation. My skills absolutely diminished (perishes, w/e).

Driving would perish as well but most people continue to gain daily experience without break. If you stopped driving for 10 years fairly confident you would be over the line more, have to focus more, accelerate or break awkwardly etc, but might only take few hours or days to regain all that was lost since so deeply hardwired.

point is, Millie almost GI Joe date should probably be on Grinder instead of Tinder.
 
Last edited:
I thought you like them young Millie, this dude must have carried a Garand with his clips?
Yeah, I do like the younger ones.....but you never know where the chemistry will hit, so I have to meet them all.....dang!
 
  • Like
Reactions: Me.
Also if you are talking about shooting on a 2 way range vs a one way square. I have multiple family members who have served in combat. All of them have been in multiple firefights. All of them talk about how nothing really prepares you for a full on 2 way range. They all say that you never know how you are going to react until you have to. Another thing that they say is that the guys or gals you think are going to be bad asses aren't always the ones who really are. They are not the most physically fit. They are not the best shot on the range. They are not the fastest etc.... The ones you want to fight with and the ones that are the true badasses are the ones who when it all breaks loose don't lose their $hit. They are the ones who can slow it down and process the what is happening at the speed of a bullet and react. They don't freak out. They have nerves of steel. When others panic these individuals simply go to work. IMHO this cannot be taught. All the training in the world is not going to turn that switch on. You have it or you don't. It is not something you learn it is something you are born with.
 
Sorry, @vp9c, I’m going to call you out on this?

Why do you believe “under stress” will diminish fine skill? Or.... how do you think “course motor skill” comes into play with a gun, where you need to grip, draw, aim, fire..... if we lost fine skill, how would we work a trigger?


Before you answer, look at these pictures.

Boeing_747-400_cockpit.jpg


IMG_8356b1_Endeavour-power-up_Ken-Kremer2.jpg



These are the cockpits of a 747 and the space shuttle. Do the designers look like they are worried about humans’ ability to handle fine-motor skills under stress?

Before you answer, read this study:
http://jass.neuro.wisc.edu/2015/01/Lab 603 Group 12.pdf

The study expected fine motor skill to reduce, but found it stays the same or improves.

And, read this...

https://www.itstactical.com/warcom/...lose-fine-motor-skills-under-shooting-stress/








Sorry, I mentioned this was a “pet peeve”. I think it’s a myth, like carrots improving eyesight, or swimming after eating will give you cramps.

The study you site IMHO does not really translate to guns and gunfighting. The level of stree induced is no where near being on a 2 way range. It is also no where near being in the cockpit of a plane that has engine failure or about to drop 1000 bombs on unknown number of people.

I think that the correct way to put it is that unless you have trained for thousands of hours that under the pressure of loss of life there will be a great drop in your ability to perform fine motor skills. I think that trainers and the general population have latched onto this "myth" is that most people under no stress exhibit poor fine motor skills under ZERO pressure. They do not train at all. You are comparing the 1% of 1% to the avg man or women at the range. It is not the same.

Again I think a better way to explain it is that under stress the precision of your fine motor skills will be diminished. The amount of that drop is depended on your training and you natural abilities. If you lack both training and natural abilities
maxresdefault.jpg
......
 
Last edited:
True I think that the correct way to put it is that unless you have trained for thousands of hours that under pressure there will be a great drop in your ability to perform fine motor skills. I think that trainers and the general population have latched onto this "myth" is that most people under no stress exhibit poor fine motor skills under ZERO pressure. They do not train at all. You are comparing the 1% of 1% to the avg man or women at the range. It is not the same.

Again I think a better way to explain it is that under stress the precision of your fine motor skills will be diminished. The amount of that drop is depended on your training and you natural abilities. If you lack both training and natural abilities
maxresdefault.jpg
......

1st of all, fantastic picture.

next, I will be brief since fine/gross motor skill function under exceptionally volatile and life threatening circumstances is an entirely different topic than training and perishable skills (and different underlying circuits). But to address the last statement that fine motor would diminish, the researchers primary conclusion from paper he cited quoted post is 'Our results did not show significant evidence that an increase in heart rate or EDA (implying an increased stress response) were linked to a decrease in fine motor accuracy." Certainly the paper methods can be argued or the validity of heart rate and EDA as sufficient to serve as a surrogate measure for body stress response, but that is yet again another discussion.

What I will note about that paper regarding the variables used to measure stress response, is that I did not see any justification for them. For example, had they done a regression and show R2 value we could at least have a quantified baseline for how much of the variability is accounted for by the surrogate measure . However, this is not my field of study, so these may be gold standard for this type of experimental design and need no justification among physiologists. But it is eating away at me nonetheless.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Me.
Thanks for the response.

I think the guy got a tad defensive when I asked if he shoots regularly. (I invited him to the range, as I do a lot of guys.)
He gave me a whole thing about his service training, and asked if I understand how highly trained he is.....which of course I do not, never having been in the military, and I said so!

Asked all sorts of questions about my training and how long I've had my permit, and how many "clips" I carry....and do I know he can keep my 1911 from shooting?
Wow, I hit a nerve, clearly.
Sounds like a macho dumb A. Probably won't like you having your own opinion, or bank account, if it got serious.
 
Sorry, @vp9c, I’m going to call you out on this.

Why do you believe “under stress” will diminish fine skill? Or.... how do you think “course motor skill” comes into play with a gun, where you need to grip, draw, aim, fire..... if we lost fine skill, how would we work a trigger?


Before you answer, look at these pictures.

Boeing_747-400_cockpit.jpg


IMG_8356b1_Endeavour-power-up_Ken-Kremer2.jpg



These are the cockpits of a 747 and the space shuttle. Do the designers look like they are worried about humans’ ability to handle fine-motor skills under stress?

Before you answer, read this study:
http://jass.neuro.wisc.edu/2015/01/Lab 603 Group 12.pdf

The study expected fine motor skill to reduce, but found it stays the same or improves.

And, read this...

https://www.itstactical.com/warcom/...lose-fine-motor-skills-under-shooting-stress/








Sorry, I mentioned this was a “pet peeve”. I think it’s a myth, like carrots improving eyesight, or swimming after eating will give you cramps.

I think that the right word instead of stress or pressure is actually panic!

people can learn to do extremely complicated and even delicate tasks under stress and with repetition and training they can learn to control your stress levels.

but I think when people have a true panic adrenaline dump they cannot control their fine delicate movements as well. This is why people in a panic slam on the brakes instead of press the brakes and don’t just turn the wheel they jerk the wheel which results in overcorrection. I don’t think that playing a slightly scary video game is the same as a startle panic oh crap I’m about to die scenario

i’m guessing the dead pilots that actually crash their planes probably did not experience fine motor control as they were trying to pull out of a crash at the last second
 
Last edited:
Plus they didn’t even do a power analysis in that study to see if their sample size was large enough to detect that small of a difference LOL!

no offense but it doesn’t look like it got through the peer review process it just looked like a white paper or some sort of student dissertation
 
  • Like
Reactions: Me.
a well designed study would’ve actually killed a few of the early participants so subsequent participants knew they were serious about the stress level haha

does the control cohort get “blanks” shot at their face as placebo? ! ....”yup. They were effing terrified. Scribbled a bunch of nonsense much less a dog”
 
  • Like
Reactions: Me.
Athletes. Physicians/surgeons. Military. Pilots. Astronauts.

They/we train, rehearse, drill, do simulations/sim lab, increasing the degree and types of stress faster and faster...not until we get it right, but until we cannot get it wrong.
 
Just shot with a friend who is a Marine, and works in a security firm as a firearms instructor. We ran an informal 'wizard' drill at my place and our mutual friend who is a handgun novice but has been to the range on a regular basis outshot us both.
He (the instructor friend) also couldn't get the 2 rifles he brought with him sighted in at 15yds.
He somehow managed to get not just one but 2 bad used AIMPOINT pros that wouldn't adjust windage. I lent him an old Bushnell TRS25 and had it on target at 50yds within 3 shots.

The Consensus was: He should practice more and teach less. Take that how you want, but there's a reason I go to the range and practice different drills every week as well as just basic marksmanship practice. I don't teach anyone (except family) ;)

Any skill is perishable, even the most basic ones.
 
Last edited:
Just shot with a friend who is a Marine, and works in a security firm as a firearms instructor. We ran an informal 'wizard' drill at my place and our mutual friend who is a handgun novice but has been to the range on a regular basis outshot us both.
He (the instructor friend) also couldn't get the 2 rifles he brought with him sighted in at 15yds.
He somehow managed to get not just one but 2 bad used AIMPOINT pros that wouldn't adjust windage. I lent him an old Bushnell TRS25 and had it on target at 50yds within 3 shots.

The Consensus was: He should practice more and teach less. Take that how you want, but there's a reason I go to the range and practice different drills every week as well as just basic marksmanship practice. I don't teach anyone (except family) ;)

Any skill is perishable, even the most basic ones.

If he is an instructor, he violates instructor rule #1: know thyself. Everything I teach, I can do, mostly blindfolded. I can also tell you the theory and any workarounds and when to deviate. There's a reason I do not teach suturing, chest tube placement, or central line placement any longer...I have not done them in years, and if I tried to teach them, a) I couldn't do them well, at all; and b) I'd be all over the place.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Me.
A man not discriminating enough to want to shoot two 1911s is not going to be a good match for me! LoL.
Me too....I'm sure I'll find out eventually.
Edit: and he called it "rehearsal"....very weird.
He better be able to shoot, and he better have tattoos, then. Take that any way you want to! LOL.
Yeah, I do like the younger ones.....but you never know where the chemistry will hit, so I have to meet them all.....dang!
Damn....I refer you to OP...what happened to this thread Drift??
Back to YOUR question...I have found that it is a perishable skill for the shooters I have come in contact with. Diminished but not disappeared. They were able to "hone" their skills quickly.
One other thing from an Old Shooter that shoots every day. Even though I shoot daily, my skill level is diminishing. This Sunday somebody said "show Off" after I shot. I take that as a compliment. I Do see that my reaction time has slowed. I can only imagine how it would be if I laid off a year or so.
Anyway that's the story from here and as always, I can Only speak for me. We have to all seek our own salvation..Jim Higginbothom
 
One other thing from an Old Shooter that shoots every day. Even though I shoot daily, my skill level is diminishing. This Sunday somebody said "show Off" after I shot. I take that as a compliment.
You were showing off! LOL.
But it's good for me to watch all you guys and girls who have been doing this for many years! I get all inspired.

And it was nice to have RS there all day....that girl can shoot, inspiring me even more!

And yeah, whatever, I let the thread drift.....young guys make me drift, so shoot me! LOL.
 
Thanks for the response.

I think the guy got a tad defensive when I asked if he shoots regularly. (I invited him to the range, as I do a lot of guys.)
He gave me a whole thing about his service training, and asked if I understand how highly trained he is.....which of course I do not, never having been in the military, and I said so!

Asked all sorts of questions about my training and how long I've had my permit, and how many "clips" I carry....and do I know he can keep my 1911 from shooting?
Wow, I hit a nerve, clearly.
 
Sounds to me like he never had the skill to perish...

I've shot with a lot of military guys/gals. They're about like cops. A handful can shoot and embrace the culture, many can't and don't...
 
I have a term I use to describe a loss of motor action in humans and its called Musculoskeletal Amnesia. Over time we humans lose ranges of motion and skills due to non or limited use. Its what is commonly called old age but really has nothing to do with aging directly. The body loses its recognition of certain planes of motion until they are rediscovered with the help of a therapist. Yes accurate shooting is perishable but no more than walking, squatting, reaching overhead or rotating your head among many other activities. Most people never realize it until they hit the "old" button.
R
 
I skimmed the thread, so I may repeat a few things people have said, if so, I apologize.

As far as being a perishable skill, I do believe it is...like anything we don't practice on an ongoing basis, we do get worse at it. I don't think we ever drop to zero as we will retain some of our knowledge, but we certainly perform worse. Its why athletes practice constantly and don't just spend time in the gym. They rehearse over and over...whats the old saying "Amateurs do a task until they get it right, and professionals do a task until they cant get it wrong" or something like that.

As far as "fine motor skills" and being degraded, I think someone above hit it. There is a difference between stress and panic. The military trains so that soldiers can complete complex tasks while under extreme stress, and being able to focus on these tasks to avoid panic. When people panic they lose their capacity to think clearly and focus. In my >opinion< it is the lack of preparedness and training that leads to panic. For example, you put 10 guys in an APC and start shooting at it, they may panic because they have no idea what to do...however you train them repeatedly on what steps for each individual to take when they come under fire then they are prepared and even though under stress, they can complete the task at hand.

And to clarify, there is a difference between merely "freaking out" and true panic. True panic is the "will trample over people to survive" instinct that can strike people and make them do things they would never admit to being capable of when in a calm relaxed state.

The issue most civilians like myself face is that it is difficult to induce a true realistic level of stress. I know that if I miss the targets at the next match they aren't going to shoot me back. So the best I can do is replace that true "Im gonna die!" stress with "I don't want to look like an idiot in front of my friends" and the base human competitiveness to want to beat the others there.

Also, you can always tell a "fake expert" because they will want to explain to you at length how much experience they have. I see it all the time with veterans...the ones who saw the most, did the most, and were involved in the worst will rarely ever talk about it. But those who went outside the wire once and a mortar round his 300 yards away will go into detail about their "experience in the two way rifle range".
 
Yeah, he wasn't even tempted by my offer of a range day with not one, but two 1911s....What the heck kinda guy is this?!?! He obviously has no taste!

It sounds A LOT like he was intimidated to hit the range with you and find out you could actually out shoot him

As for it being a perishable skill, hands down a resounding YES! After 4 years in the Marine Corps, 24 (so far) on the job as an active cop and close to two decades of actually teaching the skill set, there is no way I would feel comfortable with not training at all and feeling like I am well prepared. That's just asinine.
 
It sounds A LOT like he was intimidated to hit the range with you and find out you could actually out shoot him
You're sweet, but have you seen me shoot? lol.

I'm not that great at it consistently, but I can wow your socks off every now and then with a burst of brilliance....
You just never know....lol.
I call it "consistently inconsistent."
 
Thanks for the response.

I think the guy got a tad defensive when I asked if he shoots regularly. (I invited him to the range, as I do a lot of guys.)
He gave me a whole thing about his service training, and asked if I understand how highly trained he is.....which of course I do not, never having been in the military, and I said so!

Asked all sorts of questions about my training and how long I've had my permit, and how many "clips" I carry....and do I know he can keep my 1911 from shooting?
Wow, I hit a nerve, clearly.
I shot a lot during my 30 years in service. I’ve been retired for 7 and using his methods, I shouldn’t ever have to train or practice again and still be any good when I have to pull the trigger. What a putz! Yes, it is indeed a perishable skill! As said, he mind still works but the body loses muscle memory and our eyes get worse. Train, train, and train some more. I smell imposter on his post!
 
Back
Top Bottom