Cooper gonna shut it down

9outof10mms said:
I've been sitting here watching this volleyball match of comments and I'm unable to ascertain...

Should we support businesses and at least *try* to keep people from getting laid off at the expense of a small (albeit serious...but still >small<) risk of exposure?

Or are we supposed to cower in our homes for 30 days?

What about groceries during those 30 days? Do we suit up in ET gear to go to Harris Teeter? No? Why not?

Common sense, people. Stay spread out, try not to touch stuff--clean your hands when/if you do.
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My opinion: wear gloves if you have to touch surfaces. If you have sniffles, allergies, etc, wear a mask. Stay spread out. That would do most of what is needed. After that, diminishing returns. This is outside of health care facilities, etc, which require a higher level of PPE.
 
RFMan said:
This I find incomprehensible. Are the people preparing that food wearing masks and gloves? If not, why would you even get it? Seems like a no-brainer to 1) put at least minimal PPE on the food handling employees, and 2) NOT buy it if they don't have that minimal PPE. I got gas this weekend, at a station with an attached fast food restaurant. When I passed by, I saw that at least the counter person, who was handling the outside of all the items (at a minimum), had no gloves on. Then she went over to one side and coughed. As Spock would say, "Fascinating." Or, maybe, "asking for trouble."

As an EE, I have worked in the semiconductor fab portion of my industry. I've worked/been in, oh, three university, two industry, and one military clean room. over the years. If you are doing Class 100 or Class 10, you don't half-ass that stuff and expect good results. I would expect a lot of parallels between medical/germ isolation and PPE, and semi fabs. What I see on a routine basis doesn't even come up to the standards of half-assing.
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Just how fast do you think the average fast food worker is going to be trained to clean room standards?
 
SPST said:
Just how fast do you think the average fast food worker is going to be trained to clean room standards?
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See my post #173. If they can’t do that...then I don’t know what to tell you. But I’m not buying and eating it.
 
The fast food/deli thing is of concern to me too. I watched a guy make a sandwich at Publix the other day. Was wearing gloves and being careful, but still in the end he was breathing on the food.
 
TripleO7 said:
The fast food/deli thing is of concern to me too. I watched a guy make a sandwich at Publix the other day. Was wearing gloves and being careful, but still in the end he was breathing on the food.
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Just like any other day of any other possibility of any other variable that could possibly pass along anything of any sort of harm... for how many days, weeks, months or years so far.

And never a worry
 
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Ikarus1 said:
what about
Ilegal-Hompage-Lifestyle.jpg


heard a rumor about ABC shutting down.........welp guess that 'investment' in local business will pay off nicely!
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Considering the people that own the ABC stor . I done see them loosing all that .Gov money
 
Drove around town this afternoon and WOW there are a lot of folks doing essential stuff. Only took 20 minutes to get from south of monkey junction to Porters Neck. Traffic was lighter but not nonexistent.
 
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georgel said:
Daughter just reported that CMPD is stopping cars to ask people where they are going. She got it from her neighbor, who is a working nurse.
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Give them my youngest daughter's answer when she was still car seat age on our way to Disney World.

Where are we going?

*points enthusiastically forward* THAT WAY!
 
Ikarus1 said:
I went to Cook-Out last week and everyone was wearing gloves. I assume anyone that was actually displaying signs of illness wouldn't be allowed on the prep line or anywhere near food. That's SOP in the food industry.
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That may be stated SOP (and health code) but the real SOP is far from it. My daughter used to work at a local Wendy's - they wouldn't allow more than 3 call-outs for sickness, even with a doctor's note. And they didn't send anyone home who was symptomatic. Sniffling & sneezing? Get on the burger line! (I have heard similar stories from many other fast food workers as well)

As for the issue of how this is saving people's lives - What is the balance between liberty and safety? I think some guy named Ben had some thoughts on that. What are we willing to sacrifice in order to save how many lives? And also keep in mind: what is the damage on the other end for those actions, aside from loss of freedom? There are economic impacts that cost lives, too - but those are nowhere near as quantifiable. How many future lives are we sacrificing for lives today?

I'm not suggesting I have all the answers, or that any of the answers are easy, but they all need to be considered. I DO think the long-term consequences of allowing heavy-handed enforcement of arbitrarily created "emergency orders" will be very chilling.
 
random said:
That may be stated SOP (and health code) but the real SOP is far from it. My daughter used to work at a local Wendy's - they wouldn't allow more than 3 call-outs for sickness, even with a doctor's note. And they didn't send anyone home who was symptomatic. Sniffling & sneezing? Get on the burger line! (I have heard similar stories from many other fast food workers as well)

As for the issue of how this is saving people's lives - What is the balance between liberty and safety? I think some guy named Ben had some thoughts on that. What are we willing to sacrifice in order to save how many lives? And also keep in mind: what is the damage on the other end for those actions, aside from loss of freedom? There are economic impacts that cost lives, too - but those are nowhere near as quantifiable. How many future lives are we sacrificing for lives today?

I'm not suggesting I have all the answers, or that any of the answers are easy, but they all need to be considered. I DO think the long-term consequences of allowing heavy-handed enforcement of arbitrarily created "emergency orders" will be very chilling.
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I definitely agree that erring on the side of heavy-handedness is bad. There ought to be some optimum middle ground. In something like this, people acting like selfish idiots potentially takes out lots of people, not just the idiot. Unfortunately.
 
Mike Overlay said:
Im curious as to why we will not do this stuff for the rest of out lives or havent been already acting this way, with all the ways we can get sick and potentially die

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/hus/2018/010.pdf
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Because we're human beings, not sterile, lifeless, automatons.

Our own bodies are seething masses of biological soup chock full of bacteria, viruses, and chemicals of all kinds in constant flux.

We're not separate from our environment, nor from each other, nor should we be making that kind of behavior the norm.

What we SHOULD be doing is practicing reasonable, good hygiene; exercising intelligent risk assessment; taking basic modern medical prophylactic precautions such as getting vaccinated; etc.

The response should not be to dive into the current level of actions at the drop of a hat, nor to live this way all the time.

If you YOU want to live that way all the time, more power to you. I believe in individual choice.

I will object, however, should others attempt to force such behavior to become the norm.
 
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TripleO7 said:
The fast food/deli thing is of concern to me too. I watched a guy make a sandwich at Publix the other day. Was wearing gloves and being careful, but still in the end he was breathing on the food.
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Did they wear masks before when you ordered deli meats?
Yeah, you'll be fine
 
Don't remember if this has benn covered, but someone mentioned this to me...

166A-19.31. Power of municipalities and counties to enact ordinances to deal with states of emergency.

Type of Prohibitions and Restrictions Authorized. - The ordinances authorized by this section may permit prohibitions and restrictions:

(4) Upon the possession, transportation, sale, purchase, storage, and use of gasoline, and dangerous weapons and substances, except that this subdivision does not authorize prohibitions or restrictions on lawfully possessed firearms or ammunition. As used in this subdivision, the term "dangerous weapons and substances" has the same meaning as it does under G.S. 14-288.1. As used in this subdivision, the term "firearm" has the same meaning as it does under G.S. 14-409.39(2).

https://www.ncleg.gov/EnactedLegislation/Statutes/HTML/BySection/Chapter_166A/GS_166A-19.31.html
 
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Did they start giving the police PPE yet? Or are they still running around without masks?
 
Stout said:
Did they start giving the police PPE yet? Or are they still running around without masks?
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That really is a danger associated with this thing dragging on a long time and getting as severe as it looks like it might. Once the "Free Stuff Army" starts running low on supplies and learns that there isn't much in the way of a force to stop them or consequence, they very well may decide to muster and then go on a raid.
 
Stout said:
Did they start giving the police PPE yet? Or are they still running around without masks?
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15% of NYC’s emergency services have tested positive for COVID-19. I am not sure what percentage medical staff is showing but if Blasio and Co don’t check this it there is going to be an up tick in response related injuries and deaths due to lack of personnel.
 
NCFubar said:
15% of NYC’s emergency services have tested positive for COVID-19. I am not sure what percentage medical staff is showing but if Blasio and Co don’t check this it there is going to be an up tick in response related injuries and deaths due to lack of personnel.
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On a related note, Monday NYC 911 had 6,527 calls, a record. That is staggering.
 
Mike Overlay said:
Im curious as to why we will not do this stuff for the rest of out lives or havent been already acting this way, with all the ways we can get sick and potentially die

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/hus/2018/010.pdf
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My son is a little germ paranoid... he rides the DC metro daily and works in the VA offices which, but modern industrial or office standards, is tighter. He has only had the seasonal flu ONCE. He washes his hands and uses sanitizer. My daughter teaches art...so every period, she has a fresh crew of elementary kids....then the next day a different shift. She started sanitizing or wiping down her tables at the end of the day. She has not had the flu but once. Same thing for a retired elementary teacher that rearranged her kids for the “suggested” 4 person facing in pods. She did the same.

YES...we would be healthier. Ever watch folks at a ball game (men). They come out of the stalls and away from the urinals and never wash.

FWIW. This virus IS transmitted via fecal matter. So, it can linger on the surfaces of a commode. The flushing action will cause a small amount of the fecal matter to atmosisize and the “sprays settles. No way in the us to have a cover like you do at home, but, be aware if you clean the seat and do a lot of the other things that some folks do, you MAY be putting yourself at a greater risk and need to thoroughly wash. Same deal...if you go out in public for a trip or essential errand and use a commode...then you need to launder that outfit immediately and probably bathe or shower when you get home. If women would do a semi squat and use a urinal, they would be at less risk....LOL
 
Chuckman said:
On a related note, Monday NYC 911 had 6,527 calls, a record. That is staggering.
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That's OK. It's good for them...builds the character of the world' second largest police force (about 36,000 officers, behind Tokyo's 43,000 plus 3,000 part time). Gives them something to do other than, say, choke people to death for selling cigarettes, running prostitution rings, "booming" in order to make illegal search and seizure of drugs and money so they could turn around and sell the drugs themselves, sodomizing people with broken broom stick handles while being held in the precinct, etc.

Maybe if they have more to do, they won't have enough time to spend violating the civil rights of people and won't end up costing the city half a billion dollars in law suits every 5 years or so.
 
RetiredUSNChief said:
That's OK. It's good for them...builds the character of the world' second largest police force (about 36,000 officers, behind Tokyo's 43,000 plus 3,000 part time). Gives them something to do other than, say, choke people to death for selling cigarettes, running prostitution rings, "booming" in order to make illegal search and seizure of drugs and money so they could turn around and sell the drugs themselves, sodomizing people with broken broom stick handles while being held in the precinct, etc.

Maybe if they have more to do, they won't have enough time to spend violating the civil rights of people and won't end up costing the city half a billion dollars in law suits every 5 years or so.
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Most of those are EMS (I think 60%), the rest are mostly police, then the minority, fire.
 
noway2 said:
That really is a danger associated with this thing dragging on a long time and getting as severe as it looks like it might. Once the "Free Stuff Army" starts running low on supplies and learns that there isn't much in the way of a force to stop them or consequence, they very well may decide to muster and then go on a raid.
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I think we're dancing on the edge of this. Hopefully we're gonna skate by, but you never know.
 
RetiredUSNChief said:
That's OK. It's good for them...builds the character of the world' second largest police force (about 36,000 officers, behind Tokyo's 43,000 plus 3,000 part time). Gives them something to do other than, say, choke people to death for selling cigarettes, running prostitution rings, "booming" in order to make illegal search and seizure of drugs and money so they could turn around and sell the drugs themselves, sodomizing people with broken broom stick handles while being held in the precinct, etc.

Maybe if they have more to do, they won't have enough time to spend violating the civil rights of people and won't end up costing the city half a billion dollars in law suits every 5 years or so.
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"NOW WHO IS HAVING A 2 YEAR OLD TEMPER TANTRUM? DO AS YOUR TOLD, STAY HOME AND STAY ALIVE! STOP WHINING FOR CRYING OUT LOUD."

So sayeth the retired LEO.


Whether these people think it's important or not, our Constitutional rights ARE important. If it comes to a point where those rights "must" be violated for some reason, then the legal path to this is called "martial law", and they can go about suspending the writ of habeas corpus. The provision for this is in the U.S. Constitution under Article 1, Section 9. It was suspended only a handful of times in our nation's history. Four times centering around the Civil War (Once by Lincoln, once by Congress, once by the Confederation, once during Reconstruction). Once in the Philipines in 1905. And once during WWII. It was limited in some ways by the AEDPA signed into law by Bill Clinton in 1996. A Presidential Military Order in 2001 has provisions in conflict with habeas corpus, which the Supreme Court rectified in 2004, but other fallout from that is still being challenged to this day.

If our rights were not important, then that little legal soft shoe in section 4 of the governor's stay at home order, titled "The order does not authorize suspicionless stops", would not be in there.

What it means is the State does not have the authority (right) to arbitrarily violate people's rights (says so right in section 4, where it talks about the Fourth Amendment and all).

The assumption is that people who are going about their business are otherwise following all the precautions being put out there about this outbreak concern. In other words, they're "adults" and doing the "adult thing".

If I'm out and about in my vehicle, then the assumption is that I'm out and about in my vehicle for a legitimate reason. You can't pull me over JUST because you think I may not be out and about for a legitimate reason.


THAT SAID, I realize the natural comeback to that is "OK, I'll play your silly game. One of your brake lights is out, therefore I'll pull your *ss over for a traffic infraction and we'll go from there."

OK, I can play that silly game, too. Because personally, I DO have a right to be about (because I'm an adult that way) and you're silly *ss game is doing nothing except wasting both our times. Because the most you'll get on me is either a "warning" because of the light or an actual citation I'll have to pay or challenge for said light.

But what THAT all amounts to is the LEO acting EXACTLY like what this retired LEO is complaining about...a child. "I'll get my way, no matter what!"

Well, perhaps you will.


I am a grown man. If I'm not otherwise demonstrating that I'm acting like a responsible, grown man, then DO NOT TREAT ME AS ANYTHING OTHER THAN A RESPONSIBLE, GROWN MAN.


TO BE FAIR:

Almost every officer I've ever encountered has been a professional, comporting himself/herself as such, and presented themselves with respect and decorum.

That goes a long way in my book.
 
Chuckman said:
Most of those are EMS (I think 60%), the rest are mostly police, then the minority, fire.
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Yep, EMS is definitely on the front lines and even if they are asymptotic they are benched.

Now around my area the EMS is taking a big part and then Fire being they interact with EMS ... LEO’s are the lowest ... so far. Our VFD is already contacting past members trying to make sure if there are a large number of positives they can have some people to come off the bench.
 
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