Active shooter @ Twentynine Palms Marine Corps Base

“Code white. There is an active shooter in the A M C C. Remain calm. Silence your cell phone. Run, hide, fight. Help is on the way,” the text message said. “Please respond. 1. Acknowledge; I will attempt to evacuate. 2. Acknowledge; I am sheltering in place. 3. I am on leave, liberty at alternate work site or T A D.
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Wow! They get options... run, hide or fight.
 
SnowRooster said:
I think servicemen and women should be allowed to carry on base if they’ve got a concealed carry permit.
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Forget the CCP, we literally trust these people to protect our entire country, all over the world. Give them a mil version of [open] carry training, let them qual every year, and allow them to protect themselves on base if they so choose.
 
In total agreement with them open carrying whatever they are qualified with. I just figured in the short term probably enough service members who have concealed carry permits that it could make a difference in the situations.
 
History, human behavior and the Generals from Rome have dictated that we do not want an armed military on US soil. Where the grey areas lie and what exceptions we make are above my pay grade. But Based on Obama’s purging of Generals and promotion of left wing sycophants maybe we should be cautious in our arming of the troops on local soil.
 
I'm all for personal protection, but you can't have 3000 Marines armed at all times, in garrison.

If it's after 5pm, 75% of them will be drunk.

You wanna see 2000 drunk Marines, armed with handguns, trying to clear a base all at once, with no one in charge?

That would be madness...

And, I specifically chose Marines as my example because I believe their branch would have the best training in firearms handling.

The Coast Guard didn't teach us any REAL firearms safety until I got up into special operations, so 90% of the CG is automatically disqualified, in my opinion, (unless they are a trained armed watch stranger who is actively standing guard duty)...

My point is, it'd be disastrous to arm everybody on the base... Any base...
 
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I should have said something like....

We get one or two active shooters on a base, each year. Usually, they are not really an active shooter (just a suicide, and the base gets locked down).

If everybody on base was armed, 24/7, we'd see a LOT more negligent discharges, injuries, deaths, arguments that end in gunfire, suicides, etc.
 
Alabamacoastie said:
I'm all for personal protection, but you can't have 3000 Marines armed at all times, in garrison.

If it's after 5pm, 75% of them will be drunk.

You wanna see 2000 drunk Marines, armed with handguns, trying to clear a base all at once, with no one in charge?

That would be madness...

And, I specifically chose Marines as my example because I believe their branch would have the best training in firearms handling.

The Coast Guard didn't teach us any REAL firearms safety until I got up into special operations, so 90% of the CG is automatically disqualified, in my opinion, (unless they are a trained armed watch stranger who is actively standing guard duty)...

My point is, it'd be disastrous to arm everybody on the base... Any base...
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Its actually simpler than that. It’s because of laws governing when and where an army can be armed inside the continental US.
 
Go to Iraq or Afghanistan and the same troops are armed 24/7. Change the Federal DoD guidance that bars individuals that have a state issued concealed carry license to allow them to carry on base. Nothing changes. If you think that you'll going to get negligent discharges then give proper training. There is so much BS classes given do to PC that the time should be better spent on actual training in arms. As someone who was once trained in hostage rescue at the national level, I still couldn't carry on post.

CD
 
Chdamn said:
Its actually simpler than that. It’s because of laws governing when and where an army can be armed inside the continental US.
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Chad, if there is one thing I can count on you for, it is being a voice of reason and common sense in most of this stuff. I am face palming over this answer. I don't like it, as I see it as part of the whole anti gun agenda from the left, but darn if it does not make sense!

This is one of those "wow, I never thought of that before" moments, which is almost always followed by a "you were pretty stupid not to have considered that, weren't you?" moments. Another element to sit in the stew pot in thinking thru this mess.

The above is just my normal "too many words" way of saying thank you. Really good and relevant point.
 
Combat Diver said:
Go to Iraq or Afghanistan and the same troops are armed 24/7. Change the Federal DoD guidance that bars individuals that have a state issued concealed carry license to allow them to carry on base. Nothing changes. If you think that you'll going to get negligent discharges then give proper training. There is so much BS classes given do to PC that the time should be better spent on actual training in arms. As someone who was once trained in hostage rescue at the national level, I still couldn't carry on post.

CD
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On bases in Iraq and Afghanistan, there is no alcohol for sale on base. There are no spouses. There are no dependents. Nobody is driving their own POVs, getting into car wrecks (leading to road rage shootings).

All these complications ARE on base in US bases and would lead some weaker members to make bad decisions with firearms.
 
Alabamacoastie said:
I'm all for personal protection, but you can't have 3000 Marines armed at all times, in garrison.

If it's after 5pm, 75% of them will be drunk.

You wanna see 2000 drunk Marines, armed with handguns, trying to clear a base all at once, with no one in charge?

That would be madness...

And, I specifically chose Marines as my example because I believe their branch would have the best training in firearms handling.

The Coast Guard didn't teach us any REAL firearms safety until I got up into special operations, so 90% of the CG is automatically disqualified, in my opinion, (unless they are a trained armed watch stranger who is actively standing guard duty)...

My point is, it'd be disastrous to arm everybody on the base... Any base...
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I'm glad someone here realizes this. The troops are , for the most part, just a bunch of kids and are heavily supervised when live weapons are in use. Maybe not on deployment but like said they aren't drunk and in the midst of domestic squabbles when deployed. Even then there isn't a veteran on here that doesn't have some tale of reckless, stupid or malicious behavior they can tell.
 
My snarky thought when I read this was "of course someone went postal, it's 29 Palms...." Then I read it was self-inflicted, then my snark meter pegged out because he intentionally shot himself....at 29 Palms.

When you can get past the point of bored and drunk E2s doing swan dives into kiddy pools from the second and third decks of barracks, maybe there can be a rational discussion of everyone being able to carry on base. The majority of combatant MOSs aren't the steely-eyed Ranger, SF, MARSOC, or whatever....they are bored E-nothings with too much time on their hands and a propensity to do stupid stuff.

Now, if the discussion is, can we have rotated group on base who can carry/be armed, like an internal QRF or something, I am down with that.
 
Alabamacoastie said:
On bases in Iraq and Afghanistan, there is no alcohol for sale on base. There are no spouses. There are no dependents. Nobody is driving their own POVs, getting into car wrecks (leading to road rage shootings).

All these complications ARE on base in US bases and would lead some weaker members to make bad decisions with firearms.
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Those same ones with concealed carry permits don't do that either. Those problems you mention still happen (minus dependents). Baghdad International Airport does have a State Dept class six, lots of drama between the sexes. Irbil, Iraq alcohol all over. Don't give me those excuses.

CD
 
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Combat Diver said:
Those same ones with concealed carry permits don't do that either. Those problems you mention still happen (minus dependents)

CD
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I'm not going to argue with you about what is or is not on base. It's been 13 years since I was on a base in Iraq and 7 years since I was on a US Base (29 Palms). Im sure you know more about it than I do...

But, if you arm everybody on base (even just the ones with a CC permit) in the US...

For every 1 "active shooter" that you hear about on the news there will be 100 negligent discharges, domestic violence shooting, road rage shooting, drunk Russian roulette incident that you don't hear about each year.

The risks do not outweigh the benefits, especially when the "active shooter" is just a mentally exhausted brother who wants an easy out... A suicide should never have been on national news billed as an active shooter.
 
Chuckman said:
Now, if the discussion is, can we have rotated group on base who can carry/be armed, like an internal QRF or something, I am down with that
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And that's the way it used to be, at least when I was in.
 
Alabamacoastie said:
But, if you arm everybody on base (even just the ones with a CC permit) in the US...
For every 1 "active shooter" that you hear about on the news there will be 100 negligent discharges, domestic violence shooting, road rage shooting, drunk Russian roulette incident that you don't hear about each year.
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How did we get a Handgun Control ad in this forum?
 
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Im
Howland said:
Service men and women should be required to carry on base any weapon with which they've qualified.


CCPs are a state govt thing. That writ don't run on a US military installation.
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I'm trying to figure that out. I mean they ARE the military.....yet the base removes all means of being the military and stopping threats?
 
Alabamacoastie said:
I'm not going to argue with you about what is or is not on base. It's been 13 years since I was on a base in Iraq and 7 years since I was on a US Base (29 Palms). Im sure you know more about it than I do...

But, if you arm everybody on base (even just the ones with a CC permit) in the US...

For every 1 "active shooter" that you hear about on the news there will be 100 negligent discharges, domestic violence shooting, road rage shooting, drunk Russian roulette incident that you don't hear about each year.

The risks do not outweigh the benefits, especially when the "active shooter" is just a mentally exhausted brother who wants an easy out... A suicide should never have been on national news billed as an active shooter.
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This is the same argument used by the left when concealed carry was up for a vote. It was used again when we wanted a castle doctrine and again when we wanted it changed to allow carry in bars. “There will be blood in the streets and every street corner will look like the Ok Corral.”

The reality has, and never will be the apocalyptic version that people claim.

The question of carry on base is twofold. As I stated earlier it is first and foremost, not allowed to have an armed all the time military on US soil. So arming everyone at all times is A: Not allowed and B: A very bad precedent to set if we were stupid enough to allow that law to change.

The second part of the question is, should CCW people be allowed to carry their personal weapons when off duty (on duty should never be allowed per military law).

This question is both simple and complex at the same time. Any citizen should be allowed to carry anywhere they choose and members of the military are citizens (excusing the ones who join to obtain citizenship).

However, when you take the oath and sign on the line you forfeit a great many of your protected liberties in doing so. I don’t believe that it is prudent to allow non duty weapons on a base for a variety of reasons. All of those reasons are for the security of the base and it’s personnel. These incidents of mass shootings are statistically rare and throwing out military discipline in favor of arming everyone makes as much sense as banning firearms sales in the wake of a tragedy.

The solution, IMO, is an augmentation of what @Chuckman suggested. It is both legal and sane to arm all duty NCO’s. Not really sure why they stopped doing that. As well as all duty officers.

That alone would provide armed guards at every building, barracks and outpost. Second, one or two platoons of infantry could serve a revolving TAD of a month at a time as a QRF for the MP’s. This would make them armed MP’s and therefore not an issue vis a vis an armed army.
 
JohnFreeman said:
How did we get a Handgun Control ad in this forum?
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The average American with a CCP permit is very different than the average active duty military person. Im only stating the reasons why, IMO, guns should not be handed out to every active duty GI Joe on base. There would be more accidents than lives saved.

Were you in the military? Do you know how much drunken stupidity goes on from 5pm to 5am, 7 days a week, on US bases? Just imagine, and then imagine them all with a military issue handgun shoved in their pocket.

Haha!
 
K
Alabamacoastie said:
The average American with a CCP permit is very different than the average active duty military person. Im only stating the reasons why, IMO, guns should not be handed out to every active duty GI Joe on base. There would be more accidents than lives saved.

Were you in the military? Do you know how much drunken stupidity goes on from 5pm to 5am, 7 days a week, on US bases? Just imagine, and then imagine them all with a military issue handgun shoved in their pocket.

Haha!
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The stupidity is no more than what occurs at any bar of civilian flavor. Grown citizens should be afforded their 2A rights wherever they may be throughout their adult life, certainly the penalties apply and there is no reason to limit their freedoms.
 
Chdamn said:
This is the same argument used by the left when concealed carry was up for a vote. It was used again when we wanted a castle doctrine and again when we wanted it changed to allow carry in bars. “There will be blood in the streets and every street corner will look like the Ok Corral.”

The reality has, and never will be the apocalyptic version that people claim.
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When you put it that way, I understand now how my opinion on the subject sounds overboard... I certainly wouldn't want it translated over to the average US citizen.

But, as you say, when we swore in we gave up most of our freedoms. And when we retired or got an honorable discharge, we got those freedoms back.
 
OldNascar said:
Should rephrase that to include any civilian bar that allows military personnel to frequent their premises.
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Bars off base and bars on base are probably equal...

But the real fun I'm talking about happens on the third floor of the barracks, or at a family home on base, etc.... That's where it gets wild, not at the NCO club or the Officer's Club...
 
OldNascar said:
K

The stupidity is no more than what occurs at any bar of civilian flavor. Grown citizens should be afforded their 2A rights wherever they may be throughout their adult life, certainly the penalties apply and there is no reason to limit their freedoms.
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Actually the off-duty stupidity is x a billion. In fact; 95% of these kids can't even get into a bar because they are under 21.

I have seen it a couple different ways, as a corpsman being roused out of my rack at 0300 because someone did something stupid and treating "off the books", as well as working in the ED at NHCL if they the HMs couldn't control it at the barracks or BAS.
 
OldNascar said:
K

The stupidity is no more than what occurs at any bar of civilian flavor. Grown citizens should be afforded their 2A rights wherever they may be throughout their adult life, certainly the penalties apply and there is no reason to limit their freedoms.
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There are reasons to limit their freedoms and when you join you voluntarily do so. Military discipline is very hard to understand and even harder to explain. The best way I can sum it up is that the officers and nco’s above you have the duty to give you orders that may (and in some cases most assuredly will) result in your death.

To ensure those orders will be obeyed, without question, military personnel are constantly subjected to, what we commonly referred to as, Mickey Mouse bulls/$7.

Allowing everyone in the military to be armed at all times would seriously jeopardize that discipline.

Fragging officers you don’t like has always been a problem during war time. Officers would not be able to carry out their duties if they were constantly worried about being fragged in peacetime as well.

I am perfectly fine with the government and police officers having to be civil because everyone is armed. The same cannot be said for troops. It just doesn’t work.
 
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Going from armed as a civilian to the line of departure in the military armed leaving the time in between unarmed because of possibilities unknown is to play into the hands of terrorist and lessers. Times past the military bases looked the other way when a weapon was brought on base but present day attitudes and fears have the bases being an easy target. No one should be disarmed
by reason of the actions of others no matter their status. Make the military brats grow up or kick them the hell out. Guns are a way of life in America and the sooner one learns the responsibility of carrying one the better.
 
OldNascar said:
Going from armed as a civilian to the line of departure in the military armed leaving the time in between unarmed because of possibilities unknown is to play into the hands of terrorist and lessers. Times past the military bases looked the other way when a weapon was brought on base but present day attitudes and fears have the bases being an easy target. No one should be disarmed
by reason of the actions of others no matter their status. Make the military brats grow up or kick them the hell out. Guns are a way of life in America and the sooner one learns the responsibility of carrying one the better.
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OldNascar said:
Going from armed as a civilian to the line of departure in the military armed leaving the time in between unarmed because of possibilities unknown is to play into the hands of terrorist and lessers. Times past the military bases looked the other way when a weapon was brought on base but present day attitudes and fears have the bases being an easy target. No one should be disarmed
by reason of the actions of others no matter their status. Make the military brats grow up or kick them the hell out. Guns are a way of life in America and the sooner one learns the responsibility of carrying one the better.
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This is why we have dreamers, right? You are a dreamer. Besides the law, pragmatism, policy, and operationalizing a "guns everywhere" policy, your philosophy is....nice.

"Make the military brats grow up or kick them the hell out." That is at best very simplistic, at worse extremely naive.
 
I was a Navy division officer, and I know the types of E-2's you are talking about. I had some of them. There were times it was really easy to get rid of them, other times not so much, depending on things like funding ebbs and flows, whether we were deployed, and exactly what he did. And some of them were actually useful in their jobs, you wouldn't want to get rid of them, but you wouldn't want to give them a gun, either. I thought the NCO/Officer compromise was pretty good.
 
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Chuckman said:
This is why we have dreamers, right? You are a dreamer. Besides the law, pragmatism, policy, and operationalizing a "guns everywhere" policy, your philosophy is....nice.

"Make the military brats grow up or kick them the hell out." That is at best very simplistic, at worse extremely naive.
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Dreamer my ass, reality is bring back the draft and replace the brats with grown ups. Many talk make America great again but when it gets down to it those like you have a million excuses for continuing further degradation.
 
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OldNascar said:
Dreamer my ass, reality is bring back the draft and replace the brats with grown ups. Many talk make America great again but when it gets down to it those like you have a million excuses for continuing further degradation.
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we currently have an all volunteer army. Why would we have a draft right now? What’s the justification for that? I’m asking respectfully, just trying to understand your side of the discussion.
 
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