Cop encounters with NFA items

JohnFreeman

The bane of my existence
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While I'm not in the same league as BW, I've done my fair share of stamp collecting over the recent years and really enjoy shooting the Title II items. The items the trust contains are all tax paid of course and everything is on the up and up. That having been said, I've never (yet) encountered a LEO type while using an NFA toy... MG/SBS/Can, etc.

How about the rest of you... have any of you had first hand experience encountering LEO while enjoying a MG, or a SBR or Can?

If so, please share your story.....
 
Anyone keep a reduced copy of their paperwork in their range bag while shooting NFA items? I know BigWaylon would need a Sherpa and a suitcase but I have heard some folks say "piss off" its only the business of the ATF while others keep a reduced copy on them to placate any potential type of LE run in or questions.

Me personally I have never had anything happen except a lot of interest from fellow shooters with genuine questions about the "how-to's and how much". Those folks I always offer up a few mags and answer what questions I can for them.
 
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Few if any local officers get any training on NFA laws or the firearms affected. You will most likely never run into an officer that ask you about your NFA items outide of curiosity.

As for interactions with LE, I have had one. Years ago I was attending a NFA shoot in in Virginia where there was a ton of Machine Guns, silencers, etc. We were shooting full auto when we were approached by 2 Virginia Wildlife Officers. They asked if we had all paperwork in place at which time it became apparentthey wouldn't know what the paperwork looked like if they saw it. I asked one if he had ever seen the proper forms and admitted he hadn't so one of the guys walked them thru his binder of approved Forms so they could see them. Also walked them thru the NFA process and they admitted they'd never been trained on it nor had they run into a situation where the training would have been needed.

In a nutshell you'll catch more strife from other gun owners than Law Enforcement
 
JustKeepSwimming;n36611 said:
Anyone keep a reduced copy of their paperwork in their range bag while shooting NFA items? I know BigWaylon would need a Sherpa and a suitcase but I have heard some folks say "piss off" its only the business of the ATF while others keep a reduced copy on them to placate any potential type of LE run in or questions.

Me personally I have never had anything happen except a lot of interest from fellow shooters with genuine questions about the "how-to's and how much". Those folks I always offer up a few mags and answer what questions I can for them.

I think some of mine still have reduced copies stuck in the grip, but I've never pulled them out. I do keep a binder in my range bag with copies of page 1 of the stamps, plus a copy of the Cert of Trust (which lists the three trustees) and valid 5320.20.

I have them on my iPhone in iBooks (first page, in PDF format). That app works offline as well. They can be viewed in list form, or thumbnails.

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Yes...they're private tax documents, but I'd show them to a cop to prevent taking a ride. Not sure if I'd show them to a range officer or not. I'd show them I had them and then it would depend on how bad I wanted to shoot that day. Under no circumstance would they hang on to my forms while I was there or make copies.

I've shown them to others (at ranges, gun shows, etc) for educational purposes, but that's it.
 
That pretty much reinforces my expectations. Cops cant possibly know all the minutia about all of the 11 bazillion laws on the books, and while I've not encountered one I always have a version of my stamps with me.

I'd show 'em to a cop too, even though there's no mandate to do so. It irks me to have to show them to range guys (why the hell do they care? They're under no requirement to validate NFA paperwork) but I choose my battles. I usually hand them my binder and they paw through the pages looking studious for a few sec before handing it back (and generally before finding the stamps for the items I have with me too)

NFA stuff is pretty arcane (less so every day, as suppressors get more popular and trusts replaced CLEO autographs) and you're right... many gun owners are almost as clueless as the general public when it comes to NFA/MG's

I too like to share my toys if someone shows interest (and the proper attitude towards safety). Yeah, I know it's a liability, but life is short and there's fun to he had.
 
And the sheeple wonder why we fight so damn hard against 'reasonable rules and regulations', and then look astonished when we dispute the State's ability to competently participate?
Can you imagine if we insisted on the same rig-a-ma-row to use cell phones and laptops? Because child porn you-know...kinda/maybe/might could be/never know/if we can save just one child..
What next? Am I gonna have to pack in a Lawyer every time I go to the range?

ridiculous.
 
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I've taken several LEO's shooting and also brought them to the farm to look at goodies.

Back around 96 I was stopped by a pair of State Troopers in Illinois with my MP5SD in the truck. I was enroute to a shooting range on a national park that was in Indiana, but the only entrance to the range was through Illinois. I had an Indiana DL, Indiana license plates, and the cops knew the range that I was headed to.

I informed them of the firearm in the truck when they walked up to the window (it was in the back), and they asked to see it. When I opened up the case they both looked at one another with a WTF look. I don't suppose that they encountered freedom very often...
 
I do keep a shrunk down, laminated copy in my range bag. I only have a few so it's easy to hide them somewhere in my bag.

As for LE, I'll gladly show them if it'll help me get on my way quicker/easier. I have many LE friends, and they don't know the first thing about NFA with the exception of 1 who is a gun guy and member on CSC (reminds me to tell him to join over here). They usually ask me most gun questions.
 
JustKeepSwimming said:
Anyone keep a reduced copy of their paperwork in their range bag while shooting NFA items? I know BigWaylon would need a Sherpa and a suitcase but I have heard some folks say "piss off" its only the business of the ATF while others keep a reduced copy on them to placate any potential type of LE run in or questions.

Me personally I have never had anything happen except a lot of interest from fellow shooters with genuine questions about the "how-to's and how much". Those folks I always offer up a few mags and answer what questions I can for them.
I keep a 30% size black and white copy in my bag (IIRC, I've read about color copies of stamps being a no-no...even though an e-file stamp is, technically"
 
I have copies on my phone. I have been asked by a RO but never by LEO. My response is a very confident yes sir and have never been asked to show them. If I didn't have my phone I'd bluff "I'm not required to carry the actual stamps with me, copies of the forms were files with the sheriff in accordance with ATF Regs so I assume you can ask them to look it up or call ATF; they really didn't put any thought into enforcement did they."
 
I used to carry small laminated copies, too much trouble, I just put a copy in the pistold grip or carry case for the suppressor, I usually shoot at the FOP range, only once did 2 off duty officers asked how I liked the wait time, no doubt my response would have let them know if I had the paperwork, just told them it was a long wait and a waste of 200.00.. they walked away telling me to have a good day.
 
I'm new to the game, but because I took a two-stamp rifle to the woods with me this past deer season, I took black and white copies of the stamps and 5320.20.
 
JustKeepSwimming said:
Anyone keep a reduced copy of their paperwork in their range bag while shooting NFA items? I know BigWaylon would need a Sherpa and a suitcase but I have heard some folks say "piss off" its only the business of the ATF while others keep a reduced copy on them to placate any potential type of LE run in or questions.

Me personally I have never had anything happen except a lot of interest from fellow shooters with genuine questions about the "how-to's and how much". Those folks I always offer up a few mags and answer what questions I can for them.
Yup. Change of address form as well.
 
I keep copies as well. I have provided them to every person on the trust as well and instructed them to keep them with the item they are in charge of at all times. Only had curious questions from other enthusiast. Never had an experience with on duty LEO. My neighbor is friends with a PD guy that does only firearms cases. We had a conversation once about title II items. Sadly he admitted he was not versed in the subject.

I figure if I don't act like a dick, the LEO probably will not either.
 
I carry a copy in the range bag but I've never been asked for it not even by a few LEO's I've shot with. When I first got the stamp and started taking the SBR to the range I figured I'd be asked for it all the time, everyone knows you have to have paperwork and a stamp to own one, right? Nope. Those that know don't care and those that don't know, well, don't know. Really surprised me.
 
bigfelipe said:
Catch crap about SIG braces but never my NFA items...
Was gonna post about the same. Ive got a KAK brace, every trip the RO or somebody else thinks it's an SBR.. I kinda feel obligated to correct them.. They see a can on a pistol and everybody giggles about how cool it is but "not quite Hollywood quiet".
 
Usually once your in the game, you keep a copy on your phone..In the beginning I was real paranoid about keeping a copy with the can...I keep a binder with copy of everything in my desk, and 50% laminate in my EDC bag.I tell folks it a tax receipt but to keep from the man out of your life just show him the stamp.
 
Well, after talking to a local Sheriff at the gun store it was obvious he was clueless about it. The look on his face when I told him I did NOT have to show him my paperwork on my can was hilarious. I also told him I most likely would, depending on his attitude. And that he needed to understand that we did not have too, and he needed to approach folks knowing that. Basically, I burst his bubble a little. The guy behind the counter just smiled and nodded his head to everything I told the LEO. Then we started talking about MG's and got that look again.
 
BigWaylon;n36693 said:
I think some of mine still have reduced copies stuck in the grip, but I've never pulled them out. I do keep a binder in my range bag with copies of page 1 of the stamps, plus a copy of the Cert of Trust (which lists the three trustees) and valid 5320.20.

I have them on my iPhone in iBooks (first page, in PDF format). That app works offline as well. They can be viewed in list form, or thumbnails.

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Yes...they're private tax documents, but I'd show them to a cop to prevent taking a ride. Not sure if I'd show them to a range officer or not. I'd show them I had them and then it would depend on how bad I wanted to shoot that day. Under no circumstance would they hang on to my forms while I was there or make copies.

I've shown them to others (at ranges, gun shows, etc) for educational purposes, but that's it.

Pretty smart putting them in your phone - I may scan mine and do that. I have copies in my range bag that always travels with me. They end up getting wadded up and in a mess by the end of a year or so and I make more copies.
 
Jointdoc;n37741 said:
Pretty smart putting them in your phone - I may scan mine and do that. I have copies in my range bag that always travels with me. They end up getting wadded up and in a mess by the end of a year or so and I make more copies.

There are some people that will say not to do it. The reasoning is because they don't want to hand their phone over to LEO, which could give consent for them to look at something else. That may only be in the case you used an NFA firearm in a self defense situation (or some other reason the police were called), but I wanted to put it out there. It's also why I have the binder with paper copies handy, in case I prefer that method due to the circumstances.
 
chiefjason;n37653 said:
Well, after talking to a local Sheriff at the gun store it was obvious he was clueless about it. The look on his face when I told him I did NOT have to show him my paperwork on my can was hilarious. I also told him I most likely would, depending on his attitude. And that he needed to understand that we did not have too, and he needed to approach folks knowing that. Basically, I burst his bubble a little. The guy behind the counter just smiled and nodded his head to everything I told the LEO. Then we started talking about MG's and got that look again.

Wait till he realizes he can't simply call ATF and verify your paperwork if he wanted to either since it's private information.
 
Well since I am a LE Firearms Instructor, I'll chime in. I can assure you that there is no state mandated training on NFA. It was just in 2016 that NCJA mandated a block of training on interacting with CCH holders, which was way overdue. As most have mentioned here, the reality is that there are very few encounters with folks with NFA items. I would imagine that beyond us full time instructors, there are only a handful of officers who are in or aware of the NFA game. Common sense goes a long way if you ever have an interaction with LE while shooting/possessing NFA toys. Explain it to the officer politely and ya should be good. Having a copy of your Form 1/4 would go a long way as well. I usually do.
 
JustKeepSwimming said:
Anyone keep a reduced copy of their paperwork in their range bag while shooting NFA items? I know BigWaylon would need a Sherpa and a suitcase but I have heard some folks say "piss off" its only the business of the ATF while others keep a reduced copy on them to placate any potential type of LE run in or questions.

Me personally I have never had anything happen except a lot of interest from fellow shooters with genuine questions about the "how-to's and how much". Those folks I always offer up a few mags and answer what questions I can for them.
I have all mine as PDFs on my old Galaxy S4 Mini
 
I keep 1/2 size laminated copies in my range bag.The only public range I have carried the cans to was at Flintlock shooting range.RO lady asked questions about guns and cans,mostly out of curiosity I think.
 
I carry copies of my documents in a 3 ring binder. However the only people that have ever asked to see it were range officers, I guess to ensure they were not allowing anyone to commit a crime on their range.

I have had contact with Police, Sheriff Deputies, and Border Patrol Agents. No one have really cared.
 
There a few cops that are members at my "gun club" & not once have any of them "identified" as LE & asked about my toys. I've only ever gotten 2 responses from people about my NFA goodies- either "stamp collector, eh?" or the misinformed "how'd you get a "Class 3" license?"

Almost universally, the NFA neophytes' next response is "holy crap, can I shoot it?", whereupon I gladly let them do so. If they express a desire to procure such an item for themselves, I happily explain to them just how easy it is to join the NFA world.
 
I'm not a lawyer so take this as just my 2 cents when it comes to showing tax stamps to local law enforcement. First they would not be investigating the federal transfer or possession of the item they would be investigating the possession of the item under state law. Most people confuse the need to show the tax stamp, trust or corporation documents to only ATF for inspection when requested by a ATF agent as the only agents that are allowed to see or look at your tax stamps, trust or corporation documents.

Local law enforcement in North Carolina are investigating the criminal possession of a weapon of mass destruction (North Carolina General Statute § 14-288.8. Manufacture, assembly, possession, storage, transportation, sale, purchase, delivery, or acquisition of weapon of mass death and destruction; exceptions). In that North Carolina General Statute it states that possession of such items are illegal unless the meet one of the following exceptions; (Subsection (5) is the important paragraph that will apply to what we are talking about)

(b) This section does not apply to any of the following:

(1) Persons exempted from the provisions of G.S. 14-269 with respect to any activities lawfully engaged in while carrying out their duties.

(2) Importers, manufacturers, dealers, and collectors of firearms, ammunition, or destructive devices validly licensed under the laws of the United States or the State of North Carolina, while lawfully engaged in activities authorized under their licenses.

(3) Persons under contract with the United States, the State of North Carolina, or any agency of either government, with respect to any activities lawfully engaged in under their contracts.

(4) Inventors, designers, ordnance consultants and researchers, chemists, physicists, and other persons lawfully engaged in pursuits designed to enlarge knowledge or to facilitate the creation, development, or manufacture of weapons of mass death and destruction intended for use in a manner consistent with the laws of the United States and the State of North Carolina.

(5) Persons who lawfully possess or own a weapon as defined in subsection (c) of this section in compliance with 26 U.S.C. Chapter 53, §§ 5801-5871. Nothing in this subdivision shall limit the discretion of the sheriff in executing the paperwork required by the United States Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms for such person to obtain the weapon.


If a local law enforcement officer is investigating someone shooting or possessing a weapon that is defined below; (Subsection (3) is the important paragraph that will apply to what we are talking about)


(c) The term "weapon of mass death and destruction" includes:

(1) Any explosive or incendiary:

a. Bomb; or

b. Grenade; or

c. Rocket having a propellant charge of more than four ounces; or

d. Missile having an explosive or incendiary charge of more than one-quarter ounce; or

e. Mine; or

f. Device similar to any of the devices described above; or

(2) Any type of weapon (other than a shotgun or a shotgun shell of a type particularly suitable for sporting purposes) which will, or which may be readily converted to, expel a projectile by the action of an explosive or other propellant, and which has any barrel with a bore of more than one-half inch in diameter; or

(3) Any firearm capable of fully automatic fire, any shotgun with a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches in length or an overall length of less than 26 inches, any rifle with a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length or an overall length of less than 26 inches, any muffler or silencer for any firearm, whether or not such firearm is included within this definition. For the purposes of this section, rifle is defined as a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder; or

(4) Any combination of parts either designed or intended for use in converting any device into any weapon described above and from which a weapon of mass death and destruction may readily be assembled.

And you are found in possession of a item defined above in subsection (3) it is prima facie that you are in violation of NCGS 14-288.8. So if you do not show proof that you meet the exception in subsection (5) above you can be arrested for possession of a weapon of mass destruction and your NFA item seized as evidence until trial. If you do not show them proof you are not violating the law how else are they going to know? If you think they can call some magic ATF number and run your name you are mistaken. More than likely you will be found not guilty but thats after paying a lawyer enough money that you could have bought another NFA item and the lawyer shows the tax stamps and other documents to the DA and Judge.

So my question is why would chance being arrested and your property being seized until trail if all you have to do is take a minute of your time and show a few documents that most local law enforcement officers will not understand (as mentioned several times above local officers don't receive a lot of training regarding NFA items). Just remember you are not being inspected for federal law compliance, you are being criminally investigated for the violation of a North Carolina State Statute which every sworn local law enforcement officer has subject matter jurisdiction. Sorry for the long lengthy post. As for me I will show my tax stamps or documents to any local or federal law enforcement officer that ask to see them.
 
What would constitute probable cause for a NC state LE to suspect that possession of such an item is illegal, and to demand proof that it's not?
 
I have one rolled up in my grip.
If I get pulled over with a firearm in the truck I immediately disclose it. 99% of the time the officers just said “where is it? Thanks for telling me.”
The only time I ever had an officer get nuts about a gun in the car, I was leaving Calibers in Greensboro. Admittedly I was speeding down market Street Headed towards Kernersville. Got pulled over told the officer he immediately took a step back put his hand on his gun and proceeded to order me out of the car. I complied while he retrieved the pistol. He made a really big deal about the gun. Running the numbers, throwing it on the roof of my car after he disassembled it “making it safe”
That dude was on a power trip. He is the kind of police officer that I worry about when I take my SBR to the range. I can only imagine how he would’ve flipped out if I had had that back then. So my long winded point is that I will always show my tax stamp if asked to LEO’s just to save myself a headache. But Fudds at the range can pound sand.
 
Ive had a few police/gun NFA/ATF interactions over the last 30 years. None ended badly but all of them could have . Ive always felt that the less info getting thrown around the better for everyone. Name, rank and serial number. Let them earn the rest.
 
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