1911 owners - Can you put the safety on with the hammer down?

I suspect you friend had his thumb on the hammer spur, which is risky business. It is nearly impossible to 'lose control' if you hook your thumb over the top of the hammer, with the end of your thumb between the hammer and slide.
Where you get in trouble is, as you state, in the placement of the thumb but in order to allow the hammer to rest fully against the slide you will have to give up the thumbs placement and in time one will pass the line of safety for convenience and the resultant discharge. As the Colt ad states there is one safe way to carry and a round under the hammer is not best practice.
 
Here's another shot from the '84 G&A I picked up as part of the birth year gun thread. I thought this was an interesting note from Colt and it seemed appropriate to post here...

FWIW, I carry a 1911 cocked and locked.

View attachment 245085

Every gun manual I have ever read says to not carry the gun loaded. It's a liability thing more than Anything else.
 
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I'll admit that it's been a while since I've carried a 1911. If I decide to carry one tomorrow, it will be cocked and locked with one in the chamber. It just wouldn't seem right any other way.
 
Every gun manual I have ever read says to not carry the gun loaded. It's a liability thing more than Anything else.

The interesting thing to me is that Colt made the effort to put out a full page ad.

The other thing that strikes me are all the cigarette ads. Holy cow.
 
Ive had to explain to people before that its ok to have a revolver fully loaded, and carry it.... they didn't realize that a modern one with a transfer bar or frame mounted firing pin was safe.
 
How is it possible that someone would have enough awareness of "the old way" and have no awareness of the way revolvers have been made for over half a century?
Because there are still a lot of the old designs floating around? Have a non-converted 3-screw Ruger in your collection? I believe some Colt SAA clones didn't have the hammer block. And who knows about some the cheap stuff out there.

Just sayin'
 
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Because there are still a lot of the old designs floating around? Have a non-converted 3-screw Ruger in your collection? I believe some Colt SAA clones didn't have the hammer block. And who knows about some the cheap stuff out there.

Just sayin'

All that is true, but its still pretty odd when you are showing someone the S&W 329pd you happen to be carrying one day, only to have someone about panic when they realize it had 6 rounds in it! "DID THAT HAVE A ROUND UNDER THE HAMMER?!?!?" and about have a panic attack.
 
No. None of mine do that and I can’t think of a good reason to set the safety with the hammer down. Or to lower the hammer for that matter. I don't even do that when they go into storage.
 
Just a mechanical question.

The answer is no. If the manual safety on a 1911 will engage with the hammer down, there's somethin' outta whack. What purpose would be served by engaging a safety when the pistol can't fire anyway?

The manual safety is supposed to lock the slide to prevent it being pushed out of battery when reholstered, and possibly not returning after redrawing it...a distinct possibility under battlefield conditions. That's the "locked" part of cocked and locked.

The thumb safety blocks the sear and locks the slide. It does not block or lock the hammer.

The grip safety was and is a drop safety. A dropped pistol is more likely to land muzzle up than muzzle down. A muzzle down discharge is of little to no consequence. Muzzle up is bad JuJu.

Cheers!
 
Lowering the hammer one-handed as described in JMB's patent works fine.

Time was that the only manual safety was the half cock notch, as noted in the 1910 patents.

"When it became necessary to lower the hammer to the safety position without touching the firing pin."

Prior to the 1911, all of Browning's open hammer guns utilized the half cock as the only manual safety. Examples are the Models 1892 and 1894 carbines, and the 1897 shotgun.

The one notable exception was the Model 1900 Colt pistol with its optional, ill-conceived rear sight safety, which wasn't Browning's idea. It was so awkward and unpopular that the few people who bought them with the safety soon returned them to have them removed. The option was quietly dropped.

Yes, lowering a hammer on a hot chamber carries some risk. Care and full attention is required, but it's not something that's normally done in a mad rush unless you're on the back of a frightened, unruly horse in the middle of a pitched battle...which is why the manual, slide locking safety was added to the Model 1910 as the final modification before being adopted by the US Army.
 
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Here’s how you can rack the slide with thumb safety engaged. Not the best pictures, but all I could Google in 5 minutes. Novak NeXT

Seems like a lot of trouble to go to unless it's for compliance in a state that requires that the safety be engaged while clearing a chamber. I guess some people just can't grasp the concept that if you don't want the gun to fire, don't touch the trigger. I've known that since I was like...five or six.
 
So trade away a bit of functionality, stays in battery when holstering so you know it's in battery on the draw, for a bit of security, can clear with safety engaged.
It’s good to have options.
 
So trade away a bit of functionality, for a bit of security

No, thank you. Never got into the habit of trusting mechanical safeties anyway.

It’s good to have options.

I guess it makes sense for people who can't seem to remember where their fingers are while they're clearing the weapon, but such people probably shouldn't be handling dangerous machinery at all.
 
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Novice 1911 owner here. My Springfield range officer does not allow the safety to engage if the hammer is down. Purchased this year.
 
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No, thank you. Never got into the habit of trusting mechanical safeties anyway.

I have had a few times when a mechanical safety let me down big time. My first double barrel SXS, a Nobel of ignoble construction, shot one barrel one time when I released the tang safety while my grubby little 11 year old finger was nowhere near the trigger. I had a 290 Winchester 22 go full auto on me when I released the safety one time. The safety is outside the trigger guard so my finger was not on the trigger. Both of those guns are gone. My uncle bought a Mossberg bolt action 22 when he was young and took a stone to the trigger to make it lighter. He went a little too far, and the rifle would often fire when the safety was released.

Nash Buckingham did not have a safety on his favorite custom shotgun. He only loaded it when he was about to shoot. My elk guide will not allow his hunters to walk around with a loaded chamber and the safety on. Either the chamber is empty or the bolt is somewhat open. I never used a safety at all the last several trips.
 
BTW.... nothing about this thread has to do with carrying or using the gun. Just a mechanical question.


{of course, a thread can go anywhere it wants, once it's in the wild}

And why most of the thread turned to a discussion of being able to cycle the slide with the safety engaged, rather than your original question regarding safety up/hammer down..

But no as noted a few times, you should NOT be able to engage the safety with the hammer down. Proper fitting of the safety to the sear, should prevent this.

Now there IS an after-market kit available that is intended to allow you to carry the gun safety on/hammer lowered. but it doubles or triples the number of fire control parts including adding a number of little fiddly springs, and works kind of goofy. In that you load the gun, engage the thumb safety, then push the hammer forward to a "down" position. Then when you disengage the safety the hammer pops back out to the cocked position. My reaction upon seeing it in action was "why?" and "not willing to carry a gun with that in it"
 
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Modifying a safety is just plain stupid. In the hands of the uninformed the rate of errant discharges will multiply defeating the intending exercise. Leave it alone and learned to handle it safely in it’s original state. Sooner or later a modified 1911 will be pasted on the an heir or some other unsuspecting soul causing harm.
 
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Modifying a safety is just plain stupid. In the hands of the uninformed the rate of errant discharges will multiply defeating the intending exercise. Leave it alone and learned to handle it safely in it’s original state. Sooner or later a modified 1911 will be pasted on the an heir or some other unsuspecting soul causing harm.


That depends on the modification. I see no danger in having the slide capable of being moved with the safety on since it does not affect the fire control parts.
 
That depends on the modification. I see no danger in having the slide capable of being moved with the safety on since it does not affect the fire control parts.
It is a distraction from the normal functionality of the 1911, distractions are not an asset to safe handling of a firearm.
 
I see some mention and pics of altered thumb safeties to allow the slide to retract with the safety engaged. I have a question...since the engaged safety locks the sear, if the hammer was down, wouldn't pulling the slide back cause the hammer hooks to rub and hop over the sear engagement surface with some force, and perhaps over time ruin the engagement surfaces (and a nice crisp trigger break)?
 
I see some mention and pics of altered thumb safeties to allow the slide to retract with the safety engaged. I have a question...since the engaged safety locks the sear, if the hammer was down, wouldn't pulling the slide back cause the hammer hooks to rub and hop over the sear engagement surface with some force, and perhaps over time ruin the engagement surfaces (and a nice crisp trigger break)?
The way it's done here does Not allow the safety to be on and the hammer Down. I can't imagine why that would help anything. The loading and unloading with the safety on is a quite practical "change". The folks that can't grasp how this works would not adapt well to the many Colts and Sigs and many others that are SA in design but allow loading with the safety On. If a person becomes so ingrained in a particular thing they seem to become blind to the idea that something else Will on occasion work. This doesn't mean work better for all, however if you like the many small "Kinda 1911s", Colt .380s, Sig .380s and 9mms and many other smaller carriable guns then having the Ability to load and unload with the safety on, won't be a distraction to you. If these kind of things cause such a great distraction to you, Perhaps you shouldn't carry any firearm. I am adaptable to any firearms platform once instructed to proper usage. Some folks are not. There are also Some folks that are locked in on One way of doing anything to the point they "can't" understand why anybody would want having an option. I am certain I have been shooting 1911s as long as anybody on this forum. Dare say I, pretty damn well also. Being able to load and unload with the safety On doesn't distract me one bit.
I am as always Open to New ideas. I have a great many 1911s But I am always open to anybody showing me how I can improve. I am here Every day.
 
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All this slide safety business does is allow those that can’t keep their finger off the trigger to do so with little to no harm but then one handles the original correctly designed 1911 their once safe finger does the opposite. Leave it alone.
 
The way it's done here does Not allow the safety to be on and the hammer Down. I can't imagine why that would help anything. The loading and unloading with the safety on is a quite practical "change". The folks that can't grasp how this works would not adapt well to the many Colts and Sigs and many others that are SA in design but allow loading with the safety On. If a person becomes so ingrained in a particular thing they seem to become blind to the idea that something else Will on occasion work. This doesn't mean work better for all, however if you like the many small "Kinda 1911s", Colt .380s, Sig .380s and 9mms and many other smaller carriable guns then having the Ability to load and unload with the safety on, won't be a distraction to you. If these kind of things cause such a great distraction to you, Perhaps you shouldn't carry any firearm. I am adaptable to any firearms platform once instructed to proper usage. Some folks are not. There are also Some folks that are locked in on One way of doing anything to the point they "can't" understand why anybody would want having an option. I am certain I have been shooting 1911s as long as anybody on this forum. Dare say I, pretty damn well also. Being able to load and unload with the safety On doesn't distract me one bit.
I am as always Open to New ideas. I have a great many 1911s But I am always open to anybody showing me how I can improve. I am here Every day.
Thanks for the clarification on the hammer down part. I understand better what the purpose is for the modification.
However, with many handguns obvuously there is no manual safety, and other than the 4 safety rules, no mechanical preventative to a ND.
In direct reply to your statement, if one can't trust themselves to not handle the firearm safely and rely on a safety to simply charge the weapon, maybe that person should "not carry any firearm."
 
Thanks for the clarification on the hammer down part. I understand better what the purpose is for the modification.
However, with many handguns obvuously there is no manual safety, and other than the 4 safety rules, no mechanical preventative to a ND.
In direct reply to your statement, if one can't trust themselves to not handle the firearm safely and rely on a safety to simply charge the weapon, maybe that person should "not carry any firearm."
‘Not carry any firearm’....BS, not carry a modified firearm, damned straight.
 
If only JMB was still here in 2020 to explain himself.

Reading the patents works.

Some things are self-explanatory.

Others are hidden in plain sight and require some thought and analysis...like the little kink in the plunger spring that keeps the assembly from launching when the thumb safety is removed...or the small lip at the top of the left side grip panel that supports the plunger tube from below to prevent loosening and holds it firmly against the frame if it does happen to loosen...which isn't likely if it's staked correctly.

Or the sear and hammer pins that sit about .003 inch above flush so the thumb safety doesn't mar the frame.

There's a whole list of such "little things" that most people don't notice, and that too many manufacturers no longer implement...if they knew about them in the first place.
 
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