My most recent experience with Triangle Shooting Academy

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mhuxtable

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Just wanted to share this situation with TSA (and more specifically their gunsmith) that I've got going on.

For starters: I think the TSA gunsmith is incredibly talented & I've alway been pleased with his work & his turnaround (even when slow...the man is busy and understandably so).

2 months ago I dropped off a S&W 686 Pro to have him do some work. Simple work. Replace a spring I lost, smooth out the internals a bit. I'd tried to work on it myself, but this is the first newer S&W I'd worked on & the MIM parts threw me for a loop.

About a month in I call and get the assistant on the phone, just asking for an update. He says the gunsmith says it will be ready next week. Cool.

I call at the end of the week, no answer, I leave a message.

I call 2 weeks later, no answer, I leave a message.

I call the "operator" at TSA to see if they can find him, no answer.

So I finally reach out to the TSA instagram page over the weekend. He says he'll check into it on Tuesday.

Yesterday he basically says the gunsmith is out for the week & I need to talk to the owner. That feels very weird. I email Bill & he tells me the gunsmith has gone on vacation / taking care of his health & that's all he knows. He said he texted the gunsmith but he did not respond.

Now I am all for taking vacation & taking care of yourself. Especially during covid & with how busy he has been. I'm not pissed about that. I'm pissed I've called 3 times & no one would answer my calls. I'm pissed that my gun has been out of my hands for 2 months & the best the owner can do is tell me "I don't know when you'll get it back". I told him I understand the gunsmith is a business inside his business, but at the end of the day, its TSA's name on the door.

So that's where I'm at. I haven't had my gun in 2 months. I have no idea where it is (well it supposedly in the gunsmith's safe that no one can get into). I have no idea when I'll get it back.

Just beware.
 
mhuxtable said:
It seems to be they physically can't get to it. It's supposedly in a safe they can't get in.
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Maybe you showing up and having a direct convo with the owner will get him on the slacker gunsmithā€™s caboose, instead of you having to chase it.
 
Ask Bill to send the smith a letter to contact him to schedule a time for you, the customer, to get your property back. Did you get a receipt or invoice for the work to be done to the pistol?
 
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Sounds like some sort of extenuating circumstances with the gunsmith's health. I mean, he knows his reputation is on the line. Why would he risk that? I'd show up and talk to the owner and see if there's anything they can do to get in the safe, arrange to meet the gunsmith or have him send an agent. My concern is that he die with those guns locked up.
 
I'm concerned about the possibility of him dying as well to be honest, but I didn't want to bring that up. This is the last exchange we had:

Me: So basically my gun is held hostage and I have no way of getting it back even if I wanted to? Imagine your car was dropped off at the shop and 2 months of no contact the owner told you the mechanic had to leave and has no way of getting your car back or when youā€™ll get it back. Would you find that acceptable?

Bill: No, but I donā€™t know of any alternatives....
 
mhuxtable said:
I'm concerned about the possibility of him dying as well to be honest, but I didn't want to bring that up. This is the last exchange we had:

Me: So basically my gun is held hostage and I have no way of getting it back even if I wanted to? Imagine your car was dropped off at the shop and 2 months of no contact the owner told you the mechanic had to leave and has no way of getting your car back or when youā€™ll get it back. Would you find that acceptable?

Bill: No, but I donā€™t know of any alternatives....
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You need to tell him that you see no alternative but to seek legal recourse, and copy the owner.
 
The gunsmith is a separate ffl I believe.

Other than that I have never really been impressed with what I hear about his customer service. Stuff either seems to be done decently quickly or thrown into the abyss until people give up and take their guns back.
 
Iā€™ve dealt with Capp back when he was in Garner. He has done some work for me and sometimes it was a fairly quick turnaround but there were a few times it was slow which I knew he could be. Capp is just shy of 70 years old so he might be taking C-19 distancing more serious than some of us due to age or such also. Now that does not excuse him from not returning calls or emails ...

Once I got in good with Joel Pendergraft I took everything to him ... he too is getting older and Iā€™m worried about the day he ā€œretiresā€ again :( ... so I havenā€™t seen Capp in years outside of saying ā€œHiā€ at TSA when they first opened. I believe Capp is more of an ā€œindependent contractorā€ at TSA (and as others said maintains his on FFL book) so the TSA more a ā€œlandlordā€.

Bill and the other owner really should be able to reach him ...
 
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It's possible he's in the hospital with Covid. Hippo laws prevent the owner of TSA telling you.
 
I had experience with Kapp Ogburn prior to the existence of TSA. My impression was that he may have had decent smithing skills - I wouldnā€™t know, I never got anything back from him - but he had no regard whatsoever for doing work on anything like a timely basis. Work came in, and never went out. He still has a peep sight of mine that he promised ā€œin a weekā€ more than a decade ago, after I agreed to a very high price. I finally walked away, didnā€™t need the aggravation any more. My advice is get your revolver however you can, as soon as you can. I think Mr Ogburn may have some personal problems. It gives me no pleasure to make this post.
 
mhuxtable said:
I'm concerned about the possibility of him dying as well to be honest, but I didn't want to bring that up. This is the last exchange we had:

Me: So basically my gun is held hostage and I have no way of getting it back even if I wanted to? Imagine your car was dropped off at the shop and 2 months of no contact the owner told you the mechanic had to leave and has no way of getting your car back or when youā€™ll get it back. Would you find that acceptable?

Bill: No, but I donā€™t know of any alternatives....
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Iā€™m sure Bill knows a locksmith that could break into a safe. There is always alternatives. Iā€™d be looking for some serious compensation for the loss of that firearm for this time and how you have been treated. Some free range sessions would be the least they could do. You shoot free as much as you want until your gun comes home.
 
CZfool68 said:
Iā€™m sure Bill knows a locksmith that could break into a safe. There is always alternatives. Iā€™d be looking for some serious compensation for the loss of that firearm for this time and how you have been treated. Some free range sessions would be the least they could do. You shoot free as much as you want until your gun comes home.
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Bill did offer some free range time but didn't say how much. TSA is a solid 30 minute drive from me though and not somewhere I plan on frequenting after this experience.
 
Red Marley said:
I had experience with Kapp Ogburn prior to the existence of TSA. My impression was that he may have had decent smithing skills - I wouldnā€™t know, I never got anything back from him - but he had no regard whatsoever for doing work on anything like a timely basis. Work came in, and never went out. He still has a peep sight of mine that he promised ā€œin a weekā€ more than a decade ago, after I agreed to a very high price. I finally walked away, didnā€™t need the aggravation any more. My advice is get your revolver however you can, as soon as you can. I think Mr Ogburn may have some personal problems. It gives me no pleasure to make this post.
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Buddy of mine took his garand up there cause it wouldn't extract rounds. 4 months later and several calls buddy finally goes up there to grab it, cause I told him I would look at it. Gunsmith said the op rod was bent, headspace was out and several other issues. Buddy took it to me, and 30 seconds later I found that all it needed was an extractor spring. Gun runs like a sewing machine, and honestly I doubt it was even looked at.
 
shadowsbane said:
Gunsmith said the op rod was bent, headspace was out and several other issues. Buddy took it to me, and 30 seconds later I found that all it needed was an extractor spring. Gun runs like a sewing machine, and honestly I doubt it was even looked at.
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It's supposed to be bent. in 2 places, even.
seems like a new extractor spring would be the FIRST thing to try for any rifle that's not extracting... but i'm no gunsmith.
 
Seems to me that TSA just bought your gun at MSRP lol, all they have to do is write you a check.

If he is a separate FFL, and there's a safe full of weapons that only he can return, how is there not another person on his FFL that can handle the return? What would happen if something were to happen to the smith in this case where he was not able to return the firearms in his care? There must be precedent for that.
 
Iā€™m up there frequently and Capps shop hasnā€™t been open in the last few weeks Iā€™ve been in there. I used him for work on one of my sbr uppers once. Told me a week, close to six months later I went and parked myself in his shop and sat and waited until he finished the job. Iā€™ll never deal with that again. I also had him build me a rifle around that same time frame and I was very mislead. Apparently sub moa means different things to him and I.
I hope you get your gun back and can put all this behind you. I totally understand the frustration.
 
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I used TSA once for an online purchase (TSA, not the gunsmith). They had it over a week before the paperwork was done and the right people were in place so I could pick it up, and that required multiple emails to Bill. I was an annual member at the time but I chose not to renew.
 
I saw Capp in TSA on 9/10 while I was there for the Glock Armorer class. He was not looking well honestly. He had his apron on and was wearing a mask but was moving slower than I recall him moving in the past. I only took note of if because we had to go in the back past his shop. Our Glock instructor was being asked to look at A Glock by another customer in the store and he was told the gunsmith messed it up. The Glock instructor just told him he couldnā€™t help him at that point
 
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OutLore said:
Seems to me that TSA just bought your gun at MSRP lol, all they have to do is write you a check.

If he is a separate FFL, and there's a safe full of weapons that only he can return, how is there not another person on his FFL that can handle the return? What would happen if something were to happen to the smith in this case where he was not able to return the firearms in his care? There must be precedent for that.
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Can have one person on the ffl. If he had no employees and had the ad record book then the op is in a tight spot. Would have to wait for a civil court to settle it.
 
Cpippen said:
I saw Capp in TSA on 9/10 while I was there for the Glock Armorer class. He was not looking well honestly. He had his apron on and was wearing a mask but was moving slower than I recall him moving in the past. I only took note of if because we had to go in the back past his shop. Our Glock instructor was being asked to look at A Glock by another customer in the store and he was told the gunsmith messed it up. The Glock instructor just told him he couldnā€™t help him at that point
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Like I said, if the man is sick and needs to take care of himself, he should do that. I'm NEVER going to get upset at someone taking time off for their health as I would not want someone upset with me if I had to do that.

What I'm upset about is the lack of communication. Obviously TSA / Bill knew what was going on and hasn't told anyone anything. Like I've been calling for a couple weeks and there's no answer at the gunsmith so I leave messages. That VM should redirect to someone who can answer questions.

At the end of the day, I don't really care if Kapp is a "business within the business", it's TSA's name on the door, its TSA's website that says "TSA Gunsmith". If you're going to brand an in house gunsmith, take ownership of the issues that arise and stop passing the buck.
 
I know Mr. Ogburn personally, perform stock and doublegun work for him, and he is a dear friend.
TSA and Mr. Ogburn are officially different businesses, housed together, sharing some resources, but not all. TSA does not provide him skilled help, or handle phones for him.
I would not ā€œbewareā€ of the quality of the work he does, but rather be ā€œawareā€ of the dynamics there.
Thereā€™s 250 guns back there to be fixed, the majority of which he has to fix by himself. He has no help other than an unpaid part-time assistants to clean guns, and occasionally answer the phone.
Bill asked me about the gun in question. I am not personally aware of it, but I am sure itā€™s back there, and I am sure Mr. Ogburn will be right back on it when he gets back from vacation. It is very true that he has experienced health issues, and I expect that will continue. He needed the rest. If he were to pass away, I expect that I may be involved in getting everyone their guns back.
To the OP, my practical suggestion is to be a little more patient, give grace. He will take care of it. To anyone else who needs the work he can do; if you can deal with the wait, his work is superb and he is an honorable and ethical man to have do it. If you canā€™t wait, go elsewhere. Heā€™s already overwhelmed and adding more to that wonā€™t help anyone.

Bill Graham
 
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I donā€™t think Iā€™ve shown anything but grace to Kapp. Iā€™ve said over and over I 100% am on board with him taking care of his health.

but Iā€™m 2 months with no gun and 1 month past when I was told Iā€™d be ready and have gotten zero communication about it until I reached out.

I place that on Bill not Kapp. And your explanation makes it even more clear Bill wants to have his cake and eat it too.
 
I do not disagree.
I am there frequently to offer Kapp help where I am qualified to, and will try to encourage him to focus on your gun. I will do what I can to help you, others, and my friend. However, I do not think that is needed, as Bill will bring your urgent matter to his attention, and Kapp will focus on it.
To everyone else, encourage young gunsmiths in their endeavors. I donā€™t mean those who are just focused on building grown-up LEGOā€™s, but also those who can machine parts, checker stocks, port barrels, provide an beautiful 11 degree target crown, build you a custom 1911, time a revolver, etc. The mature fellows who came before them are going to fade, and there are currently far too few who can replace them that have those kinds of skills. The number of guns many of these guys have to fix is not reasonable, and that is because there arenā€™t enough people doing that kind of work to keep up with demand.
 
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Iā€™ve told Bill I will give it until Oct 2 for my gun to be ready. Either way Iā€™m picking my gun up on Oct 2. Anyone know any good gunsmiths in Raleigh in case it doesnā€™t get finished ?

anyone used the guy at OnPoint?
 
mhuxtable said:
Iā€™ve told Bill I will give it until Oct 2 for my gun to be ready. Either way Iā€™m picking my gun up on Oct 2. Anyone know any good gunsmiths in Raleigh in case it doesnā€™t get finished ?

anyone used the guy at OnPoint?
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PM sent.
 
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