Would you do this if it happened in your church?

MacEntyre

Shoot on Sight!
2A Bourbon Hound OG
Charter Member
Benefactor
Life Member
Multi-Factor Enabled
Joined
Jan 3, 2017
Messages
9,767
Location
Trouble Ranch on Troublesome Creek
Rating - 100%
60   0   0
Combat Vet Who Stopped The Synagogue Shooter: ‘I Scared The Hell Out Of Him’


The man who fired a semi-automatic weapon inside the Chabad of Poway synagogue in San Diego on Saturday froze, dropped his gun and sprinted to his car when he saw Oscar Stewart come barreling toward him, yelling so loud the priest at a neighboring church could hear.

“Get down!” Stewart yelled, according to his wife and others who were at the scene. “I’m going to kill you!”

Others who were there later told him it sounded like four or five people were shouting. He thinks maybe an angel was standing behind him and speaking through his voice. When the shooter ran, he immediately gave chase.

...
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Sometimes the act of running at the shooter will get that reaction but there are just as many accounts of folks getting shot full of holes. It all depends on the level of earnest intensity in the shooter. It would be much better to have a plan beforehand that can stop a shooter than rely on heroics.
 
Last edited:
I suppose my church that has ~800 per service would be a good target. But there is a security team that I have heard is pretty serious about it. And even in Cary, a church as conservative as mine I would bet has at least 40 carrying in the 800 at the service (besides the security team). I know I am checking the doors and people coming and going just like I do everywhere else.

Probably not a soft target. A good bomb target but a terrible shooter target.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Combat Vet Who Stopped The Synagogue Shooter: ‘I Scared The Hell Out Of Him’


The man who fired a semi-automatic weapon inside the Chabad of Poway synagogue in San Diego on Saturday froze, dropped his gun and sprinted to his car when he saw Oscar Stewart come barreling toward him, yelling so loud the priest at a neighboring church could hear.

“Get down!” Stewart yelled, according to his wife and others who were at the scene. “You motherfucker! I’m going to kill you!”

Others who were there later told him it sounded like four or five people were shouting. He thinks maybe an angel was standing behind him and speaking through his voice. When the shooter ran, he immediately gave chase.

...
I have a good friend that, even without expressing it, his plan was something along those lines.
Retired from the Army and vet of a few campaigns, I have little doubt he would try it.

Sent from notthedroidyourelookingfor
 
I pray I or someone else would get a rapid CNS shot, and no one else would get hurt.
Our church is in downtown Raleigh, have a uniformed officer at the door, 10% are carrying, that we know of.
 
  • Like
Reactions: bkv
What's this?

He may not call himself a hero, but Stewart believes his actions effectively stopped the shooter. He doesn’t think reports of the shooter’s gun jamming as the reason he fled are likely to be true, because he was using a semi-automatic rifle. “Full automatic weapons will jam,” he said. “Semi-automatic weapons do not jam.” He thinks maybe the shooter had emptied his magazine. Whatever the case, the shooter let the slung weapon drop and fled
 
I was cussing so bad that ive said "hell yeah" after a hymn was sang. That was over a year ago and it was "power in the blood". We have lots of people that carry a gun and an active shooter plan.
 
Last edited:
The last church I attended regularly had a security team and more of us carried. The one I’m currently attending, I’m the only one that I know carries but I haven’t been there that long and I’m really not in the habit of letting others know that I’m carrying.
 
I suppose my church that has ~800 per service would be a good target. But there is a security team that I have heard is pretty serious about it. And even in Cary, a church as conservative as mine I would bet has at least 40 carrying in the 800 at the service (besides the security team). I know I am checking the doors and people coming and going just like I do everywhere else.

Probably not a soft target. A good bomb target but a terrible shooter target.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Your church has too large an attendance number too be able to do a facial recognition approach to a active shooter situation. Better get those carrying a weapon involved in the security circle, sure would not be a good day to shoot a good guy or get oneself lite up.
 
Last edited:
Kiai, it's a portion of martial arts that uses the voice. Command voice, etc. Yeah, it's effective. Never had to use it on anyone armed. But stopped several folks in their tracks at work that didn't need to be there doing it. Good for him. When it goes sideways like that folks have to act, act now, and act violently.

BTW, he's not the only hero there. The lady that was killed got shot when she threw herself in front of the Rabi to protect him.
 
If this happened in my church:

1. I carry in church, and I hope I would be of the frame of mind to shoot back.

2. If not, and one of our more “aggressive” souls used that language in the sanctuary...well...we could pray forgiveness and move on.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
The San Diego Union-Tribune reports that friends said the woman killed in the shooting at a Poway, California, synagogue was Lori Kaye, 60, of Poway.

The newspaper reports that witnesses said she jumped in front of the synagogue's founding rabbi, Yisroel Goldstein, who was wounded in the index fingers on both hands.

The Union-Tribune also says that others injured were Noya Dahan, 8, hit with shrapnel in the face and leg, and Almong Peretz, 34, who was shot in the leg as he ushered children in a playroom to safety.
 
A lot of synagogues face the realities of today and hire armed police to guard them, especially on high holidays. The synagogue in Greensboro has no less than 8 inside and outside.

Others, generally in very liberal areas, want to believe that they’re in a safe space.
 
The lady that was killed got shot when she threw herself in front of the Rabi to protect him.

The San Diego Union-Tribune reports that friends said the woman killed in the shooting at a Poway, California, synagogue was Lori Kaye, 60, of Poway.

The newspaper reports that witnesses said she jumped in front of the synagogue's founding rabbi, Yisroel Goldstein, who was wounded in the index fingers on both hands.

Guts.
 
Your church has too large an attendance number too be able to do a facial recognition approach to a active shooter situation. Better get those carrying a weapon involved in the security circle, sure would not be a good day to shoot a good guy or get oneself lite up.

Concealed is concealed.

If I were an usher or on the security team, sure. If it gets to the point of someone being confused that I am the active shooter, things are very sideways. I won’t be shooting unless I am nearby (large room), have a clear shot, and definite ID on a bad guy doing bad things. And then it will be over in a few seconds. One way or the other I will be on the floor or ducked down - either looking for more threats or incapacitated. Definitely not waving my gun around. Also, I rarely have family in the service with me to worry about getting out.

I have to rely on the security team and other concealed carriers to also be responsible in their target ID.

Even if all the regulars that carried had breakfast together every week, I couldn’t recognize them from behind, or across the room, or moving in a crowd. Just not going to happen. And there are probably a hundred visitors every week (just guessing).

The threat(s) will most likely be using long guns, and at or coming from the doors. Also, given the security we have, I think many of us would recognize the gunfire on their way in and be somewhat alerted.

If I were running security I would have someone with an SBR (or concealed braced pistol) in the raised (like 10 feet) and large sound/video area, as well as backstage, and in the baptistry also raised up 10’ to one side. It is actually a pretty defensible room if it comes to that.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
I am a safety team member at my church. We are asigned seating positions so there would be a slim chance of getting caught in a crossfire situation. It's the other people that carry that concerns us. If we were to have a situation, it scares me to think of people other than team members starting to shoot. Now I'm absolutly not against a man or woman protecting themselves/family, it's just scary to think of the chaos. I just pray it never happens.
 
A lot of synagogues face the realities of today and hire armed police to guard them, especially on high holidays. The synagogue in Greensboro has no less than 8 inside and outside.

Others, generally in very liberal areas, want to believe that they’re in a safe space.
Even St. Matt's here in charlotte had at least 6 uniformed officers at various places/roaming on Easter.
 
I thing it would be good, as part of a standard security procedure, everyone has been informed and knows, that in the event of an emergency, everyone should immediately get down. Think Entebbe.
 
Our main room is concrete floors covered by a little carpet, perfect for ricochet. Overpenetration in nearly any direction goes into a kids classroom. People running everywhere behind and around the shooter. It's going to be nearly impossible to stop him once he's in the big room unless you are right there beside him, and even then it puts others at risk. Maybe there are less lethal options, I'm open to suggestions.
 
Regarding the original post, I think once again I see the value of commanding the OODA loop. We've often called mass shooters "cowards", and this demonstrates how they don't expect any resistance, and when they get it, even from an unarmed opponent, they just fold and run. Same thing happened, I believe, with the Paris train attack that was stopped when three unarmed Americans confronted the shooter.

I think about the Orlando nightclub shooting, where it went on for nearly a half hour. How different it would have been if several men had rushed him. Some would have likely died, but it would have ended sooner with less tragedy vs. just sitting there waiting your turn to die. I hope it never happens to me, but I also hope if it does, that I will have the courage and wits to respond in a way that will change the outcome.
 
I am a safety team member at my church. We are asigned seating positions so there would be a slim chance of getting caught in a crossfire situation.
I would be concerned about someone panicking and unexpectedly jumping up and into the line of fire. Had that happen in a simulator once where I had a direct line on the active shooter. A sobering experience that I still remember.
 
Concealed is concealed.
If I were running security I would have someone with an SBR (or concealed braced pistol) in the raised (like 10 feet) and large sound/video area,
An 8” 300BLK with a LAW folder fits in a laptop bag. After the TX shooting I built one for this purpose.
F3F94DCD-B4AF-43D7-87E8-C8F729E591AF.jpeg
 
I think I would grab my wife on the way down to hit the deck. Every one of these church attacks freaks me out a little more about going to our current church where everyone has decided to just stick their head in the sand and pretend it couldnt happen here. They discussed hiring an off duty LEO and 1 is better than none but too much real estate to cover for 1 man. We've had break ins, street people issues, dumpster fires, graffiti and other problems. Had a homeless man breaking in nightly for a while only to discover half the electronic security measures in 2 different bldgs were not working despite the fact that our systems were supposed to be monitored for continuity at all times by a central station. Had the same thing happen at my gun club. Cautionary tale folks. You might not be getting what you are paying for. Test your systems regularly.
 
Know yer target and what's behind it... so, how ya gonna choot in a crowded place of worship?

That would be my point also mac. We have a security team in place and I believe that ONLY those people should shoot if a something should happen. I don't want some random yahoo shooting at me because I don't know anything about his/her shooting experience.We lock all doors at worship time and have someone is monitoring camera's placed in different places inside and outside our church.
 
Last edited:
yeah I've thought through the "chaos in a crowded room" scenario many ways and I just don't think it's a problem best solved with a handgun unless the BG presents you a stellar opportunity. Never say never, but there are a LOT of ways for you to do harm instead of good by attempting it. I think my best options in the worst case scenario are to exit quickly or die well. I could not live with being a passive witness to something like that. We always sit near an exit.
 
Know yer target and what's behind it... so, how ya gonna choot in a crowded place of worship?
You yourself should know there is more then one way to skin a cat.
You can keep those people getting killed calm by quoting the “rules” to them. I’ll just use that time to figure something out.
 
Our church is out in the boonies a bit, so I don't really worry much about the "politically motivated" types of shootings...but one church I pastored for a while did have a swastika spray painted on the door (turned out to be just a dumb kid). My main concern is local "crazies" that may hold a grudge against a member. We have one guy, who had relatives attend for a while. Guy has just generally slowly gone bonkers. I was friends with him on FB for a while, but there is only so much random weird stuff that one can read. His kids disliked him so much that as soon as they hit 18 they got married and moved out never to look back. Its folks like him that we both pray hard for, but also worry that one day they will just decide to "take it out on those Jesus people". Our church is only about 100 yards from his house.

Long story short, for those in large churches it is more of a challenge, but it is important to learn the people who attend your church. Not only is it good fellowship, but it helps in recognizing new faces, both for better and for worse.
 
For all the over penetration folks, know your target folks, etc do you have a viable solution? Not talking about shooting 30 yards across a crowded room. But would you take the shot or no? Is there acceptable friendly fire in a mass shooting attempt? Is a couple people hurt or killed by a friendly better than a dozen hurt or killed by a gunman? If the answer is no friendly fire is acceptable then just leave it in the car. In a situation like that you can't be stupid but you would have to act. And while you may end up with a good shot, I'm betting you never end up with a clean shot. This is as much a moral question as it is a legal one. And how you answer may well determine how effectively you would act in the situation. Or not.

If you are going to cary a gun you have to make tough mental decisions. And some of those decisions are neither clear cut or pretty. But a decision is leading you towards action. Making it up on the fly is not.
 
Back
Top Bottom