Tactical Application of Competition Shooting. Mike Pannone

I know a a lot of people don't agree with this point of view. Im in his camp. I thought shooting matches helped me tremendously when shooting with a team. I never did something stupid during "real training" due to me gaming on the weekends. Quicker reloads, faster on target from draw times….
 
My Son-in-law is an 18A at 5th group and he agrees with the guy in the video. His shooting skills have improved greatly since shooting competitions and so has his teams. I’ve shot with several guys that were 18’s and a few that were with cag. None of those guys like getting beat by an old fat guy but they really hate the smack talk that comes along with it.
 
I do not fully agree with his viewpoint, but I do believe shooting competitions like IDPA are beneficial. I believe matches improve gun handling skills under stress better than anything else. It will show the flaws in your technique. And if you can keep this in mind when competing, then fine. But, it's easy to get caught up in the gamesmanship. Some matches impose "tactics" in their format. It really depends on who's running the match. I used to love North Wilksboro. Their motto was, Shoot till you're happy. They didn't care if you deviated from the format if you wanted too. Of course it might cost you the stage, but you were free to do so. And I've been to matches that were so ridgid and gamey, I never went back. What I don't agree with is his comment about being able separate what he says is just a drill from "real" training. Well, most people don't get "real" training. This is as close as they get. I can easily see sporting techniques getting ingrained, especially if there is no other training to counter it. You will default to your training techniques, the ones you do over and over due to muscle memory. Yes, I think competing is good, IF you can maintain the consciousness that it's just a drill. But, unless you invest in "real" training, how do you know the difference?

Just sayin'
 
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georgel said:
I do not fully agree with his viewpoint, but I do believe shooting competitions like IDPA are beneficial. I believe matches improve gun handling skills under stress better than anything else. It will show the flaws in your technique. And if you can keep this in mind when competing, then fine. But, it's easy to get caught up in the gamesmanship. Some matches impose "tactics" in their format. It really depends on who's running the match. I used to love North Wilksboro. Their motto was, Shoot till you're happy. They didn't care if you deviated from the format if you wanted too. Of course it might cost you the stage, but you were free to do so. And I've been to matches that were so ridgid and gamey, I never went back. What I don't agree with is his comment about being able separate what he says is just a drill from "real" training. Well, most people don't get "real" training. This is as close as they get. I can easily see sporting techniques getting ingrained, especially if there is no other training to counter it. You will default to your training techniques, the ones you do over and over due to muscle memory. Yes, I think competing is good, IF you can maintain the consciousness that it's just a drill. But, unless you invest in "real" training, how do you know the difference?

Just sayin'
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I guess my question is, what do you consider “real” training? Is it training for self defense, close quarters small unit tactics, or large unit maneuver tactics? Would “real” training include insertion and extraction training, supply distribution, medical training, sanitation training or simply training to hide most of your body behind a wooden barrier?

It’s been 30 years since I wore a uniform and even then most of the training we did was tearing down an AN/TPS63 Radar unit and seeing how fast we could get it loaded into a C130. I deployed twice to areas where combat was likely and only one of those deployments resulted in combat. We trained for each of those deployments for 1 week prior and the training was different each time and was based on the specific mission requirements. Other than that, we went to the rifle range once a year for qualification and did small unit maneuver training once a month, if lucky. I’m sure the grunts trained more often and SMU’s even more than that. I guess the point I’m trying to get at was that when a situation arises where you may have to defend yourself or those around you, you will know the difference and you cannot train for every scenario. You train for the constants and you adapt to the changes. Just the opinion of an old fat air winger.
 
georgel said:
I do not fully agree with his viewpoint, but I do believe shooting competitions like IDPA are beneficial. I believe matches improve gun handling skills under stress better than anything else. It will show the flaws in your technique. And if you can keep this in mind when competing, then fine. But, it's easy to get caught up in the gamesmanship. Some matches impose "tactics" in their format. It really depends on who's running the match. I used to love North Wilksboro. Their motto was, Shoot till you're happy. They didn't care if you deviated from the format if you wanted too. Of course it might cost you the stage, but you were free to do so. And I've been to matches that were so ridgid and gamey, I never went back. What I don't agree with is his comment about being able separate what he says is just a drill from "real" training. Well, most people don't get "real" training. This is as close as they get. I can easily see sporting techniques getting ingrained, especially if there is no other training to counter it. You will default to your training techniques, the ones you do over and over due to muscle memory. Yes, I think competing is good, IF you can maintain the consciousness that it's just a drill. But, unless you invest in "real" training, how do you know the difference?

Just sayin'
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Where do you go the invest in “real” training?
What is it and where do you go?

Real curious about this.
 
FatboyFlash said:
None of those guys like getting beat by an old fat guy
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Had that happen here with the Fort Bragg Special Forces Team. These men travel and put on expos for civilians. I shot the draw and fire one round portion with them when they were here. We had about 100 people in all raising funds for the Special Forces Scholarship Fund.
After I shot, the Sgt Major turned to the crowd and said...This will conclude this portion of or excercise, we have just been handed our ass by Billy. While there was much laughter, I Quickly told the crowd...These men do this for Real, I'm just an old man playing games.
 
NKD said:
Where do you go the invest in “real” training?
What is it and where do you go?

Real curious about this.
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Speaking only for myself, I use to do some comps and enjoyed them for the most part. To me, the "real training" comes in the form of force on force, and even then depending on who runs the class, can be just like the comps kinda, in it can be crap or good. Force on force is the closest in my opinion you can get to the real thing, but it still has rules. Also, just like when I use to fight in grappling and mma tournaments, that's as close as you can get to real fighting, but it's still not "street fighting", as you still have rules. And as posted above, fof is just one aspect of "real training". As with anything, do what you think is best for you, and to hell with what anyone else thinks. Isn't it great, lol.

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When I first started shooting matches a few years ago someone pointed out to me that it’s a great way to learn about the strengths and weaknesses of your guns and gear. Boy were the right. Obviously you learn about how well you run your guns, gear, ammo, and YOU, under simulated stress.

I really was cluless about all the things that can and will go wrong due to human error and stress, ammo, gear and gun failures. Plus, watching 12-15 other shooters in a squad experience things that I might not have experienced yet.
 
Stick Man said:
Speaking only for myself, I use to do some comps and enjoyed them for the most part. To me, the "real training" comes in the form of force on force, and even then depending on who runs the class, can be just like the comps kinda, in it can be crap or good. Force on force is the closest in my opinion you can get to the real thing, but it still has rules. Also, just like when I use to fight in grappling and mma tournaments, that's as close as you can get to real fighting, but it's still not "street fighting", as you still have rules. And as posted above, fof is just one aspect of "real training". As with anything, do what you think is best for you, and to hell with what anyone else thinks. Isn't it great, lol.

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Cool. Good points. I think force on force is great and would like to try it.

Curiously, the bulk majority of people I see who “don’t do competition cuz it will get you killed” don’t do any force on force. They talk about “two way ranges” but never train with people shooting at them. For obvious reasons. So aside from FOF, I don’t see them doing anything that improves anything “in the real world”.
They put up paper targets on a range and dress up in lots of gear. They do “carbine classes” and the like. But I just haven’t seen anything they do that make bullets hit A zones any better.

I think your MMA analogy is about perfect. It’s not street fighting. But Conor Mcgreggor or John Jones is going to absolutely wipe the floor with just about any “street fighter”. Because they can also kick your balls into your throat or gouge eyes etc.
Seen many a boxer in a street fight. It always ends with a one two and a KO.

I see tons of top tier dudes at matches all over and they don’t seem to feel it’s goimg to hurt them. The opposite actually. Hence my interest in it. Just my conversational observations. No expert that’s for sure!
 
@NKD, I could add more, but I'm traveling in the mountains right now, and I keep getting spotty reception, lol. For sure, the Connors, Jones, etc. far have a better chance when a fight breaks out, as does a guy who trains in FOF and also competition, as he will definitely see strengths and weakness's like FG said above. My MMA analogy kinda follows along the Jiu Jitsu guys, who want to hit the ground as soon as they engage, which in a street fight is the last place I want to be. I made it to Blue in BJJ, and that was enough for me, but spent WAY more time doing Muay Thai, Jeet Kune Do, and Kali/Silat. I wanted the kick boxing for a great stand up and clinch game, also the eye gouges and nastiness of JKD, and the very nasty weapons training of the Philippines, and I had the ground game covered. Put all that together with guns and FOF, and it makes for a great training session, haha. Actually, all the fight training gels very well with gun training. Let's see if this post, lol.

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Stick Man said:
Speaking only for myself, I use to do some comps and enjoyed them for the most part. To me, the "real training" comes in the form of force on force, and even then depending on who runs the class, can be just like the comps kinda, in it can be crap or good. Force on force is the closest in my opinion you can get to the real thing, but it still has rules. Also, just like when I use to fight in grappling and mma tournaments, that's as close as you can get to real fighting, but it's still not "street fighting", as you still have rules. And as posted above, fof is just one aspect of "real training". As with anything, do what you think is best for you, and to hell with what anyone else thinks. Isn't it great, lol.

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We talked about force on force at Billy's last week, and I'm still interested in where I can get some training, and not having a lot of luck finding it. Any ideas?
Billy asked if I'm afraid to have hands put on me, and I said no, and he asked if I'm afraid of being pushed to the ground, and I said I hope not to break a hip, but no, not afraid. lol.
 
Millie said:
We talked about force on force at Billy's last week, and I'm still interested in where I can get some training, and not having a lot of luck finding it. Any ideas?
Billy asked if I'm afraid to have hands put on me, and I said no, and he asked if I'm afraid of being pushed to the ground, and I said I hope not to break a hip, but no, not afraid. lol.
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http://defensiveconceptsnc.com/course-schedule/
coupon code trainhard for 40% off before 06.17.19
 
Millie said:
We talked about force on force at Billy's last week, and I'm still interested in where I can get some training, and not having a lot of luck finding it. Any ideas?
Billy asked if I'm afraid to have hands put on me, and I said no, and he asked if I'm afraid of being pushed to the ground, and I said I hope not to break a hip, but no, not afraid. lol.
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I believe John Boyette does some FoF.
More answers to other posts later. On the road.

ETA - How do you tag someone to come to the thread?
 
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Millie said:
How come?
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Horrible instructors. One of them has been on a couple of the local forums and is widely considered to be one of the most egotistical, cops are better than everybody, I know everything, bragging about injuring those he detained, etc, etc, people you’ll ever encounter in the industry.

I wouldn’t go to another class they offered even if they were paying my way. In my situation, it seemed like a really good opportunity, right up until the class actually started. And after that, I figured out I wasn’t the only one that had similar experiences.

...but I’m sure there are some students that are perfectly satisfied. Can’t please everybody.
 
FatboyFlash said:
I guess my question is, what do you consider “real” training? Is it training for self defense, close quarters small unit tactics, or large unit maneuver tactics? Would “real” training include insertion and extraction training, supply distribution, medical training, sanitation training or simply training to hide most of your body behind a wooden barrier?

It’s been 30 years since I wore a uniform and even then most of the training we did was tearing down an AN/TPS63 Radar unit and seeing how fast we could get it loaded into a C130. I deployed twice to areas where combat was likely and only one of those deployments resulted in combat. We trained for each of those deployments for 1 week prior and the training was different each time and was based on the specific mission requirements. Other than that, we went to the rifle range once a year for qualification and did small unit maneuver training once a month, if lucky. I’m sure the grunts trained more often and SMU’s even more than that. I guess the point I’m trying to get at was that when a situation arises where you may have to defend yourself or those around you, you will know the difference and you cannot train for every scenario. You train for the constants and you adapt to the changes. Just the opinion of an old fat air winger.
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Disclaimer: This is not a personal comment on your abilities, but a general comment, for discussion.

I was using the term "real" training generically to refer to education in defensive shooting or combatives. This would be in contrast to contest shooting, that may or may not have sound tactics. IDPA was an attempt to move toward "real world" shooting as opposed to the highly competition driven IPSC and other shooting competitions. But, it has become somewhat "gamey" in its own right, depending on where you go. And I do think the people running the match make all the difference.

In a heart thumping, adrenaline pumping real life scenario, I would argue you will have trouble "knowing" the difference. You assume clarity of thought, as most do. But, thoughts won't be clear and fine motor skills difficult. You will default to your training repetitions and if your only "training" is shooting competitions, then that's what you're going to do.
I don't believe shooting competitions will get you killed. I think that's a cop out. But, I do believe you have have a foundation in "real" training to be able to know the differences. This is where Pannone is speaking from. But, not everyone has that additional background. For a small example, tactical mag changes. If I'm going to dump a mag with ammo still in it. I always retain it. Yes. I loose time and likely won't win the stage. But, in the real world, I'm not going to leave a mag with ammo in it on the ground. I might need that later. I keep my focus on my presonal goal, which is to win fights, not for points. I used to shoot competitions for exercise, fine tuning gun handling skills under stress. That's why I used to like Wilkesboro, They didn't care. We were all shooing for fun. Some places will sneer at you. Oh, you're one of those. But, that's me. If you're enjoying the competition aspects, then have at it. You just have to be even more diligent in recognizing the differences.
I'm not condeming competition shooting. I think it's a good thing. I actually recommend you should shoot conpetitions to add stress to your gun handling. You don't get this, by yourself at the range or practice going from leather, for that matter. You just have to be careful you don't ingrain habits that are sub-optimal in real shooting scenarios. For another small example, right after shooting the target, are you going to clear left and then automatically clear right only to suddenly realize, wait there WAS something on your left?

As I see it.
 
Stick Man said:
@NKD, I could add more, but I'm traveling in the mountains right now, and I keep getting spotty reception, lol. For sure, the Connors, Jones, etc. far have a better chance when a fight breaks out, as does a guy who trains in FOF and also competition, as he will definitely see strengths and weakness's like FG said above. My MMA analogy kinda follows along the Jiu Jitsu guys, who want to hit the ground as soon as they engage, which in a street fight is the last place I want to be. I made it to Blue in BJJ, and that was enough for me, but spent WAY more time doing Muay Thai, Jeet Kune Do, and Kali/Silat. I wanted the kick boxing for a great stand up and clinch game, also the eye gouges and nastiness of JKD, and the very nasty weapons training of the Philippines, and I had the ground game covered. Put all that together with guns and FOF, and it makes for a great training session, haha. Actually, all the fight training gels very well with gun training. Let's see if this post, lol.

Sent from my LM-Q710.FG using Tapatalk
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Well, just for the record:
If a fight breaks out I’m on Stick Mans side!
 
NKD said:
Well, just for the record:
If a fight breaks out I’m on Stick Mans side!
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Thanks man, but no one pays me much attention. At 5'-7", 155#s, people don't expect much, lol. And that's just the way I like it.

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