Hvac question

jmccracken1214

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the house we are buying, had a very old unit. The current home owner said she would have it replaced with a new heat pump. It did have base board heating.
I went and looked today, no brand on it but from googling the model # I see it’s a smartcomfort 2.5 ton.

My house is 2330sq ft. What I’m seeing is this house should have a 4ton unit ?

I sure hope we don’t have to turn around and replace the new unit with a proper sized one after we close.

9B03169C-F1C4-4977-8A59-6DD3103E98C2.jpeg
 
Agreed. I would not close on the sale until this is replaced.
 
I'm not qualified to have an opinion on the size of the unit. But, if you don't want to walk away from the deal, maybe you insist she install a properly-sized unit and negotiate to chip in a few bucks to upgrade it to a quality brand?
 
We close on this house in 6 days. She had someone she knows install it, and is paying him once we close.

The appraiser my lender used is old as hell, and appraised the house at almost the selling price, for some reason. All the comps are 30-40,000 more than our house.

This is not the damn crap I want to find out with less than a week before Im supposed to seal the deal.
 
The seller has been very nice and easy going with us. I don’t think she even knows. I don’t get the feeling from her that she would do this, I think her “friend” told her it was good to go and that’s all she needed.
I have emailed my realtor, my lender and the home owner letting them all know the situation.

She’s already begun moving her stuff out and I told her today she could use half the garage for 1 week max after closing to store stuff until she can get it gone, so I don’t see her NOT wanting to fix this issue, even though it may end up costing her more than she intended on. But I hope she crawls the AC guys ass. He should know better and if he doesn’t, he needs a new job
 
If you close in 6 days, seems your due diligence has run out no? Would you lose that plus the inspection, appraisal, etc? Could be a couple grand?
 
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First of all 2330 sqft with a 2.5 ton unit could be more than enough for a house with certain windows and great insulation. Square footage is only one factor in unit size. Yes, it’s a low end unit. The unit is manufactured by International Comfort Products. They use dozens of names on one cheap unit. Two thirds of the units sold are junk regardless of the name.

If the house had a previous unit then most counties do not require a load calculation be performed. News houses have that requirement. Houses with change of heating type should as well. Example: baseboard heat to heat pump. I would be more concerned about if a licensed contractor installed it. I would make sure a permit was pulled for the install. Go to the county GIS site under the owner or physical address to see the permits pulled on the house. I would also be more concerned about the ducting being engineered for the tonnage and airflow.

Also it’s important that enough electric heat has been installed to maintain a 60 temperature upon the heat pump failure at winter NC regional requirements. Also undersized heat strips during defrost cycles will drop the house temp and need to run longer to heat. And defrost cycles will trend more rapidly. Sooooo power bill goes up up up.

If you wanted a good heat pump you should have specified that. If you wanted a higher tonnage you should have specified that. If a permit wasn’t pulled you will have leverage to get anything your heart desires from the installer or he will be visiting Raleigh for a hearing.

It’s 94 degrees outside. Design temp is 93. Your test to see if it is adequate is one trip away. Go find out. I’d say tomorrow after 3:00pm until 7:00pm is perfect.
 
@jmccracken1214 I’m sure you saw my earlier post.

In her position, as the seller, I’d have installed the cheapest unit I could find but it would have been properly sized. That’s why I think she needs to pay for a properly sized system and you need to pay something to get a quality brand (with a 10 year warranty).
 
Can request $$$ be left in escrow until the system is verified and installer was qualified.
Need to verify the indoor coil was also replaced.
 
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What I would do is get one of those stellar Lowes Home Improvement contractors do the system. You know the guys who mark the unit up 10 more percent to give a 10 percent discount to the Lowes employees. Don’t forget the additional 30 percent Lowes makes letting them have exclusive rights to store leads. Man those $8000 systems of Lowes go for like $12,000. What a deal those bog box stores are. And don’t forget those 12 months no payments at high rates later. The best part is when you are late one payment and the new rate kicks in. Trick or treat sucka.
 
What I would do is get one of those stellar Lowes Home Improvement contractors do the system. You know the guys who mark the unit up 10 more percent to give a 10 percent discount to the Lowes employees. Don’t forget the additional 30 percent Lowes makes letting them have exclusive rights to store leads. Man those $8000 systems of Lowes go for like $12,000. What a deal those bog box stores are. And don’t forget those 12 months no payments at high rates later. The best part is when you are late one payment and the new rate kicks in. Trick or treat sucka.

You know he works for Lowe's right?
 
She is having the guy come back and replace the unit with a 4ton friday.

The unit does have a 10 year warranty as well.
Let’s see here. 4 tons at 400 CFMs per ton is 1600. Average of 90 to 95 CFM per flexible duct outlet, possible 100 on short runs. I’m assuming you have 16 floor or ceiling outlets for 4 tons and a great big ole return with a 20” round return.
When you force too much air across an evaporator coil in short durations you do not get the latent heat change which removes humidity from the air. All you get is a change in sensible heat. Ex: set thermostat to 72. Thermostat meets temp but only ran 3 minutes. Humidity could be 70% or greater. Now you feel wet sticky air.

Bigger is not better. Unless you ask a woman.
 
Ditto BlackGun's advice.

I cool a 5,300 sq ft shop with a 2.5 ton unit. However, my wall insulation is R60 and the attic is R90 so it works out.

Bigger is not better when it comes to air conditioners. Oversizing a system can lead to short cycling and higher humidity inside. The exception to this is if you install a high end system with a variable speed compressor.
 
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Keep in mind you have to register the unit online to get the 10 year warranty with most brands
I’m sure you are like me and see over half the units with no online warranty registration. Those looks of surprise by customers make me feel uncomfortable. I like these local Watsco companies who charge $75 to bring a part back for warranty. It really pisses me off they can be a distributor then demand $75 to process the warranty. That gets passed on to the customer.
 
Bigger is just as bad as smaller, big as stated cold but damp, small dry but hot. Just right and you are good to go.
 
Let’s see here. 4 tons at 400 CFMs per ton is 1600. Average of 90 to 95 CFM per flexible duct outlet, possible 100 on short runs. I’m assuming you have 16 floor or ceiling outlets for 4 tons and a great big ole return with a 20” round return.(Snip)
Next, let’s get him going on it being a mixed system. ;)

Kind of reminds me of my wife’s shop, the compressor / condenser is a small commercial 3 phase system (we chose 3p because it is available, it is more efficient, doesn’t require run caps, and lasts longer) and not matched to the air handler. It has a piston rather than TX valve too, and it looks like someone changed the piston from the original. I finally had a tech do a PM on it. It took a few minutes to generate proper superheat, but it was a cool dry day. In the end it was still spot on for an R 410 system.

Of course he liked Trane, but I think they put too many electronics in for the sake of electronics which equals expensive.
 
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Ditto BlackGun's advice.

I cool a 5,300 sq ft shop with a 2.5 ton unit. However, my wall insulation is R60 and the attic is R90 so it works out.

Bigger is not better when it comes to air conditioners. Oversizing a system can lead to short cycling and higher humidity inside. The exception to this is is you install a high end system with a variable speed compressor.
I made the bigger is better mistake when we built the house. :(
 
Looks like 4 ton is the right choice....

View attachment 136405
That diagram is like anything else you can put on the internet. It’s far, far from factual. The difference from a house built in the 1950s with old style single pane windows, no wall insulation, no floor insulation, and minimum attic insulation vs the International Building Codes of today. The only real sizing method is a calculation. You don’t need a 8 hour extensive calculation. Even a building envelope calculation is better than that chart. There is not a company in NC who would sit down for 8 hours and hand calculate hour house. He would go bankrupt in a year or would have to charge $1000 more and still find a way to beat the competitions price.

You want your house to smell like mold or old person ass then by all means oversize the unit. Mold growth in today’s tight housing requirements can be an issue. Humidity control is more important than even the temp control.
 
So now a 4 ton unit is too big?
Don’t watch this volleyball match of internet AC sizing for a house none of these guys have been to. Put the onus on her to have a qualified tech size it and install it—most importantly, prove to you that it was done as such.
 
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We close on this house in 6 days. She had someone she knows install it, and is paying him once we close.

The appraiser my lender used is old as hell, and appraised the house at almost the selling price, for some reason. All the comps are 30-40,000 more than our house.

This is not the damn crap I want to find out with less than a week before Im supposed to seal the deal.
Typically this is a safe bet for appraisers to get it close to the loan amount. They're not supposed to but it happens.
 
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They're not supposed to but it happens.
It’s one of the biggest “wink wink, nod nods” in any industry. I’m no real estate mover and shaker, by any means. But the 3-4 appraisals I’ve ever had done for loans/refi’s ALL have magically been damn near bull’s eye to the sale/refi amount.

Go ahead and try to tell me how ethical and professional the banking and real estate world is...
 
Have a family member who is a real estate agent, and two close friends who do it.
Yep, it's funny how appraisal always matches the asking price... Almost ALWAYS


Also, Ive enjoyed learning about AC units in this thread, thank you all.
 
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