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Why concealed carriers should shoot action pistol matches
- Thread starter Amp Mangum
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Ikarus1
Avtomat Krishna-kov
the 'art of the mag dump' only takes a few minutes to demonstrate.
and that's why no one should ever take a class or practice so they can say you're an untrained marksman assassin! so obvious.
Ikarus1
Avtomat Krishna-kov
class is required, practice is great and you can do that however you want. But registering for, paying for, and having recorded performance logs on matches can be used against you in a court easily.
Maybe not at this time, in NC but just watch.....
I think a lot of gamers go home and practice a lot. They think about what they are doing, think about their equipment, moving and how to do things efficiently. Your average shooter doesn't do any of this. I think for most shooters this is a lot of work. I think competitions show holes in your game and equipment and what is possible by those that take it seriously, but i also think this is more along the lines of anything you do. The more you practice the better you get. Most people don't want to practice. I don't think attending a monthly match gets you very far if you don't practice and think about it for the next match. Your progression is going to take a long long time.
If your defense was "I didn't mean to shoot him" or "it was an accident" or "the gun went off by itself" or what have you maybe, but if you are justified in using deadly force, being good at using it seems like an odd line to take for the DA. Of course there is the whole "he's a rambo just looking to go kill people!" thing, but again, I would want to see some evidence of that getting convictions a few times before I would worry about it. You can what-if things to death, I choose not to.
Or, they see what they don't like and stop.
Case and point, I got my dad to go with me to one of the old style H2O BUG matches. Carry guns, no reloads on the clock, no draw on the clock, no movement (I think), short 5 round max strings.. about as beginner friendly as you can get. Under just the pressure of the timer (and maybe fieldgrade watching?) dad went from 'poor' to 'abysmal'. He got flustered on just getting the safety off from a low ready, and his hits at 3-5 yards were... well not really hits on target. Rather than take me up on the 'let's practice up and do it again', he instead never went again and has no interest in any training or practice. I know for a fact he occasionally carries that same tiny gun with the safety he can't work under ideal conditions and can't hit crap with at under ideal conditions. So if he had to do something, would luck serve? Or would he just be adding random bullets to an already bad situation? He _knows_ he can't use it well.... but denial?
I see this A lot. Mostly with local LEs. They have come and shot and Never return. They don't want to have to do the work to get better and are embarrassed at their lack of ability.
As to the match shooting. Go.. you will certainly learn Something. I still contend, as long as you never shoot a "blind" match, you are leaving a whole lot of knowledge on the table. As long as you can walk through, see all the targets, plan your reloads, you are Not getting full advantage. These matches are almost non existent . I hope in January of this coming year we can treat all who want to see what a "blind match" can offer you, will be satisfied.
I have shot in these matches and what I have seen is that middle pack folks move up and down and top tier folks move down.
One stage will be built around the J frame and little .380 guns. All will be from concealment. No reloads necessary. Little movement. Time will be the "decider".
All above is contingent upon interest.
Some years back in Washington state, if I am remembering correctly, an open shooter in uspsa used his open gun in a defensive manner on his way to or from a match, I believe the DA or such, maybe the other sides family attorney, tried to use the matches against the defendant.
That's how the NYPD does it.
Did it work for the DA?
I would hope that the lawyer for the shooter would say that the practiced and proficient match shooter knows more than most people about not only how but also when to use his firearms in self defense since the "when" part is also a part of the matches, and that the shooting was almost certainly justified based on the shooter's experience and training.
Im thinking it didnt. I cant find it anymore. Cant remember which firearms forum had the discussions about it. AR15 or maybe BEnos or even Doodie Project. Its was 10 or so years ago.
I shoot with @Amp Mangum a lot. He can attest to matches being a humbling experience especially for self proclaimed "gun guys" but whenever @Amp Mangum runs a match it is never judgemental just a good time for all.
No body around here checks ID at matches. You can create your practiscore account as Bob Shootsalot if want. Imaginary problem solved.
Match shooting drove me to get better. Carrying, and shooting drills on weekends with some local vets didn't give me that drive.
Match shooting drove me to get better. Carrying, and shooting drills on weekends with some local vets didn't give me that drive.
But rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6.....
USPSA matches are generally about speed. and IDPA is technically more focused on defense situations but when it comes down to it they are both a game. They really let you focus on getting muscle memory for malfunctions and just being able to shoot in different ways.
Also what looks better, the person who has never fired their pistol in a stressful situation thus can't hit anything and hits bystanders or gets themselves killed by just missing with their snub nose 357 or the person that can handle the pressure and put shots accurately on target?
At a minimum, it's trigger time & manipulating the firearm. Helps to build 'muscle memory' & increase familiarity with the gun & a few matches a year is more practice/training than the vast majority of gun owners get.
I don't shoot near enough & haven't shot a match in years, but shooting 'just' rimfire steels type matches made me a better/more proficient shooter.
Not saying it's the end all/be all, but it beats just shooting paper plates at 10yds or less a couple times a year.
I don't shoot near enough & haven't shot a match in years, but shooting 'just' rimfire steels type matches made me a better/more proficient shooter.
Not saying it's the end all/be all, but it beats just shooting paper plates at 10yds or less a couple times a year.
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Ego is like shot anticipation, you have it until you don't. But until it's completely worked out, you suck.
Lol
Most people don't compete because their shooting skills, or lack thereof, will be on full display, along with timer and hits for everyone to see. Everyone will see that despite the 50 guns they own and internet expertise, they completely suck at shooting guns. There's no hiding your skill in competition. It's all out there for everyone to see.
Shooting against actual good shooters is humbling, and most people don't want to be humbled.
Shooting against actual good shooters is humbling, and most people don't want to be humbled.
I have no ego, then. I'm shooting to have fun, get better and be out with friends. My last shoot of six stages had scores of down zero to down 34! It shows me what I need to work on. I'm ok at close ranges, and pretty bad at longer shots. At age 65, this could be an eyesight issue.
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This is why i think the first experience people have should be in training classes. Basic pistol, Defensive pistol 1, EDC that kind of thing. A lot of guys have these huge ego's and think the mere fact that they own and have possessed a firearm for a length of time somehow equates to competency. They have these scenarios in their head where they are the hero and react well to stress. Many of us know this is complete horseshit. I can shoot good, but sometimes just the timer and 12 dudes watching will make me fumble something simple. It happens. That is why i like an all day class where you can start someone out and build upon skills. There is so much to learn, right? If you take someone and put them in with guys who are high speed and they are slow and fumbling like the noob they are, they will either A. Get excited and want to emulate what they see and are self motivated or B. Dismiss it all, go through the motions and never return. I have seen both of these individuals in class and many different flavors of those two.
I haven't shot any competitions except at training classes. I want to though. Maybe ill practice more once i get spanked.
I know how to ride a bike, but I don't own 20 bikes, talk about bikes all day, give people advice on bike riding and which bikes to buy and how awesome they are, collect bikes (including spendy competition bikes), have biking clothing, hang out on biking forums all day, etc, all while saying things like "bike racing doesn't help you ride bikes in the REAL world".
But yes you are correct: some people just don't want to do it and have other interests, or they are into other stuff like hunting. That's great.
Pretty much exactly why I shoot. I'm losing my eyesight too!
A few points:
The concept of "If I shoot matches/take training classes a DA will say I am practiced and trained as a killer" is a very weak argument for any DA to attempt, in fact, I would >hope< they try that angle because any defense attorney who managed to sleep through the bar would just contend that Police also go to training often in order to become proficient, safer, and more skilled. So, as a responsible firearm owner it was prudent to do the same thing to make sure I was as safe as possible having a firearm legally in public. The argument also reminds me of the screeching people make of customizing their firearms in fear of a DA using it against them. When asked to cite a specific case in which an altered firearm was successfully used by the prosecution to turn a righteous shoot into a conviction draws only a chorus of "yeah but what ifs!" with no actual legal precedent.
Personally, I find the most important reason for people who carry a firearm to get out and shoot a match is to show them how much movement affects their accuracy. When I got into shooting I thought myself a marksman when I could stand and cut the centers out of targets at 7 yards. Then, I went to a match and was baffled when I was magically unable to keep that same group. Moving, being under stress, targets at odd angles and heights, all of that is something that is difficult if not impossible to practice just standing at a range with static targets. It shows that "gee, I am not nearly as awesome as I thought..."
Also reminds me of the first time I shot a three gun match. They had falling steel for the shotgun portion, targets probably 5-10 yards away at most...and I missed some...I was baffled..."How can I miss that big ol target with a shotgun! These are supposed to be room sweepers!" Nope...a shotgun, even with birdshot, at that range was like shooting softballs sized patterns. I learned quick that shotgun "marksmanship" is a real thing.
I also think most people don't shoot competitions for the same reason Me. above mentioned...they just don't feel like it.
The concept of "If I shoot matches/take training classes a DA will say I am practiced and trained as a killer" is a very weak argument for any DA to attempt, in fact, I would >hope< they try that angle because any defense attorney who managed to sleep through the bar would just contend that Police also go to training often in order to become proficient, safer, and more skilled. So, as a responsible firearm owner it was prudent to do the same thing to make sure I was as safe as possible having a firearm legally in public. The argument also reminds me of the screeching people make of customizing their firearms in fear of a DA using it against them. When asked to cite a specific case in which an altered firearm was successfully used by the prosecution to turn a righteous shoot into a conviction draws only a chorus of "yeah but what ifs!" with no actual legal precedent.
Personally, I find the most important reason for people who carry a firearm to get out and shoot a match is to show them how much movement affects their accuracy. When I got into shooting I thought myself a marksman when I could stand and cut the centers out of targets at 7 yards. Then, I went to a match and was baffled when I was magically unable to keep that same group. Moving, being under stress, targets at odd angles and heights, all of that is something that is difficult if not impossible to practice just standing at a range with static targets. It shows that "gee, I am not nearly as awesome as I thought..."
Also reminds me of the first time I shot a three gun match. They had falling steel for the shotgun portion, targets probably 5-10 yards away at most...and I missed some...I was baffled..."How can I miss that big ol target with a shotgun! These are supposed to be room sweepers!" Nope...a shotgun, even with birdshot, at that range was like shooting softballs sized patterns. I learned quick that shotgun "marksmanship" is a real thing.
I also think most people don't shoot competitions for the same reason Me. above mentioned...they just don't feel like it.
Exactly. Even Mas Ayoob, perhaps the King of the “modified guns will send you to jail” myth supports training and competition.
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Happy to be here
Quote: "
Most people don't compete because their shooting skills, or lack thereof, will be on full display, along with timer and hits for everyone to see. Everyone will see that despite the 50 guns they own and internet expertise, they completely suck at shooting guns. There's no hiding your skill in competition. It's all out there for everyone to see.
Shooting against actual good shooters is humbling, and most people don't want to be humbled."
I will never forget the first time I heard a guy tell me that he brought a friend, who is an LEO, to a match. The guy never came back because everyone outshot him. I said, 'You've got to be kidding me! That would make me keep coming back to get better!'
Most people don't compete because their shooting skills, or lack thereof, will be on full display, along with timer and hits for everyone to see. Everyone will see that despite the 50 guns they own and internet expertise, they completely suck at shooting guns. There's no hiding your skill in competition. It's all out there for everyone to see.
Shooting against actual good shooters is humbling, and most people don't want to be humbled."
I will never forget the first time I heard a guy tell me that he brought a friend, who is an LEO, to a match. The guy never came back because everyone outshot him. I said, 'You've got to be kidding me! That would make me keep coming back to get better!'
Shooting my first match showed me how much I sucked. Any match or training will help expose the holes in your skills and what gear may or may not work.
If it hadn’t been for competition, I would have never known that I suck with slim guns under stress. If it hadn’t been for an indoor match, I would have never known my sights setup are impossible to pick up indoors. And I’ve changed what I carry because of it.
Just shooting static at the range is like only taking free throws in basketball practice. You can get really good at that but you’ll still suck at shooting a jump shot with a man in your face when the pressure is on and your team needs you. Shooting matches and training is like a good scrimmage; it’s not the real game but it may be the closest you’ll get until the it happens and you’ll be better prepared for it.
If it hadn’t been for competition, I would have never known that I suck with slim guns under stress. If it hadn’t been for an indoor match, I would have never known my sights setup are impossible to pick up indoors. And I’ve changed what I carry because of it.
Just shooting static at the range is like only taking free throws in basketball practice. You can get really good at that but you’ll still suck at shooting a jump shot with a man in your face when the pressure is on and your team needs you. Shooting matches and training is like a good scrimmage; it’s not the real game but it may be the closest you’ll get until the it happens and you’ll be better prepared for it.
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I remember the first time i had to shoot and move, it put a weakness I didn't know I had on glaring display. That was alot of years ago .
Took my brother to a idpa match he did ok on the paper but one stage with a six plate steel rack humbled him, thirty rounds fired and he couldn't clear the rack, I've invited him back many time but it's always a no
Took my brother to a idpa match he did ok on the paper but one stage with a six plate steel rack humbled him, thirty rounds fired and he couldn't clear the rack, I've invited him back many time but it's always a no
FatboyFlash
Senior Member
This was pretty much my first experience as well. My first stage had 5) 6” steel plates that were the first targets. They were sitting at about 10 yards and it took me 20 rounds to clear those 5 targets. My 2nd Stage had a Texas star which I cleared with with 5 shots, the rest of the stage I had 4 mikes. Even after 4 years I still suck but I don’t suck as bad.
Heck, I remember when you took me to a match that had that stupid devilish Texas star thing. Not only did I shoot it in the wrong order, I missed what I was shooting at anyway. It was humbling. And I will be back...aint skeered...just aint got no times.
I remember our first match well. We were both terrified and missed everything but the no shoots!
Hard to believe it was that long ago dude...
'Dre out.
john galt
Well-Known Member
matches are all fun and games. Shoot what you rely on, leave the race guns etc to the guys who need to buy a Corvette or Porsche late in life and dry firing will get you hurt. get out and shoot more.
Competitions for me are to learn from the other shooters, all of whom are better than I am....how can I not learn something every time I do a match? It's humbling, sure, but to get to watch these people and learn...what more can I hope for? LOL. I'm happy to watch you guys/girls and have some fun, too.
I just recently (last month) got into shooting competitions. While it is only a steel challenge type match, I've learned a lot about my (in)abilities. My first match was just a feeler for me, and I fell in love. The second match, I had set a personal goal that a accomplished. I go into every match trying to be better than I was at the previous match. If I'm not, I try to figure out why and correct it. Shooting these matches has also boosted my confidence while carrying. Once I get where I want to be with the steel challenge matches, I plan to move to USPSA or IDPA type matches for even more improvement.
