147 gr HST + 6.9 gr 3N38 + 1.14" COAL = 1050 FPS?!

Sleazy P. Martini

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I've finally got my Dillon churning out reloads after it sat idle for about 3 years. For my first load, I'm using 147 gr HSTs and 6.9 gr 3N38. This should get me roughly 1200 FPS.

My first cartridges were loaded a big long (1.16") and we're hitting around 1050 FPS. Way low for the load but figured it was related to COAL.

I went home and made another batch with the COAL of 1.144" (book states 1.142" but HST is 0.02" longer than the book's XTP). These gave me the same velcoties (~1050 FPS) as the original batch.

I figured I screwed something up, so I made a third batch and was very careful with powder and COAL. Once again, I got 1050 FPS. I actually mixed my reloads in with some Federal 115 gr plinking loads and could barely tell a difference between the two.

List of things I've checked:
  1. Chrony. It's reading correctly as my Federal plinking rounds were reported as near 1125 FPS.
  2. Scale. At first I assumed the scale was to blame. I checked a few things and was able to confirm it is reading correctly.
  3. Projectiles. Checked to make sure my HSTs are actually 147 gr.

List of things I need to check:
  1. Crimp. I'm using a relatively light crimp that allows the rounds to pass a case gauge. Does crimp play a large role in hitting velocities? Should I increase my crimp?
  2. Powder. I have several pounds of 3N38. I believe they're all from the same lot. They're all about 2 years old and haven't been opened previously. Either way, I can try opening up another bottle and see if that gives me the same result.
Needless to say, I'm a bit bummed about having my hand cannon loads being comparable to 115 gr plinking ammo. I have no idea how I'm getting below min velocities with a max load. I appreciate any insight or suggestions.
 
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check your barrel length vs the test barrel length.
check do you need a magnum primer to ignite this powder?
9mm is not a crimped cartridge so crimp plays no role at all. Increasing your crimp can only ruin your projectile.
Your brass, powder lot, primers, chamber, bore, rifling and barrel length are likely all different from the test apparatus. If your V is consistent you likely don't have a problem with powder, primers or neck tension. It just is what it is in your gun.
 
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check your barrel length vs the test barrel length.
check do you need a magnum primer to ignite this powder?
9mm is not a crimped cartridge so crimp plays no role at all. Increasing your crimp can only ruin your projectile.
Your brass, powder lot, primers, chamber, bore, rifling and barrel length are likely all different from the test apparatus. If your V is consistent you likely don't have a problem with powder, primers or neck tension. It just is what it is in your gun.
Good point - my barrel is 4" (Glock 19) and test barrel is 4".
 
Is there any evidence of un-burnt powder?


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I saw some data online of a guy shooting 147gr JHP (type not specified) and 7.1gr has him just nudging 1100fps at 1.142”

With a G17 and 6.9gr 3N38 and 147gr XTPs, he was around 1108fps at 1.142”

With 4” barrels that’s likely leaving some unburnt powder

Is the book load giving that listed velocity with XTPs and that powder charge? Does it specify the host? If I missed that I apologize

Also what primers are you using?
 
3n38 is really fast rifle powder or really slow pistol powder...depending on how you look at it.
You need a longer barrel to take advantage of the slow burn rate.
I'll trade you for Titegroup.
 
I saw some data online of a guy shooting 147gr JHP (type not specified) and 7.1gr has him just nudging 1100fps at 1.142”

With a G17 and 6.9gr 3N38 and 147gr XTPs, he was around 1108fps at 1.142”

With 4” barrels that’s likely leaving some unburnt powder

Is the book load giving that listed velocity with XTPs and that powder charge? Does it specify the host? If I missed that I apologize

Also what primers are you using?
Load info is from here: https://www.vihtavuori.com/reloading-data/handgun-reloading/?cartridge=89

They're using a 4" barrel. I'm using CCI 500s and their load calls for "small pistol" primers, so not using magnums.

Seems like all of the threads I've seen on 3N38 report high velocities (high enough to freak people out enough to post threads).

For what it's worth, I do remember one of the rounds claimed 1150 FPS and had a bit more recoil than the others. I think the potential is there, so maybe I'll bump it up a tenth of a grain or two and see what happens. :confused:
 
check your barrel length vs the test barrel length.
check do you need a magnum primer to ignite this powder?
9mm is not a crimped cartridge so crimp plays no role at all. Increasing your crimp can only ruin your projectile.
Your brass, powder lot, primers, chamber, bore, rifling and barrel length are likely all different from the test apparatus. If your V is consistent you likely don't have a problem with powder, primers or neck tension. It just is what it is in your gun.
Catfish,
Still shooting that pristine Ruger 44 Mag with the quick draw holster that you got from me?

One comment on your statement about crimping.... not trying to be a smart @$$, but....

https://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=395875

Technically, a 9mm must have some sort of crimping. Now, I am not an expert, but the difference in what you said may be semantics. Most 9mm die sets, I think, come with a “tapered” crimping (combined with bullet seating or depth plug).

I learned a lot about how dumb I was on crimping a 9mm and posted that recently. But the main thing that jumped out at me....and it never hit me....and I could be wrong....is that the Lyman factory crimping die that many folks use when they don’t properly set up a tapered crimping die IS a Roll Crimp....which I would think would be “worse” for velocity reduction.

That’s my take.

As to the real subject of Velocity. I don’t have a chrono, so I have to take the reloading charts and do comparisons and such. I do shoot lighter loads...and am now, at the recommendation of a master BE shooter, migrating to VV N-series powders.

Look at the 147 velocities for N-330. I would have thought that the Heavy Cu plated bullet would have been going faster with more powder.... Max Loads for a 147 gr using N-330 are as follows

Hornaday XTP FMJ HP 4.3. Gr &. 1032 FPS
Extreme RN Heavy Cu Pl. 4.4 Gr. &. 1010 FPS

I don’t quite understand that. Can someone help me out on that?

Thanks
 
Technically, a 9mm must have some sort of crimping

I'm going to go ahead and disagree with you there. And it might be because we're playing word games. "crimp" has two meanings.

1) verb: To use a device called a crimp die to manipulate your cartridge in some way
2) noun: The tapered or rolled bit of brass at the mouth of the case that has a visibly reduced diameter w.r.t the body of the case.

9mm gets crimped (verb) to remove the flare/bell but does not get a crimp (noun) or you might have ruined your cartridge. 9mm headspaces on the case mouth. If you press that mouth into the side of the bullet your cartridge isn't going to chamber properly.

like this:

400px-9x19mm_Parabellum.svg.png


ETA: and yes the old girl is still shooting straight. It's a favorite when I bring friends to the range too.
 
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I'm going to go ahead and disagree with you there. And it might be because we're playing word games. "crimp" has two meanings.

1) verb: To use a device called a crimp die to manipulate your cartridge in some way
2) noun: The tapered or rolled bit of brass at the mouth of the case that has a visibly reduced diameter w.r.t the body of the case.

9mm gets crimped (verb) to remove the flare/bell but does not get a crimp (noun) or you might have ruined your cartridge. 9mm headspaces on the case mouth. If you press that mouth into the side of the bullet your cartridge isn't going to chamber properly.

like this:

400px-9x19mm_Parabellum.svg.png


ETA: and yes the old girl is still shooting straight. It's a favorite when I bring friends to the range too.

We do agree....just semantics. The case does head space as you say. The problems that folks have experienced and I see them a lot when I am on Range Safety Officer duty and they are complaining or fritzing around with a stuck shell or such is always 9mm. Many of the other members will come over and the typical response is ....get s Lyman factory crimped and do an extra step....and then 100% plunk test or use a case gauge.

That is, I thought, a pure rolled crimp. I have one buddy that actually reams, very slightly, his 45 cases and let’s the tension or the almost interference fit of the bullet seating to be his “crimp”. He backs the seat/crimp die so the taper is not engaged and then just seats them. Has no feeding problems....which a 1911 should really never have with a good magazine. Just bangs away. Now, he does set up a reamer of a lathe and just kisses the cases....

Tell me your theory on the N-330 velocity of the two bullets....

Thanks
 
Tell me your theory on the N-330 velocity of the two bullets....
Sorry man I don't have any insight there. I bought a chrono a while back because counter-intuitive things like that just seem to be part of the voodoo of reloading.
 
Mike and I are loading 7.2 for a steady 1,200 out of a 5inch gun. NOT SAYING for Anybody to try that. That's what we did and what we got. My guns are loaded fully of them now. 147 FMJFP at 1,200 FPS.
 
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Mike and I are loading 7.2 for a steady 1,200 out of a 5inch gun. NOT SAYING for Anybody to try that. That's what we did and what we got. My guns are loaded fully of them now. 147 FMJFP at 1,200 FPS.
You guys try 7.2 igr in any shorter barrels? I'd be more than happy with 1150 if I could hit that.
 
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Bumped it up to 7.2 gr and got some velocities. Don't have exact average, but must've been around 1070. I figure this is a good load for the rest of the pound. Hopefully the next pound I open wasn't made on a Friday afternoon. :rolleyes:

Best part of the afternoon:
xh7UJ4Hr.jpg
 
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Any opinions on CCI vs. Win small pistol primers? I'm LOW and need to restock.
I've had a few no-bangs with CCI in my 9mm G34.
 
I emailed VV and one thing they mentioned with respect to velocity is that they saw up to a 25% difference between different manufacturers. Personally I've been using CCI 500s. I'll likely try something else when I have to restock (more to chase velocity than due to reliability).
 
Any opinions on CCI vs. Win small pistol primers? I'm LOW and need to restock.
I've had a few no-bangs with CCI in my 9mm G34.

The Bullseye shooter like Federal. The CCI "supposedly" is a bit harder or more prone to FTF strikes. I have heard (range talk, don't cha know?) about WW. The "range store" sells WW and other brands (depends on who they buy from) and the Federal go fast. The Federal supposedly seats "easier" if you are using a progressive.

I have shot CCI over the years without a misfire. Try using a needle oiler and working on the Glock. I had a STRANGE thing happen. Somehow a minute piece of brass blocked the firing pin hole on a Springfield Armory 1911 Range Officer 9mm. It would NOT fire. The small piece of brass actually cushioned the firing pin inertia.

I had 2 glocks (17 & 34) and put about 1500 down the pipe, collectively. Never a misfire. NOW I was using up my old stock of Magnum CCI, but they were old as the hills and never an issue.
 
The Bullseye shooter like Federal. The CCI "supposedly" is a bit harder or more prone to FTF strikes. I have heard (range talk, don't cha know?) about WW. The "range store" sells WW and other brands (depends on who they buy from) and the Federal go fast. The Federal supposedly seats "easier" if you are using a progressive.

I have shot CCI over the years without a misfire. Try using a needle oiler and working on the Glock. I had a STRANGE thing happen. Somehow a minute piece of brass blocked the firing pin hole on a Springfield Armory 1911 Range Officer 9mm. It would NOT fire. The small piece of brass actually cushioned the firing pin inertia.

I had 2 glocks (17 & 34) and put about 1500 down the pipe, collectively. Never a misfire. NOW I was using up my old stock of Magnum CCI, but they were old as the hills and never an issue.
Ive been using the CCI and have been pleased. Out of this box of 1K around 400-500 of them fed my G23 without a hitch, I bought a used G34 with a 3.3lb trigger and I think the striker spring's weaker. I'm getting FTF light primer strikes about one every two mags. From what I read the CCI's are one of the hardest, Federal's are the softest & Win's are in between.
I think I'll try the Winchester this time.
 
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