Bill of Sale... Really?

B00ger said:
Yup...remember in Red Dawn, the first thing the commies asked for was the paperwork for gun sales. All this "proof" people are demanding can possibly assist you, but it can also possibly harm you in a serious way.
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I have a friend that moved here to Lewisville so maybe he’s your neighbor, from CA. He went nuts and bought a bunch of guns. His sister, who works for a secret squirrel agency got called on the carpet and asked why her brother would buy all those guns and what is he planning.
 
noway2 said:
I have a friend that moved here to Lewisville so maybe he’s your neighbor, from CA. He went nuts and bought a bunch of guns. His sister, who works for a secret squirrel agency got called on the carpet and asked why her brother would buy all those guns and what is he planning.
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Planning? Planning to live free.
 
noway2 said:
I have a friend that moved here to Lewisville so maybe he’s your neighbor, from CA. He went nuts and bought a bunch of guns. His sister, who works for a secret squirrel agency got called on the carpet and asked why her brother would buy all those guns and what is he planning.
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If she didn't mention it to them (her employer), I'd like to know how they found out that information.
 
wsfiredude said:
If she didn't mention it to them (her employer), I'd like to know how they found out that information.
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That was his point, because he didn’t. They aren’t supposed to know this sort of thing, but not only do they, but it attracted attention and concern. At least that is what he swears by.
 
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B00ger said:
Yup...remember in Red Dawn, the first thing the commies asked for was the paperwork for gun sales. All this "proof" people are demanding can possibly assist you, but it can also possibly harm you in a serious way.
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Government doesn’t need a Registry if we do it among ourselves. The people who do these records will gladly turn these over when asked.
 
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wsfiredude said:
If she didn't mention it to them (her employer), I'd like to know how they found out that information.
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noway2 said:
That was his point, because he didn’t. They aren’t supposed to know this sort of thing, but not only do they, but it attracted attention and concern. At least that is what he swears by.
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Majicmike said:
Government doesn’t need a Registry if we do it among ourselves. The people who do these records will gladly turn these over when asked.
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People, as smart as you all are you must Know that Elements of Big Bro have been ( at least ) Listening to phone calls for Decades. When Ed came out years ago to disclose what spying was going on it was really OLD NEWS because what he disclosed had already been Openly reported on by news organizations for many, many years, or decades.

SO, who knows what? At all levels except the very Top of government do not directly readily know who has what. One indirect way for lower levels of government to snoop, spy(?), etc is because all financial transactions are recorded, period.
When individuals employed in semi-sensitive or sensitive positions, others that may interact with said individual~s are likely monitored and or tracked for unusual activities and this is not difficult to do as the info is already being recorded it just has to be called up and viewed / reviewed by a person in gov or employed by gov to check it out, verify the info.

How many have gotten firearms through "Mail Order?" Well Many FFLs that mail order will run a BC 1st ( for obvious reasons ) and when you receive it your info is run again, so there's two places that have your info, possibility 3 (NICS).

Then, as a whole people JUST Give their info out with no problem. Yes, Face Book, Smart phones, etc, etc.
Hell, even here on this forum, including "Private Messaging."


The power of distraction:
A border patrol agent stopped a man on a bicycle with 2 bags in a basket. He asked the man "What is in the bags?" The man replied "Sand." After searching the bags the border patrol agent found nothing but sand. The next day the same border patrol agent stopped the same man on a bicycle with 2 bags of sand. The border patrol agent again asked the man "What is in the bags?" The man again replied "Sand." After searching the bags again he found nothing but sand. This went on for weeks. The same man on a bicycle with 2 bags of sand comes through his border. The border patrol agent finally asks the man: "Look, you come here every day on a bicycle with 2 bags, I search the bags and find nothing but sand. Now, I'm taking off my badge, I'm just a common man just like you. But I have to know "'What is it that you are smuggling into my country?'" The man replied "OK I will tell you what I'm smuggling into your country. I'm smuggling bicycles."


So, the power of distraction, so what,,?

All the social media platforms have some sort of "Privacy Policy " right? Overall it doesn't mean Squat.
Why?

How many times has FB been called on the carpet for violating peoples Rights? Well every time they are called to answer and be held accountable there's some Sob Theater that the Spying was an oversight and they won't do it again, etc, etc, etc.
And they all keep doing it, period.
They keep doing it with our information, period. Bottom line, how much of the personal info ends up on a gov server or is readily made available to Big Bro or Elements of Big Bro?
The following question should not have to be raised, BUT, if a New Social Media company started and freely told it's potential customers that they are in fact a Government Organization and All Your Personal Info will be kept confidential how many would that platform? I think some would, many would not.

Oh, the distraction example above? The Sand is asking for Forgiveness ( over and over ) when in fact The Masters keep stealing our info, period.

Concerning some notorious group~s Raiding a FFL's 4473 files? Yah, yes transactions are on paper, but decades ago that may have been a primary & positive way to ID owners, however any more I believe it would be a Local Jurisdiction that issues, lets say for NC, Pistol Permits.
States in The Northeast Corridor are worse because they ( State Gov ) want to know much more. My point is primarily to ID gun owners, not specifically what is owned because that changes all the time.

For those of you that believe Gov follows the Constitution you may want to research " Abramski v. US." It involves a piece of paper (Not a BOS) that was discovered ~ obtained through false pretenses.

Then there's this,,, Oh, BTW substitute the main object for about anything





SO Sisters & Brothers In Arms, don't get Too Excited about believing you had it all figured out because when Big Bro records all money transactions, listens in on ph conversations ( and more), can park a camera at 20,000 feet and determine if you have firearms and how many Long Guns you have ( short guns 60/40 ) I think we would Hope that Good Elements in gov are behaving themselves.



FWIW
 
@SPM I'll be sure to reach out to ya when I buy my next MG so you can structure the deal cuz it sure seems like you have this stuff figured out.
 
Clicker said:
@SPM I'll be sure to reach out to ya when I buy my next MG so you can structure the deal cuz it sure seems like you have this stuff figured out.
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Clicker said:
@SPM I'll be sure to reach out to ya when I buy my next MG so you can structure the deal cuz it sure seems like you have this stuff figured out.
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Just out of curiosity - do you support repealed of the Hughes Amendment?
 
Just posting to ensure that everyone realizes that I have avoided posting on this topic, this is a first for me since joining the predecessors to this site. As most probably know, I don’t care so much about the proliferation of personal data or the possibility of the data being aggregated by the government, but ratherI am disappointed at how people are so obviously afraid and concurrently so utterly mistaken about how to actually mitigate their fear vs just making themselves feel better. To be clear, a bill of sale for a firearm is exactly as likely to help you in an interaction with law enforcement as a gun buster sign is to stop a mass shooting.

Since I’ve obviously fallen off the wagon, @Clicker please allow me to pick on you. Please tell me what you are concerned might happen if you sell a gun to a person? Lets go so far as to say that you saw the person’s ID, confirmed his age and residency and asked if he was a convicted felon or otherwise prohibited and he said that he is not prohibited...but he lied! In fact he has been convicted of 5 violent felonies and is currently out on bond waiting for his trial for killing a family of four. As if that’s not bad enough, the ID you saw was fake, he’s really a resident of NY state. Within hours of buying your gun he is arrested in NYC for murdering 2 people that were witnesses to his murder of four people, the police recover the gun he used that yo sold him and he tells them that he bought it from a guy on the internet called clicker and he gives them a picture he took of your license plate as you were driving away from your meeting with him.

What bad thing do you think happens to you, and how does having a piece of paper with your wall of text make that bad thing either not happen or be more easily resolved?
 
JimB said:
What bad thing do you think happens to you, and how does having a piece of paper with your wall of text make that bad thing either not happen or be more easily resolved?
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Well said. Just as yelling “police” doesn’t make home invaders so, criminals could easily make a fake bill of sale to try to cover their butts.
 
I'm thinking more along the lines of you sold the gun legally to someone. A week after the sale that someone breaks into a house, kills a bunch of bunch of people and ditches the gun. PD recovers the gun, runs the numbers and I'm the guy the numbers come back to because I bought the gun at a dealer. Now Im having to prove I didn't do the crime as opposed to them having to prove I did. I would hope a piece of paper saying who and more importantly when I no longer legaly possesed said gun would be evidence in my favor. You know the whole guilty untill proven innocent deal.

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scmoose said:
I'm thinking more along the lines of you sold the gun legally to someone. A week after the sale that someone breaks into a house, kills a bunch of bunch of people and ditches the gun. PD recovers the gun, runs the numbers and I'm the guy the numbers come back to because I bought the gun at a dealer. Now Im having to prove I didn't do the crime as opposed to them having to prove I did. I would hope a piece of paper saying who and more importantly when I no longer legaly possesed said gun would be evidence in my favor. You know the whole guilty untill proven innocent deal.

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Because no criminal in the history of mankind ever considered writing up a fake bill of sale. "No officer, that isn't my gun, I sold it weeks ago...see...here is a completely legit piece of paper that I totally didn't write myself to prove it."

That piece of paper, unless you have it notarized, still carries the burden of you proving it to be a true statement. It isn't a magical wand.

Face it. A bill of sale makes people feel better about themselves, just as a blankie or a pacifier for a baby. If you sell a firearm to a person who ultimately commits a crime with it, >IF< it is traced back to you the questions will go like this:

"Did you sell it to him?" "Yes"
"Did you follow the law, meaning verifying age, state of residence, if a pistol if he had a permit/carry license?" "Yes"
"Can you prove that?" "I don't legally have to."
"Ok, have a nice day."

There is no legal burden of proof on us to maintain an ongoing database of our personal transactions nor keep tabs on individuals that at times of sale complied with all applicable laws as can be determined.
 
scmoose said:
Now Im having to prove I didn't do the crime as opposed to them having to prove I did.
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This is 100% not true. In the situation you describe the answer is, “I sold it to a guy, I checked his d/l so I know he was in-state and he said that he wasn’t a felon pr otherwise prohibited.” The police will ask a few questions to determine if they think you’re credible and that’ll be the end of it. If you want to provide any details that you remember to the police, fine, but going beyond that doesn’t really help you.

The bill of sale is a piece of paper with writing on it that they have no way to validate, you could have created it before or after your killing spree, using the information of a random person obtained in hundreds of possible ways; or you could be setting someone up in a ham-handed way. Of course the police will take it if you offer it, but that doesn’t mean that they are, or are not, done with you.
 
Booger types faster than me, I need coffee.
 
Well, I’ll be .... might as well get the hate otw now - - COUNT ON ME to always mention BOS in any classifieds I might post up here; when the gun doesn’t sell, I can look my wife in the eye and say, “Dang baby, I tried. Now, whatchyoo got that we can try and hock now? :D
 
B00ger said:
Because no criminal in the history of mankind ever considered writing up a fake bill of sale. "No officer, that isn't my gun, I sold it weeks ago...see...here is a completely legit piece of paper that I totally didn't write myself to prove it."

That piece of paper, unless you have it notarized, still carries the burden of you proving it to be a true statement. It isn't a magical wand.

Face it. A bill of sale makes people feel better about themselves, just as a blankie or a pacifier for a baby. If you sell a firearm to a person who ultimately commits a crime with it, >IF< it is traced back to you the questions will go like this:

"Did you sell it to him?" "Yes"
"Did you follow the law, meaning verifying age, state of residence, if a pistol if he had a permit/carry license?" "Yes"
"Can you prove that?" "I don't legally have to."
"Ok, have a nice day."

There is no legal burden of proof on us to maintain an ongoing database of our personal transactions nor keep tabs on individuals that at times of sale complied with all applicable laws as can be determined.
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Is this from personal experience or someone you know where that it actually happened them? Or is it a made up scenario how you think it going to go?? I see people write this all the time but I've never seen someone say this really happened to them and that was what they told the police.
 
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Jim1392 said:
Is this from personal experience or someone you know where that it actually happened them? Or is it a made up scenario how you think it going to go?? I see people write this all the time but I've never seen someone say this really happened to them and that was what they told the police.
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Yes, I’ve seen it happen, thanks for playing. My example was shortened for brevity.


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B00ger said:
Yes, I’ve seen it happen, thanks for playing. My example was shortened for brevity.


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Not exactly sure what the smart ass "thanks for playing means" I thought it was a reasonable question but for brevity sake "If you say so". :rolleyes:
 
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Jim1392 said:
Not exactly sure what the smart ass "thanks for playing means" I thought it was a reasonable question but for brevity sake "If you say so". :rolleyes:
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Thank you, and I do, as do the current laws of NC.


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https://www.ncgunowners.com/xf/threads/private-sale-of-a-handgun-in-nc.822/
Just to stir everyone up again........................

Since I've retired I'm trying to simplify life. If I want something and the person requires a BOS I'll sign it, no different than a store purchase. I'm getting ready to thin the herd the first of the year. Will probably take them over to Atlas and let them deal with the buyers. I don't like strangers coming around the house and I'm not much on clandestine meetings. Its worth it to me to pay their percentage than deal with the BS. Each to his own, YMMV.
 
"Hi welcome to my yard sale! Sure, I would like to sell you this hammer, crowbar, baseball bat, or machete but first....please fill out this form with all your personal information including a contact number in case you bash or hack someone's head off and in lieu of the authorities finding and punishing the murderer, they prosecute the instrument."

Now substitute 'hammer,crowbar, baseball bat, or machete' with gasoline, matches or other flammable fluids when talking high-capacity instruments of potential terrible death when misused.

This mentality has lead to gun control throughout my lifetime. It must change.
 
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Jim1392 said:
Is this from personal experience or someone you know where that it actually happened them? Or is it a made up scenario how you think it going to go?? I see people write this all the time but I've never seen someone say this really happened to them and that was what they told the police.
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I've personally had a gun I sold show up at a crime scene.
The feller I sold a Mossberg 500 to used it to shoot up his baby mamas trailer with her, her new man, and the kid inside. The boyfried took some pellets in the arm.
I did not have a bill of sale.

The conversation with the detectives went much like this:
No, I don't own it. I sold it.
No, I don't have a bill of sale.
No, I didn't try to kill anyone.
Now, please leave and don't come back without a warrant.
It's been over two years and nobody has come back yet.
 
Here I am showing up, all ready for fun, and what do I find? Ain't even no horse left. Just a big bloody hole in the ground and some guys whacking it with clubs........
 
Jim1392 said:
Is this from personal experience or someone you know where that it actually happened them? Or is it a made up scenario how you think it going to go?? I see people write this all the time but I've never seen someone say this really happened to them and that was what they told the police.
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Another personal experience with a similar story here. Cop comes into a shooting supply store I'm at to ask another regular is he sold a pistol to a fella that did something stupid with it. Fella says "yep", policeman says "thanks" and that was it.
 
noway2 said:
I have a friend that moved here to Lewisville so maybe he’s your neighbor, from CA. He went nuts and bought a bunch of guns. His sister, who works for a secret squirrel agency got called on the carpet and asked why her brother would buy all those guns and what is he planning.
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noway2 said:
That was his point, because he didn’t. They aren’t supposed to know this sort of thing, but not only do they, but it attracted attention and concern. At least that is what he swears by.
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18 U.S.C. § 923(g)(3), the sale or disposition of two or more handguns must be reported if they occur at the same time or within five consecutive business days of each other.
 
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