School me on 1911 Guide Rods & Bushings

Tim

Tim

Checked Out
Staff member
2A Bourbon Hound 2024
2A Bourbon Hound OG
Charter Life Member
Benefactor
Vendor
Multi-Factor Enabled
Joined
Dec 17, 2016
Messages
16,465
Location
A Glass Cage of Emotion
Rating - 100%
85   0   0
I have a ~12 year old Springfield 1911 (Loaded model) that has the 2 piece guide rod requiring an allen wrench to remove. I'm thinking it's time to change out the springs as it's still on the original and though this would be a good time to swap out to a normal guide rod.

My biggest question is with regard to the bushing. It seems reasonable that a different guide rod would require a different bushing. True or no? If so, are these typically drop-in parts or should I expect to need some fitting?

Honestly, if it's a choice between doing/paying for fitting a new bushing and just keeping the 2 piece rod, I'll keep the rod. But, if the standard guide rod can be swapped with just drop in parts I'll do it.
 
Last edited:
A non full length guide rod will require a different bushing,
You can buy a drop in bushing or a match bushing that requires fitting and generally a bushing wrench for take down.
Edit: most of the drop in parts have the some fitting may be required warning on the package, so I may have gotten lucky , I've only changed two bushings on 1911s I've owned, both times the drop in parts were exactly that, drop in.
 
Last edited:
Tim said:
I have a ~12 year old Springfield 1911 (Loaded model) that has the 2 piece guide rod requiring an allen wrench to remove. I'm thinking it's time to change out the springs as it's still on the original and though this would be a good time to swap out to a normal guide rod.

My biggest question is with regard to the bushing. It seems reasonable that a different guide rod would require a different bushing. True or no? If so, are these typically drop-in parts or should I expect to need some fitting?

Honestly, if it's a choice between doing/paying for fitting a new bushing and just keeping the 2 piece rod, I'll keep the rod. But, if the standard guide rod can be swapped with just drop in parts I'll do it.
Click to expand...

If you are shooting a custom built hardball pistol at Camp Perry, yes, you should have an oversized guide rod plug fit to your slide and bushing to ensure consistent, precise lockup.

If you have a service pistol that was assembled in factory production, just install a good, U.S. made G.I.-format guide rod and plug system. It will not affect function or accuracy, and it will make maintenance easier.

The SA Loadeds have a guide rod sleeve around the FLGR that engages your barrel bushing. It has the same dimensions as a GI spring plug. Easy drop-in swap.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Tim
JRV said:
The SA Loadeds have a guide rod sleeve around the FLGR that engages your barrel bushing. It has the same dimensions as a GI spring plug. Easy drop-in swap.
Click to expand...
THIS^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
 
S4f said:
A non full length guide rod will require a different bushing,
You can buy a drop in bushing or a match bushing that requires fitting and generally a bushing wrench for take down.
Edit: most of the drop in parts have the some fitting may be required warning on the package, so I may have gotten lucky , I've only changed two bushings on 1911s I've owned, both times the drop in parts were exactly that, drop in.
Click to expand...

it does not need a new bushing but it will require a new GI cap I have changed many full length guide rods on multiple brands of 1911s now a bull barrel bushingless 1911 is a whole different animal
 
vaskeet said:
it does not need a new bushing but it will require a new GI cap I have changed many full length guide rods on multiple brands of 1911s now a bull barrel bushingless 1911 is a whole different animal
Click to expand...
You are correct I was wrong . And and as many 1911 as I've been around I don't know why . I have a feeling it was the four hours sleep I got last night and the two monster energy drinks I had today
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: JRV
Barrel bushing will remain the same with either set up....
The guide rod plug you have now will work with a GI recoil spring guide if you just want to change one part out and see how you like it. But if you're shipping them you may as well get the set.

Changing the full length guide rod will change the feel of the action, more noticeably when you are manually cycling it but also under operation. A full length rod keeps the spring uniform and prevents it from "snaking" around in the channel, you will also be able to hear the spring moving in the gun if you are using a GI spring guide.
Full length rods also increase the life of the recoil spring and help keep ejection more uniform.

Personally I would rather have a full length rod over a GI every time, but I would also want a properly fitted One-piece rather than a 2 piece. But either way Id prefer a full length every time regardless.
 
Last edited:
Also my apologies to @Tim for the incorrect information
 
  • Like
Reactions: Tim
Me. said:
Ncmitch, why would you prefer a full-length? Aside from the cool-factor, they don’t seem to provide a benefit.

I guess they make taking the slide off easier.
Click to expand...

More weight in the front of the pistol...
smoother operation...

Its more of a feel thing for me over the weight difference and I also like being able to take the slide off the frame in one piece.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Me.
S4f said:
Also my apologies to @Tim for the incorrect information
Click to expand...

No worries, that's why I made the post...to learn stuff.

For example, I asked about the bushing when I reallly needed to ask about the plug/cap. My brain fart lead to good info being shared.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: S4f
I would love to see anyone pick up a 1911 shoot it and tell me which recoil spring guide is installed (no looking ) . its like brown or white eggs
 
Last edited:
vaskeet said:
I would love to see anyone pick up a 1911 shoot it and tell me which recoil spring guide is installed (no looking ) . its like brown or white eggs
Click to expand...

Handcycling will give it away, especially with a lightweight recoil spring set-up. GI systems are completely fine, but they definitely have a crunchy squeak about them. Coil springs, by design, do not want to compress in a straight line if there is even an iota of noncocentricity in the windings.

FLGRs are definitely smoother (there is a reason almost every other handgun uses them). They typically require fitting for reliability in a 1911, and they are just inconvenient for maintenance purposes.
 
I think @John Travis said flgrs aid in feeding and extraction.
They extract money from your pocket and feed it into someone else's.
Hopefully he'll be along shortly to correct me if ive misquoted him
 
S4f said:
I think @John Travis said flgrs aid in feeding and extraction.
They extract money from your pocket and feed it into someone else's.
Hopefully he'll be along shortly to correct me if ive misquoted him
Click to expand...

I have one 1911 with a one-piece FLGR installed (it came with a GI setup), and it is a 10mm in which I run 18.5 through 23 pound springs depending on the ammo I am using ("hot .40" for range shooting through real-deal 10mm while hunting or hiking).

In that instance, the FLGR makes it extremely easy to change springs without disassembling anything beyond rotating the bushing and removing the spring guide, and the FLGR effectively prevents kinking, which heavy springs really like to do during assembly.

So, if I put money in someone else's pocket in exchange for making maintenance and management of that pistol simpler, I was glad to do so at the time and would do so again.
 
Yeah. A heavier gauge spring is typically pretty easy to keep straight during compression, but if you introduce any yaw, it tends to keep that bend.

With a GI plug setup, I would always get kinks in the 23 pounders no matter how I reinstalled them. I'm not a hydraulic press, so I don't do things perfectly. A FLGR helps prevent those kinks while guiding the spring cap back under the bushing.
 
So many myths and misconceptions surrounding that...thing.

For one, the spring can't "snake around" during operation. With the slide in battery, there are only five for six unsupported coils and they're pretty close together. By the time the slide has moved a half inch, the spring is supported on ID and OD by the stub guide and the plug, and at full slide travel, it's completely encapsulated. There just isn't room in the tunnel for the spring to deflect laterally to any practical degree. Certainly not enough to cause a problem. John Browning wasn't an idiot.

JRV said:
the FLGR effectively prevents kinking, which heavy springs really like to do during assembly.
Click to expand...

If you can't feed a spring into the tunnel without it squirming around, you need to change your technique.

And you should probably stop using "heavy" springs. They serve no real purpose other than to make money for the people who sell springs. The function of the "recoil" spring is to return the slide. Whatever else it does is incidental. As long as the gun goes to battery reliably, you have enough spring.

S4f said:
I think @John Travis said
flgrs aid in feeding and extraction.

They extract money from your pocket and feed it into someone else's.
Hopefully he'll be along shortly to correct me if ive misquoted him
Click to expand...

You're spot on.
 
Last edited:
John Travis said:
So many myths and misconceptions surrounding that...thing.

For one, the spring can't "snake around" during operation. With the slide in battery, there are only five for six unsupported coils and they're pretty close together. By the time the slide has moved a half inch, the spring is supported on ID and OD by the stub guide and the plug, and at full slide travel, it's completely encapsulated. There just isn't room in the tunnel for the spring to deflect laterally to any practical degree. Certainly not enough to cause a problem. John Browning wasn't an idiot.
Click to expand...

No one said anything about this? The crunching sensation occurs when those five or six coils contact the front of a GI guide rod, and that occurs when a spring is less than perfectly straight (which is most springs after they have heated up over the course of a match).

Browning was an incredible designer for his time, but everyone needs to stop conflating the institutional inertia of military contracts through back-to-back world wars with perfection of design or meritorious longevity. 1911s are ergonomic and enjoyable to shoot, but they have a lot of features that are obsolescent, like barrel links and locking lugs.

Pistols have moved on to ejection port breech locking, cammed locking surfaces, and supported (or even captive) springs for a reason. It's like fuel injection and independent suspension, but for guns.

And I carry a 1911. I know it's borderline obsolete. But I am also willing to do the maintenance and deal with the quirks to reap the benefits.

If you can't feed a spring into the tunnel without it squirming around, you need to change your technique.
Click to expand...

It's not feeding the spring into the dust cover tunnel that's the problem, it's compressing the spring plug from full extension to under the bushing that's the problem. Two thirds of the spring is free to bend and yaw. If you have a technique, I am open to suggestions.

And you should probably stop using "heavy" springs. They serve no real purpose other than to make money for the people who sell springs. The function of the "recoil" spring is to return the slide. Whatever else it does is incidental. As long as the gun goes to battery reliably, you have enough spring.
Click to expand...

I am well within and mostly below factory specs for a Delta Elite running 18.5-23 pound recoil springs. I know what a recoil spring does, and I stay near manufacturer guidelines. I also have fitted an oversized firing pin stop and use a 25 pound mainspring to retard slide velocity.
 
BatteryOaksBilly said:
I have changed out at least 50 for folks. 2 minute job. AH magazine did a several page report with and without the FLGR. Ransom Rest proved NO change in groups.
Click to expand...


They didn't even have to do the test to disprove that myth. With the gun assembled, the guide rod never touches the barrel and is only connected to the slide through the spring plug...with a few thousandths' clearance. So, how CAN it affect accuracy?
 
JRV...and I'm really not trying to be an ass...but there's so much you don't understand that I don't even know where to start. I used to hold free workshops for the guys on the forum, but circumstances forced me to stop several years ago. I'd have been happy to have you down for one, but I'm afraid that ship has sailed.

JRV said:
And I carry a 1911.
Click to expand...

And I've been wrenchin' on Johnny's toy for over 50 years. I'm whatcha call a ringer.
 
Last edited:
im no expert, but i did attend the gusmithing program at pcc some years back. the instructor who i believe is dead now, used to laugh when someone swapped out a standard (short) guide rod for a full length version. imo that told me all i needed to know. he was old and i know how old timers use the if it aint broke, dont fix it mentality, but i agree. never had a short gr fail on me and i used 1911s fairly regulalry during that time. to me the allen wrench rod just seems like overkill. no offense to anyone using one as i had several that came that way and i never bothered swapping them out. best wishes to all and enjoy your 1911s
 
<OP bows out with thanks to all>
 
Mr. Bggs said:
. he was old and i know how old timers use the if it aint broke, dont fix it mentality
Click to expand...


He understood the concept of Marketing 101

To wit:

The first thing to do is convince the customer that he needs it, and then sell it to him.

Heavy duty springs and shock buffs to prevent frame battering are other examples.

With any new gimmick, the question that begs to be asked:

"What is it for?"

The answer is usually:

"To sell"

What's so good about FLGRs?

*shrug* Nothin'

Well, then...what's so bad about FLGRs?

*shrug* Nothin'
 
John Travis said:
And I've been wrenchin' on Johnny's toy for over 50 years. I'm whatcha call a ringer.
Click to expand...

Okay, well, I am still open to a suggestion on installing a factory spec recoil spring in a 10mm without kinking. Not trying to be a smartass... if I can get a standard system back in there, I'm all ears.

Here's why I run the factory spec weight: I can't run factory 180gr XTPs out of that gun, EGW firing pin stop and heavier mainspring installed, without getting big swells in my brass if I run an 18.5 or occasional little swells with a 20. A 22 pound recoil spring adds just enough forward pressure to delay unlocking and keep my brass in good shape.

I don't have misconceptions about a recoil spring serving to "soften recoil" or "protect the frame" or any other fuddlore that's counter to physics or the function of a properly-fitted 1911 with correct lower lug dimensions.

So, thoughts? I've considered going to an even heavier mainspring, but I'm not thrilled about the thought of increasing trigger weight more than necessary on a hunting gun. It would permit a more reasonable recoil spring weight.
 
JRV said:
Okay, well, I am still open to a suggestion on installing a factory spec recoil spring in a 10mm without kinking. Not trying to be a smartass... if I can get a standard system back in there, I'm all ears.
Click to expand...

Why don't you Just Do It?
 
JRV said:
Okay, well, I am still open to a suggestion on installing a factory spec recoil spring in a 10mm without kinking. Not trying to be a smartass... if I can get a standard system back in there, I'm all ears.

Here's why I run the factory spec weight: I can't run factory 180gr XTPs out of that gun, EGW firing pin stop and heavier mainspring installed, without getting big swells in my brass if I run an 18.5 or occasional little swells with a 20. A 22 pound recoil spring adds just enough forward pressure to delay unlocking and keep my brass in good shape.

I don't have misconceptions about a recoil spring serving to "soften recoil" or "protect the frame" or any other fuddlore that's counter to physics or the function of a properly-fitted 1911 with correct lower lug dimensions.

So, thoughts? I've considered going to an even heavier mainspring, but I'm not thrilled about the thought of increasing trigger weight more than necessary on a hunting gun. It would permit a more reasonable recoil spring weight.
Click to expand...

cant help you there as my 10mm is a bushingless bull barrel
 
  • Like
Reactions: S4f
vaskeet said:
cant help you there as my 10mm is a bushingless bull barrel
Click to expand...
Yeah both of mine are the bushing less bull barrel.
I'm guessing ria?
 
Marketing and gimmicks.

There will always be someone who wants to offer "new and improved" stuff to separate us from our money.

I offer as an example, the now defunct Para Ordnance Power Extractor and all the hype they put forth.

"If your pistol doesn't have this extractor...you NEED this pistol."

Then...when the gimmick was not only not the cure-all it was touted to be, and even brought a few unique problems of its own to the game...it quietly went the way of the dinosaur.

So, many people claim to have "the answer" but the answer has been there for over a hundred years.

Build the damn thing to spec. Feed it decent ammunition and keep it reasonably clean and it'll run.
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom