Firearms instructor shoots himself.

This is the guy who shot himself using a Serpa and everyone blamed the Serpa. I like Serpas fine. I have at least three and i have no idea how many draws from them. I never understood all the Serpa hate.
Preach.
 
This is the guy who shot himself using a Serpa and everyone blamed the Serpa. I like Serpas fine. I have at least three and i have no idea how many draws from them. I never understood all the Serpa hate.


Really? It's simple common sense. The holster requires you to actuate a button with your trigger finger, over the trigger, in a similar manner to a trigger pull, while you are drawing your weapon. That develops muscle memory. While you should never be in a hurry to holster your pistol, the same isn't true of the draw. It's a bad design teaches bad habits.

There's a reason you see them in so many draw-related NDs. There's also a reason they're banned at manner competitions, classes, and ranges.

Plenty of much better designed holsters on the market if you require mechanical retention.
 
There's also a reason they're banned at manner competitions, classes, and ranges.

Find one for $10 in the discount bin, break the button out of it and they'll let you run them. I've been doing that for 3 years now. Finally took the black tape off the remaining 'button hole' so the RO could see it wasn't there without having to ask me.
 
Find one for $10 in the discount bin, break the button out of it and they'll let you run them. I've been doing that for 3 years now. Finally took the black tape off the remaining 'button hole' so the RO could see it wasn't there without having to ask me.

Lol. Yeah, that works and fixes the issue too...
 
I would be interested in knowing his response if you decide to ask.
I did ask today, and he reminded me of all the holes in the trays, the dividers, and even the target holders....lol. I had forgotten about those! He had pointed them out to me very early in our instruction, over a year ago now.

He does allow a select few draw and shoot, but only if there's nobody else in there, or very few people, and only when he's sure they can do it safely. He doesn't want everyone waving guns around in there, because he doesn't know how proficient they are with drawing from a holster.
 
This is the guy who shot himself using a Serpa and everyone blamed the Serpa. I like Serpas fine. I have at least three and i have no idea how many draws from them. I never understood all the Serpa hate.

The Serpa holster isn't bad, it's how people use them. You are supposed to depress the lock release with your finger extended and flat so it comes out indexed against the frame or trigger guard, but in use people use the tip of their finger to depress the button and it continues into the trigger guard and you end Tex'ing your self.

I still have a couple of Serpas but there are better options now.
 
The holster requires you to actuate a button with your trigger finger, over the trigger, in a similar manner to a trigger pull, while you are drawing your weapon
I got one of those with the button when I bought the Glock! Dang! I've never used it, thought I'd use it in matches, until Billy told me I can't.
 
Find one for $10 in the discount bin, break the button out of it and they'll let you run them. I've been doing that for 3 years now. Finally took the black tape off the remaining 'button hole' so the RO could see it wasn't there without having to ask me.
Now you've answered my next question. Thanks! Glad I don't have to toss that one I got in the trash bin.
 
Safariland makes some retention holsters less prone to NDs than a Serpa if you need or want that kind of retention. GLS and ALS come to mind.
 
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I did ask today, and he reminded me of all the holes in the trays, the dividers, and even the target holders....lol. I had forgotten about those! He had pointed them out to me very early in our instruction, over a year ago now.

He does allow a select few draw and shoot, but only if there's nobody else in there, or very few people, and only when he's sure they can do it safely. He doesn't want everyone waving guns around in there, because he doesn't know how proficient they are with drawing from a holster.
Many years ago I worked at a large gun shop that had 20 indoor shooting bays and my primary job was to act as the Range officer. Many of our shooting trays and partitions had bullet holes in them and we had a "no holster" rule that eliminated people wanting to practice drawing from the hip causing even more damage and liability. Weekly I would have to replace to replace the light tubes in the ceiling where folks would send an accidental discharge upwards. I found that about 75% of our customers were new to shooting and were causing most of the damage and as time went by the more serious shooters would find an outdoor club of some sort to shoot at.
 
Tex should have shot the bad guy regardless of his self inflicted GSW.
 
Many years ago I worked at a large gun shop that had 20 indoor shooting bays and my primary job was to act as the Range officer. Many of our shooting trays and partitions had bullet holes in them and we had a "no holster" rule that eliminated people wanting to practice drawing from the hip causing even more damage and liability. Weekly I would have to replace to replace the light tubes in the ceiling where folks would send an accidental discharge upwards. I found that about 75% of our customers were new to shooting and were causing most of the damage and as time went by the more serious shooters would find an outdoor club of some sort to shoot at.
I think in light of the shooting/death recently at my range, things will be even tighter now. Though how can the guys really tell who is new/depressed and who isn't? They can't read minds! Not sure what they can do about gauging peoples' experience/intent before they go in.

In my case, I got instruction from the range manager for a while before going in on my own. So they knew I was ok, more or less. lol.
 
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I think in light of the shooting/death recently at my range, things will be even tighter now. Though how can the guys really tell who is new and who isn't? They can't read minds! Not sure what they can do about gauging peoples' experience before they go in.

In my case, I got instruction from the range manager for a while before going in on my own. So they knew I was ok, more or less. lol.
How can we tell whos new? Less then 10 seconds from the minute they walk in the door. They pass the first test ? Another 15 seconds of them talking to me. 5 minutes thru the sign in process and more talk?? Yeah we can tell where you rank safety wise. To a certain extent, obviously.
 
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How can we tell whos new? Less then 10 seconds from the minute they walk in the door. They pass the first test ? Another 15 seconds of them talking to me. 5 minutes thru the sign in process and more talk?? Yeah we can tell where you rank safety wise.
But can you tell if someone wants to end their life with one of your rented guns? This is what all of us are asking ourselves the last few weeks, trust me, there was no sign that I could see.
 
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Probably not, they plan, they hide it well.
That's what my cousin (the therapist) said. It haunts me, though. Always will.
This is my second go-round with this sort of thing.
 
The Serpa holster isn't bad, it's how people use them. You are supposed to depress the lock release with your finger extended and flat so it comes out indexed against the frame or trigger guard, but in use people use the tip of their finger to depress the button and it continues into the trigger guard and you end Tex'ing your self.

I still have a couple of Serpas but there are better options now.

If you want to bet your life/leg on your flexed index finger landing on the trigger guard vs the trigger I guess that’s up to you.

If you consider the failure mode vs using some other type of retention (thumb seems to work) I think there’s no excuse for running an intact Serpa.

I think the real reason they’re popular is the price. Yes there’s an old one in my box of holsters.
 
Really? It's simple common sense. The holster requires you to actuate a button with your trigger finger, over the trigger, in a similar manner to a trigger pull, while you are drawing your weapon. That develops muscle memory. While you should never be in a hurry to holster your pistol, the same isn't true of the draw. It's a bad design teaches bad habits.
There's a reason you see them in so many draw-related NDs. There's also a reason they're banned at manner competitions, classes, and ranges.
Plenty of much better designed holsters on the market if you require mechanical retention
.

Not sure where you get this. Have you ever owned one? Doesn't sound like it. When i draw from a Serpa my trigger finger is not over the trigger. It over the frame of the gun above the trigger. So if that is what you are complaining about you are simply wrong. They are banned because people are idiots and departments will ban something for any reason to avoid possible liability from idiots doing idiotic things. Don't put your finger on the trigger until you are ready to fire. Same reason why you have to put disclaimers like "Caution: Hot Liquid" on a coffee pot or "Not for human consumption" on the Shampoo bottle. Why haven't every department and group banned them and only some?

Ever wondered why they still sell them in today's litigious society? Let that one sink in there... You think hard on that one. Then go buy a Serpa and try it yourself.

V
 
Not sure where you get this. Have you ever owned one? Doesn't sound like it. When i draw from a Serpa my trigger finger is not over the trigger. It over the frame of the gun above the trigger. So if that is what you are complaining about you are simply wrong. They are banned because people are idiots and departments will ban something for any reason to avoid possible liability from idiots doing idiotic things. Don't put your finger on the trigger until you are ready to fire. Same reason why you have to put disclaimers like "Caution: Hot Liquid" on a coffee pot or "Not for human consumption" on the Shampoo bottle. Why haven't every department and group banned them and only some?

Ever wondered why they still sell them in today's litigious society? Let that one sink in there... You think hard on that one. Then go buy a Serpa and try it yourself.

V

Tried them. They're crap and unsafe. And they can be jammed up fairly easily. Stupid design with many better options on the market.

They are banned in nearly every competition because people ND with them. Do to the design. It's good for putting on your ATV or something like that. But for any high stress situations like carry or competition it's sub optimal, to understate it.

They aren't allowed at matches because the people who run matches are very experienced and know what they are doing. Just my opinion. By all means enjoy yours.
 
Haters gonna hate. They are banned because people have the power to ban them... If they were truly dangerous Blackhawk would have been sued out of existence.
I have other holsters as well. I just think its hysteria. They are not junk, but like you said its just opinion. To each their own. But i think the fact that they are still sold means that lawyers of all these idiots who shot themselves didn't have a leg to stand on when it came to court.. <--- see what i did there? :)
 
Not sure where you get this. Have you ever owned one? Doesn't sound like it. When i draw from a Serpa my trigger finger is not over the trigger. It over the frame of the gun above the trigger. So if that is what you are complaining about you are simply wrong. They are banned because people are idiots and departments will ban something for any reason to avoid possible liability from idiots doing idiotic things. Don't put your finger on the trigger until you are ready to fire. Same reason why you have to put disclaimers like "Caution: Hot Liquid" on a coffee pot or "Not for human consumption" on the Shampoo bottle. Why haven't every department and group banned them and only some?

Ever wondered why they still sell them in today's litigious society? Let that one sink in there... You think hard on that one. Then go buy a Serpa and try it yourself.

V

Keep your holster. I don't care. I had one for five minutes and realized it was a terrible design. If you know anything about shooting, you know it's about developing muscle memory. The requirement to flex your finger just above the trigger while you draw your pistol is stupid and dangerous. You cannot rationalize your way around it. Plain and simple. It's physiology. You're training your muscles to flex under stress in a situation where fine motor skills go out the window. Justify it in your head and ignore the obvious at your own peril. No point in continuing to discuss it when logic isn't on the table. There's a reason they're the only holster banned at so many matches classes and ranges. The proof is in the pudding. You'll never find a respectable instructor or competitor running one either. That they haven't been sued is moot(assuming that it's even the case). Poor design doesn't equate liable. Good day...
 
Safariland makes some retention holsters less prone to NDs than a Serpa if you need or want that kind of retention. GLS and ALS come to mind.
This is the correct answer.
Serpa. $25
Safariland, $40
The difference in build quality between the two is far beyond $15. The Safariland is 10 times the quality over the Serpa.
The thumb retention of the Safariland is a much better design, and faster too.
 
Haters gonna hate. They are banned because people have the power to ban them... If they were truly dangerous Blackhawk would have been sued out of existence.
I have other holsters as well. I just think its hysteria. They are not junk, but like you said its just opinion. To each their own. But i think the fact that they are still sold means that lawyers of all these idiots who shot themselves didn't have a leg to stand on when it came to court.. <--- see what i did there? :)
I don’t know a match director anywhere in eastern NC who likes them or readily allows them in their matches. Some of these matches have 100 plus shooters for six stages which means 600 load and reholsters, then 600 more draws of a hot gun.

Even Vickers and Hackathorn won’t allow them in their classes.
 
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I like how people ignore reality. If it is so dangerous why is it still sold? Let's just admit its opinion, everyone can have theirs.

For the record, i have lots of holsters, there are better holsters than the Serpa, totally agree with that. BUT, the lever placement is not WHY Tex shot himself.

V
 
In 2018 I had a Mod from This Forum [The greatest there is], stand on the range and say " This is the first time I have ever drawn my gun from a holster and shot". Get that??? I didn't think much of it at the time because I know N.C. requires this for CWP??? Or do they??? In any event, a firearms Mod that admits to this is why we have to start folks with their gun out, even in The Meet and Greet match. Cause you Never know What Level of shooter you are dealing with...….! When @Millie shoots from here, she usually shoots from ready. She has shot from concealment, she is honest with me and more importantly herself, she does Not look comfortable. Now not letting folks do this is akin to telling them to stay out of the water til they can swim. The Good thing is that this can be done in the safety of your home with a Cold gun. The Bad thing about this is, not one in 100 will give you 10 minutes a day to get better. Getting better requires some work...…..Most people don't like that. We recently had a discussion of how many folks carry Every Day...EDC....if you did it for "Practice" the number would be much lower.
Do not confuse Practice with Shooting....two entirely different things.
 
When @Millie shoots from here, she usually shoots from ready. She has shot from concealment, she is honest with me and more importantly herself, she does Not look comfortable.
I've been working on it a lot here, but it's still not speedy, though it's getting more "comfortable" as I do it more.
One of these days, I'm coming down there to try the Wizard, from concealment, with the Glock.....I'm determined! LOL.
 
Unless I'm trying a specific grip technique, testing, a sighting thing or what-not...shooting from the draw is all I ever do at my range.
Of course it's my range, so I get a pass. :cool:
Folks that visit, and that I'm comfortable with, I encourage them to practice live fire from the draw. It's different than dry firing in the living room. Everything is hot and it changes your mindset.
What is it..something like 80% of self defense scenario's using firearms only require the firearm to be presented, and the bad guy runs away. IMO, being proficient with the draw is a critical element of the program.

I didn't think much of it at the time because I know N.C. requires this for CWP??? Or do they???
No they don't. I'd be surprised if you actually tried to do so. My guess is you'd be severely reprimanded or even dismissed from the class.
Seems that SOP in NC is setting the firearm on the bench in front of you, chamber open, and when instructed to lock and load you then become prepared to fire.
There is no shooting from low ready, high ready, or any of that. That gun stays on the bench until instructed otherwise. If you wanna shoot from the draw, take a different class or go play with USPSA.
Of course there's a zillion people 'teaching' this stuff so who knows what some of them do.
 
.... Answer the question... Why is it still sold in the most litigious society on this planet?
Not to sound like a smartass, but honestly I don’t know, and I don’t care. Just because Blackhawk's lawyers are okay with it doesn’t mean you should be.

Look, my first kydex/polymer holster was a Serpa. They are widely available, so I bought one after only buying leather for carry till then.

First time I shot with it on the clock in a match seven or eight years ago I was yanking on the thing in the “stress” of the moment right after the shot clock went off. Didn’t like it. In that time I’ve been through multiple classes with recognized trainers both locally and nationally and heard the same thing regarding that holster. Won’t allow it in their classes.

Additionally, I shoot defensive pistol matches nearly every weekend somewhere in the state of NC with around 5-6 different match directors, some who I have gotten to know personally and they have been doing this for upwards of twenty years each. I’m also a safety officer at the largest of those matches where we run 75-100 shooters a month. None of these match directors like those holsters, and you won’t see a competitive shooter run one.

Now, lets say you are LEO, and have to go hands-on with folks from time to time. You obviously need some kind of more positive retention. As I mentioned up thread, there are superior alternatives. Safariland making two fine examples. I own neither because that’s not how I carry, nor am I LEO.

My only two cents further on the matter, if you decide to try your hand at shooting on the clock, don’t bring one of those holsters.
 
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No they don't. I'd be surprised if you actually tried to do so. My guess is you'd be severely reprimanded or even dismissed from the class.
Seems that SOP in NC is setting the firearm on the bench in front of you, chamber open, and when instructed to lock and load you then become prepared to fire.
There is no shooting from low ready, high ready, or any of that. That gun stays on the bench until instructed otherwise. If you wanna shoot from the draw, take a different class or go play with USPSA.
Of course there's a zillion people 'teaching' this stuff so who knows what some of them do.

That's not exactly true. It depends on the course of fire various instructors have had approved by NC DOJ when they design courses other than the standard NC DOJ red book. I know of several that have included drawing from concealed, shooting from cover, shooting from low ready, etc. included in the live fire qualification.
 
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