9 MM Hornady 115 grn HP

Normally I would know what powder to use if shooting in a hand gun but I want to load 100 - 200 rounds for an AR-9 pistol with a 7.5" Barrel. Looking at Bullseye, Unique and CFE Pistol. The first 2 I was thinking about 1050 to 1100 ft/sec and the CFE Pistol between 1100 and 1150 ft/sec.

Not really sure if it will make that much of a difference out of the AR-9. I also might use them in a AR-9 carbine. Was thinking about the slower burning powder, CFE Pistol might be best? At 10 to 12 yards, I do not think that they will be that much difference in accuracy.

Any ideas?

I would do a little research. I have used CFE pistol extensively for 9mm. I like it as well or better than the VV N-330 which seems to be the gold standard. Don't know about Bullseye. Lots of folks publish their handloading data. Load the CFE up to the max....and then go banging. You can use it for other calibers as well and it seems to be my goto for 9mm

Don't have much experience with CFE Pistol, but I have done some work with an AR 9mm, 16".

I was going for accuracy, and felt the lighter 115gn bullets would get me there, they stay supersonic to about 75 yards. (I use RMR 115 FMJ bullets, so probably a better BC than the bullets you mentioned). I had the best luck with Power Pistol, about 1/2 grain under the max published charge, which gave me better than 2.5" groups @ 100 yards, and 1500 fps. I tried AA#7 and got more velocity, but did not match the accuracy of Power Pistol.

I don't know how that will translate to a 7.5" barrel. Most of the comments on the web were "you won't see much velocity increase" but that was not my experience, I saw > 250fps more velocity with the 16" barrel. Since additional barrel length gives diminishing returns, I would not be surprised if you see 150 fps more velocity from the 7.5" barrel, compared to a 4.5" or 5" barrel.

Of the powders you list, I believe you would be best with the slower burning CFE powder.

OK....curiosity is at full mast. Don’t know if your goal is to push it to the limit or if you want to stay within a certain range of velocities. Bullseye looks a little peaked for the task...just based on the tables. So, I personally would rule that out.

Unique vs CFE. Interesting. A friend and I load a lot of 9mm and the CFE is the most consistent. Now that is for mid range target loads. If you want to push the 115 Gr to the max, then Unique is hard to beat as you will almost be compressed and none of that quirky “hold gun vertical then rotate 90 deg and Fire” testing that some folks do to see the SD change because your powder is only say, 50% of the case capacity and the “random ignition and burn” NASA discussions will commence.

CFE... we rarely push the CFE to the limits.... I think that CFE is a little more consistent for Target work than say the VV N-330. The VV N-330 is almost the de facto standard for a lot of BE 9mm shooters as well as the GSSF matches. There are some other VV N-series powders that will kick up the velocity by maybe 10+%.

OK... you probably have seen these, but if not, I thought they were interesting.

http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/9luger.html

For my simplistic mind....without having a chronograph and spending days on the range....if you know the velocity of a certain load (bullet” and also the barrel length, the tables in the above will predict...with a little common sense and Kentucky windage, the velocity for your 7.5” toy.

I have tried to do side-by-side comparisons of different powders and charges with the same bullet to see how much of powder A you need to get the same POI as a published load for powder B. The theory is that if the POI is higher for powder A, then you have a faster load and need to back off. That would be great if I had a Ransome rest rig, but I don’t “sandbag” well enough, so my shooting or accuracy variation is probably greater than the POI of the two loads. It then becomes a matter of how well (recoil, barrel twist, phase of the moon or maybe my breakfast...) I can shoot each load.

Bottom line....pick one....shoot it. Try the other.... if you want to hurl them at max velocity, then look at the VV N-series tables and pump that sucker up.... I would think that whatever you can feed it, even in the +P range would be safe...noisy probably, but safe.

Good Luck...

My goal is to not max velocity because they have a much better chance of betting shot through a silencer and did not want to go over 1100 ft/sec. I know that 1035 is the sound bar for sub-sonic. With publish loads, I always get a little below what is published. I was looking more at a lighter bullet and the speed of the burn. All powders that I listed have 1100 ft/sec in common but I want to get a complete powder burn if possible.

KnotRight said:

My goal is to not max velocity because they have a much better chance of betting shot through a silencer and did not want to go over 1100 ft/sec. I know that 1035 is the sound bar for sub-sonic. With publish loads, I always get a little below what is published. I was looking more at a lighter bullet and the speed of the burn. All powders that I listed have 1100 ft/sec in common but I want to get a complete powder burn if possible.

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Then Unique would be my choice as you will get a more uniform burn since the case is almost (maybe compressed) full. Unique is hard to beat.

KnotRight said:

My goal is to not max velocity because they have a much better chance of betting shot through a silencer and did not want to go over 1100 ft/sec. I know that 1035 is the sound bar for sub-sonic. With publish loads, I always get a little below what is published. I was looking more at a lighter bullet and the speed of the burn. All powders that I listed have 1100 ft/sec in common but I want to get a complete powder burn if possible.

Click to expand...

If you want subsonic from a 7.5" barrel, I think you will have better luck with heavier bullets, but if you really want to go less than 1100fps, with a 115gn bullet from a 7.5" barrel, then I would start with a faster burning powder. Bullseye might get you there. If I were to pick a powder to start with, given these parameters, I would be tempted to start with Clays. I have not tried it myself in 9mm, but I have had good results in 45acp and 38spl with reduced recoil loads.

A faster burning powder, operating in the mid to upper charge range, is more likely to reach a peak pressure that will expand the brass enough to form a gas seal, where a slow burning powder at the bottom of the charge range is less likely to do so. Without a gas seal, there will be more powder residue blowing back into the gun. Also, most powders burn cleaner at higher pressures.

With velocity being equal, a heavier bullet will have more energy at the muzzle, and will carry that energy farther downrange. It will depend on the gun, but a light bullet with a low velocity may have more problems cycling the action as well.

Now I have to ask, what is the purpose of going subsonic? Are you not wanting anyone to hear the bullet traveling downrange, or are you simply trying to protect your own ears? If the latter, there isn't much reason to go subsonic, the report will be suppressed enough to protect your hearing, even if the bullet is supersonic.

Toprudder said:

If you want subsonic from a 7.5" barrel, I think you will have better luck with heavier bullets, but if you really want to go less than 1100fps, with a 115gn bullet from a 7.5" barrel, then I would start with a faster burning powder. Bullseye might get you there. If I were to pick a powder to start with, given these parameters, I would be tempted to start with Clays. I have not tried it myself in 9mm, but I have had good results in 45acp and 38spl with reduced recoil loads.

A faster burning powder, operating in the mid to upper charge range, is more likely to reach a peak pressure that will expand the brass enough to form a gas seal, where a slow burning powder at the bottom of the charge range is less likely to do so. Without a gas seal, there will be more powder residue blowing back into the gun. Also, most powders burn cleaner at higher pressures.

With velocity being equal, a heavier bullet will have more energy at the muzzle, and will carry that energy farther downrange. It will depend on the gun, but a light bullet with a low velocity may have more problems cycling the action as well.

Now I have to ask, what is the purpose of going subsonic? Are you not wanting anyone to hear the bullet traveling downrange, or are you simply trying to protect your own ears? If the latter, there isn't much reason to go subsonic, the report will be suppressed enough to protect your hearing, even if the bullet is supersonic.

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Interesting. I think that the 147’s would also be my pick. As to the burn rates and peaks and gas seals. I would experiment with the Unique and load the top end. That is 4.3 and produces around 954 FPS. You will have a more uniform burn

4 grains of BE here for bolt impetus.

Any 115 gr 9mm bullet 3.3/Bullseye 1015 fps in 7.5 inch PSA 9mm gun......... 3.4/Bullseye for 147 gr...... If you go up .1 gr on either load it takes you to 1075 fps........ So stay at 3.3 for 115 and 3.4 for 147.........

They also feed and function in all the 9mm I have here...........Run fine in the 7.5 and 8 inch PSA guns.............

I wouldn't waste a lot of time doing much research on various different powders, not for subsonic............

Toprudder said:

If you want subsonic from a 7.5" barrel, I think you will have better luck with heavier bullets, but if you really want to go less than 1100fps, with a 115gn bullet from a 7.5" barrel, then I would start with a faster burning powder. Bullseye might get you there. If I were to pick a powder to start with, given these parameters, I would be tempted to start with Clays. I have not tried it myself in 9mm, but I have had good results in 45acp and 38spl with reduced recoil loads.

A faster burning powder, operating in the mid to upper charge range, is more likely to reach a peak pressure that will expand the brass enough to form a gas seal, where a slow burning powder at the bottom of the charge range is less likely to do so. Without a gas seal, there will be more powder residue blowing back into the gun. Also, most powders burn cleaner at higher pressures.

With velocity being equal, a heavier bullet will have more energy at the muzzle, and will carry that energy farther downrange. It will depend on the gun, but a light bullet with a low velocity may have more problems cycling the action as well.

Now I have to ask, what is the purpose of going subsonic? Are you not wanting anyone to hear the bullet traveling downrange, or are you simply trying to protect your own ears? If the latter, there isn't much reason to go subsonic, the report will be suppressed enough to protect your hearing, even if the bullet is supersonic.

Click to expand...

Toprudder, The reason for the Hornady 110 XTP bullets is because I bought 500 of them a year or so ago and was out of the 124 and 147 grn bullets. The Hornady manual shows that you can load that bullet around the 1050 ft/sec with a bunch of powder. That is where the original post came from. The reason for the subsonic is that I will keep a few 30 round magazine loaded in the gun case which will become one of my HD guns. I figure that in a HD situation, the shots will be with in 12ish yards and not really sure how much difference a 115 and 124 grn bullet would make at impact.

KnotRight said:

Toprudder, The reason for the Hornady 110 XTP bullets is because I bought 500 of them a year or so ago and was out of the 124 and 147 grn bullets. The Hornady manual shows that you can load that bullet around the 1050 ft/sec with a bunch of powder. That is where the original post came from. The reason for the subsonic is that I will keep a few 30 round magazine loaded in the gun case which will become one of my HD guns. I figure that in a HD situation, the shots will be with in 12ish yards and not really sure how much difference a 115 and 124 grn bullet would make at impact.

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The thread title says 115 Gr. Which one is it? Not really that big a deal, just confusing....now. The BE loads will be less. My only comment is that for a light bullet, the BE load is pretty small and getting close to some limits for consistent accuracy. My RCBS Uniflo with the small drum and a powder baffle would be tested. The Redding measures will go lower with more consistency. If I were shooting them and using my RCBS, then it would be the fluffy or less dense Unique. Load ‘em and bang away. Regardless, on the sub 4 Gr charges, I would sample more...if accuracy and consistency were a criteria. Now my Dillon’s charge bar is different. It would handle the lower weights and still be within 0.0005....

KnotRight said:

The Hornady manual shows that you can load that bullet around the 1050 ft/sec with a bunch of powder.

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True, but remember that the velocities they list are from a barrel shorter than 7.5”.

Toprudder said:

True, but remember that the velocities they list are from a barrel shorter than 7.5”.

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This may have got lost in the clutter. You can use this to get a rough idea of a shorter barrel vs a longer barrel’s velocity for many standard loads. If you also click on the link, you can see (graph) the Kinetic Energy based on barrel length. Take a lot of the guessing and speculation out of this discussion.

http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/9luger.html

Thanks @TomGCherry I really like that chart and going to look through the site when I get some extra time.

TomGCherry said:

This may have got lost in the clutter. You can use this to get a rough idea of a shorter barrel vs a longer barrel’s velocity for many standard loads. If you also click on the link, you can see (graph) the Kinetic Energy based on barrel length. Take a lot of the guessing and speculation out of this discussion.

http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/9luger.html

Click to expand...

That is interesting. Same barrel, just cut to shorter and shorter lengths.

I suppose my observation of 250fps increase from 4.75” to 16” was skewed by several things like totally different barrels, and possibly by the powder I chose. Still, the bore in my 16” barrel was very rough compared to the well honed bore in my Witness Elite Pistol. The chamber in my rifle has a very short and tight leade, so probably isn’t as much gas escaping before the bullet jumps far enough to form a gas seal. Lots of variables.