308 reloading problems

KnotRight said:
The primer blow back some how pushed the case forward [ ... ]
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No, the case got pushed forward (BEFORE things went "bang"), and then the primer blew back out of the case when it went off, because there was so much extra room back there. :)

KnotRight said:
[ ... ] and pulled it out of the extractor.
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No, actually I think the front edge of the extractor pushed the case forward until the shoulder bottomed out on the front of the chamber, and the case was so short that the extractor didn't reach far enough to hook over the case rim. (That's how the Savage extractor works, isn't it? You push the bolt face onto a round, and the extractor snaps over the rim?)

KnotRight said:
I sent the pictures to Shooters World and the guy they said he bets that the amount the primer backed out is how much the shoulder was pushed back.
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+1

KnotRight said:
I going back to sctrach on my next reloads of 308. I bought some factory ammo (first time ever buying 308) and want to see what the shoulder is after firing a couple to setup the die again.
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Yes! Good move.

Suggest you use the calipers to measure base-to-shoulder on the factory round BEFORE firing it, and then measure again afterward. It should get maybe .004" - .006" longer. Then adjust your dies so the resized brass is a little shorter than the fired round -- we're talking .00x" here -- but no shorter than the unfired factory round. Double check that the resized brass chambers okay -- and extracts :) -- and you're on the road again.
 
This thread is so far out in the weeds I don't know what to say... you need to get your ammo and gun in-spec and see how the system performs. This forensic speculation about how things went wrong is pointless... the ammo was out of spec.
 
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Did you try a factory round to see if this still happens?
If it still messes up it's the head space, if it doesn't then it's your brass.

It looks like the brass is too far away from the bolt face when it discharges and of course the primers have room to back out because of pressure. And the brass is probably too far into the chamber for the extractor to get a hold of it.
If that is the case it is out of spec rifle head space, or out of spec reloads.
Is the bolt factory issue for the rifle?
 
Catfish said:
This thread is so far out in the weeds I don't know what to say... you need to get your ammo and gun in-spec and see how the system performs. This forensic speculation about how things went wrong is pointless... the ammo was out of spec.
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Ain't that the truth!!!! And if the brass was pushed soooo far forward how did the firing pin even reach??
Begin with your rifle and a head space gauge.... and go from there....
 
Well I tested faith today.

I went to the range with 4 factory rounds, 4 reloads that was done months ago and 8 rounds of the problem brass.
The factory rounds measured unfired 1.6155" and fired 1.61825" 4 shot (used a Horandy Head Space gauge)
The older reloads measured fired 1.619" 4 shot
The brass with the primers backed out measured 1.5945 and fired 1.6201" only shot 3 times and you can see why I did not fire any more of these rounds. The rounds on the far right was shot first and the one on the far left was shot last.
All 11 rounds did hit a 20" steel at 300 and 500 yards.

Based on the fired measurements, how far back would you set the pushback?

Test Shots.jpg
 
Here is what I’d do, some will disagree.

When you chamber fired factory brass can you close the bolt with only a hair more effort than when you close the bolt with no round? If so, then don’t set the shoulder back at all, neck size and fire again. Repeat until it takes more pressure to close the bolt, then f/l size and push the shoulder back .002 and try the bolt again, you should be where you need to be. F/l size at that setting after every firing for that gun.

Oh, and scrap all your recent reloads.
 
JimB said:
Here is what I’d do, some will disagree.

When you chamber fired factory brass can you close the bolt with only a hair more effort than when you close the bolt with no round? If so, then don’t set the shoulder back at all, neck size and fire again. Repeat until it takes more pressure to close the bolt, then f/l size and push the shoulder back .002 and try the bolt again, you should be where you need to be. F/l size at that setting after every firing for that gun.

Oh, and scrap all your recent reloads.
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That's a recipe for disaster, firing short rounds is not the way to go. Doing so only continues the stress on an already stressed case. Luckily the case on the left split where it only caused a slight erosion in the chamber. If the split had occurred further down and the gases had escaped unsupported the outcome would have not been good, to say the least. Do not fire short rounds.
 
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Dale, I just throw away about 40 cases. Just reset the FL resizing dies to 1.617". Not sure when I can get back to the range after I reload a few more rounds with that setting. I did put a few cases in the Wilson case gauge and they were flush with the top as the other ones were sitting on the bottom of the gauge.

When adjusting the dies, I could not figure out how the case was growing longer in the head space gauge each time I adjusted the die down. Then I noticed that the depriming spindle was slipping a little and each time I raised the ram it pushed the primer out a little more. Yes, I claim to be KnotRight.
 
How did the factory ammo look after firing? Normal? Did it extract properly? Primers ok? If so, your sizing is what I would question. Running a headspace gauge is not a bad idea either as noted above.

I wouldnt fire any more existing reloads in this thing though..all the ones you have remaining Id disassemble and pitch the brass (save it and recycle it at the scrapper).

Dont go off of any measurements you have for sizing. Use the case gauge as posted earlier.
 
Dale Flinchum said:
That's a recipe for disaster,
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If you assume that the chamber is reasonably within spec, and I feel like it is, then firing factory rounds, which will be a little short, won’t do any harm. Perhaps you misunderstood me to say that he should fire his short reloads, that I would not recommend!
 
KnotRight said:
Dale, I just throw away about 40 cases. Just reset the FL resizing dies to 1.617". Not sure when I can get back to the range after I reload a few more rounds with that setting. I did put a few cases in the Wilson case gauge and they were flush with the top as the other ones were sitting on the bottom of the gauge.

When adjusting the dies, I could not figure out how the case was growing longer in the head space gauge each time I adjusted the die down. Then I noticed that the depriming spindle was slipping a little and each time I raised the ram it pushed the primer out a little more. Yes, I claim to be KnotRight.
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Don't throw the short brass away, mark it and store it way. Once you get back to running a normal load and the confidence that goes with it you can possibly "refit" the brass to normal headspace dimensions but that is a day or two away, something to think about during idle time. First things first, good luck.
 
JimB said:
If you assume that the chamber is reasonably within spec, and I feel like it is, then firing factory rounds, which will be a little short, won’t do any harm. Perhaps you misunderstood me to say that he should fire his short reloads, that I would not recommend!
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Sorry, misread your post.
 
If you find that the shoulders are too far back and you want to save the brass, perhaps consider running a sizing plug for a larger chambering through the neck, readjust your 308 die, and then resize the 308 cases. It should leave a slight shoulder below the neck that would keep the case from going in too far. The next firing should blow the shoulder back out to where it should be without compromising the thickness of the wall near the base.

It may be easier and cheaper just to get some more cases.
 
Wow.....
First and foremost, stop shooting the gun and have it properly head-spaced. With all due respect, the more you hunt around for a solution, the deeper in the weeds you get.
Once head-spaced, run some quality match ammo through it.
Report back once complete.
 
MDof2, today I went to the range with factory rounds and some older reloads and shot 11 times (6 @ 300 yards and 5 @500 yards) at 20" steel and had 11 hits. Then measured the head space and they were all real close to each other. About .00075 apart if my math is right. To get any more precise I would need to buy the RCBS precision gauge. Not intersted in doing that right now.
 
KnotRight said:
The factory rounds measured unfired 1.6155" and fired 1.61825" 4 shot (used a Horandy Head Space gauge)
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Doing the math, a new factory round's base-to-shoulder length grew by about .00275" (average), just less than .003".

If this were my rifle I'd consider the question settled, and the headspace excellent.


KnotRight said:
All 11 rounds did hit a 20" steel at 300 and 500 yards.
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KnotRight, if you decide this rifle is messed up, just send it to me and I'll dispose of it safely. :)
 
Gunworks I have 2 Savage Axis II with Sig Scopes (308 anf 6.5) and I do not think I can get any more out of those guns and scope. You might but not me. I wish that they made it in a 204 Ruger. Both of my guns have the Boyd adjustiable stocks. I have one of Savage's bolt action 22 with a heavier barrel in a key hold Boyd stock with a Simmons scope. Hits golf balls at 100 yards with ease. I never questioned the gun with all my screwing up reloading.
 
gunwonk said:
Doing the math, a new factory round's base-to-shoulder length grew by about .00275" (average), just less than .003".

If this were my rifle I'd consider the question settled, and the headspace excellent.
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Exactly what I was thinking. The problem was with the sized brass, not the gun.

Normally, full-length sizing will start out with the die touching the shellholder. This is the maximum amount the shoulder can be moved back. The normal way to set shoulders back a specific amount is to keep adjusting the sizing die up, which means it is no longer touching the shellholder at the top of the stroke. I prefer to use the Redding competition shellholders instead, they come as a set with each in 0.002" increments. You want 0.002" less bump, then go up to the next size. They go all the way up to 0.010" over a standard shellholder.

I have checked the shoulder setback, and headspacing in all my .223/5.56 guns, and I have settled on the 0.006" shellholder for all my sizing in that caliber.
 
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KnotRight said:
MDof2, today I went to the range with factory rounds and some older reloads and shot 11 times (6 @ 300 yards and 5 @500 yards) at 20" steel and had 11 hits. Then measured the head space and they were all real close to each other. About .00075 apart if my math is right. To get any more precise I would need to buy the RCBS precision gauge. Not intersted in doing that right now.
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Well, that's good then. So the gun is safe/no issues, nothing doing damage, or potential.
Next things I'd eliminate would be the old brass or your reloading method/equipment.
For the sake of argument, chuck the old brass you've had issues with for the moment. I'd probably take those 10 rounds you just fired, FL resize them, load, and shoot / remeasure.
Probably not a bad idea to first take the dies apart, clean, lube as per the mfg recommendations. Then reload with a known / proven recipe. 44g of Varget under a SMK 168g HPBT to 2.80" COL.
One of the two variables should show up in the reloading / brass.

Be safe!
 
And I didn't mean to sound like a dick earlier. I was just surprised at how much spaghetti was getting thrown against the wall, and if you did in fact have a head-space issue, I've seen first hand blowned up digits from people who kept pulling the trigger!
So my apologies.
 
I used to load 308. After a long day in the loading room I told GoodWife I was having a terrible time with various ball powders. She suggested an air conditioner.
 
I had the same problem with some .35 Remington brass I purchased from a guy that converts .308 brass to .35 Remington brass. He pushed the should back to much. At the time there was no new .35 Remington brass to be found anywhere so after some reading on the cast bullet forum and finding a fix I purchased some cheaper .35 Remington powder coated cast bullets and backed the load down. I seated the bullets long so that they seated into the lands in order to force the case head flush against the bolt face. This reformed the brass to the rifles chamber and it work very well and I was able to save all the brass. This brass was loaded with 180 grain Speer soft-points and this rifle is a tack driver. I have since purchased some new brass from the Hornady but am still using the old brass.

I have the Hornady Lock-N-Load cartridge head space gauge kit and an RCBS precision MIC so I was able to figure out what was wrong pretty quickly just wasn't sure how to correct it.

Since it's.308 I would pull the bullets and powder and throw the brass away since .308 is so easy to get.
 
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