About to buy first can, do I NEED a trust?

mhuxtable

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Hey I'm about to buy my first can via The Silencer Shop & their kiosk system as I have a dealer close by. Do I NEED a trust or can I just do this as an individual (Wake County)
 
Either way works fine. There are benefits of both. My last cans were as an individual, the transfer before was on a trust.
 
You don’t need one. But I don’t see any reason not to use one.

- both individuals and entities can now use EForms (Form 1 available now, not Form 4)
- ability to add other RPs after the fact without needing prints and photos
- basically the same paperwork for an individual as a one-RP entity, it’s just split between two forms
- some privacy advantages during probate for a trust
- other people can be in possession of the NFA items if they’re RPs

One sales pitch trust lawyers used to use was that the ATF would confiscate items if an individual died...but that’s not true. They transfer tax-free to the legal heir using a Form 5.
 
Good to know. Since my fiancé will also have access to this HD weapon that will house the suppressor I suppose a trust is the way to go


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The items in the trust do not go into probate vs not using a trust when the owner passes and the Estate has to settle property.
 
Let me ask this:

Would it be easier/more beneficial to set up the trust with just myself, purchase the item & during the wait, add a RP or add the RP before hand before I purchase anything?
 
Here’s my take. If it’s your fiancé, and they’re in the same house (now, or in the near future)...and they have no problem taking prints and photos....then add them now.

You can do the photos yourself and the prints yourself. So it’s not inconvenient or costly to have to do both of you.

That way you avoid having to remove them and add them back, over and over and over.

Or you could also do the one item per trust...and just have yourself during the application process and add them later. Just duplicate the trust with a slightly different name each time.
 
Here’s my take. If it’s your fiancé, and they’re in the same house (now, or in the near future)...and they have no problem taking prints and photos....then add them now.

You can do the photos yourself and the prints yourself. So it’s not inconvenient or costly to have to do both of you.

That way you avoid having to remove them and add them back, over and over and over.

Or you could also do the one item per trust...and just have yourself during the application process and add them later. Just duplicate the trust with a slightly different name each time.

yeah she's my fiance. I guess I'll do the trust when she gets back in town from work. I was gonna do it this week while she's gone to get the process started but I guess I'll just wait. I was gonna do it all through the Silencer Shop kiosk. Can you add RP via the kiosk?
 
...and if she’s on it from the beginning, you won’t have to send in a copy of the trust whenever you submit within 24 months of an approval.

Don’t know the answer to the SS questions. Haven’t had the need to use their services since the kiosk came to be.
 
I have individual & trust items.lately I hear chatter that unless a item is a line item on a last will....it (could/might) be subject to be confiscated.

I added a sheet with all my forms stating that upon my departure from this world the atf should get screwed cause the personal items are to be transferred to the trust and there is a paper trail for all that.....
 
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ability to add other RPs after the fact without needing prints and photos
What's an RP?

Is it correct that if I've an older trust with my family members on it, I cannot add a NFA item without everyone's prints and photos sent in with the form 4?

If I send in a new form 4 with a new trust with just my name, prints and pic, once the stamp arrives, I can add my wife to that trust without the prints & pic?
 
1. What's an RP?

2. Is it correct that if I've an older trust with my family members on it, I cannot add a NFA item without everyone's prints and photos sent in with the form 4?

3. If I send in a new form 4 with a new trust with just my name, prints and pic, once the stamp arrives, I can add my wife to that trust without the prints & pic?
1. Responsible Person

2. Depends if they qualify as RPs. In general, a trustee does but a beneficiary doesn’t. You could temporarily remove them, submit, then add them back...or just submit prints, photos and an RPQ (5320.23) for each of them.

3. Yes
 
Definition of RP from a Form 4:

Section A.
Responsible Person. In the case of an unlicensed entity, including any trust, partnership, association, company (including any Limited Liability Company (LLC)), or corporation, any individual who possesses, directly or indirectly, the power or authority to direct the management and policies of the trust or entity to receive, possess, ship, transport, deliver, transfer or otherwise dispose of a firearm for, or on behalf of, the trust or legal entity.

Section B.
Trust: Those persons with the power or authority to direct the management and policies of the trust includes any person who has the capability to exercise such power and possesses, directly or indirectly, the power or authority under any trust instrument, or under State law, to receive, possess, ship, transport, deliver, transfer, or otherwise dispose of a firearm for, or on behalf of the trust. Examples of who may be considered a responsible person include settlors/grantors, trustees, partners, members, officers, directors, board members, or owners. An example of who may be excluded from this definition of responsible person is the beneficiary of a trust, if the beneficiary does not have the capability to exercise the enumerated powers or authorities.
 
If I send in a new form 4 with a new trust with just my name, prints and pic, once the stamp arrives, I can add my wife to that trust without the prints & pic?

Yes and no...
yes, you can.
no, you can't remove-then-add people just because you want to bypass the required background check.
Also, if you're changing responsible persons WHILE you're waiting on a stamp, you're supposed to notify the feds that the trust has changed and then submit new paperwork so they have current info.
 
Some people make a new trust for each item, and after approval can update the trustees as needed.
 
...you're supposed to notify the feds that the trust has changed and then submit new paperwork so they have current info.
Says who?

You sign a Certification on the F1/F4 stating everything is true. At that time it is, as you’re the only RP. If you add one during the process, there’s nothing to do unless it was a Form 4 through a dealer and the new RP is going to handle the 4473. At that final transfer, they will simply have a NICS check run instead of being an Exception.

Straight from the 4473:

Questions 20 and 21. NICS Exceptions: A NICS check is not required if the transfer qualifies for any of the exceptions in 27 CFR 478.102(d). Generally these include: (a) transfers of National Firearms Act firearms to an individual who has undergone a background check during the NFA approval process; (b) transfers where the transferee/buyer has presented the licensee with a permit or license that allows the transferee/buyer to possess, acquire, or carry a firearm, and the permit has been recognized by ATF as a valid alternative to the NICS check requirement; or (c) transfers certified by ATF as exempt because compliance with the NICS check requirements is impracticable. If the transfer qualifies for one of these exceptions, the licensee must obtain the documentation required by 27 CFR 478.131. A firearm must not be transferred to any transferee/buyer who fails to provide such documentation.

A NICS check must be conducted if an NFA firearm has been approved for transfer to a trust, or to a legal entity such as a corporation, and no background check was conducted as part of the NFA approval process on the individual who will receive the firearm. Individuals who have undergone a background check during the NFA application process are listed on the approved NFA transfer form.
 
Well I"m a little more confused now so hopefully yall can dumb this down for me. If I want the least amount of paperwork/hassle but my fiance can still posses the suppressed gun without me around:

Do I need to set up the trust with me & her on it first thing & then buy the can?

Do I set up the trust, buy the can & then add her as an RP after the fact? Before I take possession? After?
 
Well I"m a little more confused now so hopefully yall can dumb this down for me. If I want the least amount of paperwork/hassle but my fiance can still posses the suppressed gun without me around:

Do I need to set up the trust with me & her on it first thing & then buy the can?

Do I set up the trust, buy the can & then add her as an RP after the fact? Before I take possession? After?
My answer hasn’t changed. First section of this post: https://www.carolinafirearmsforum.c...irst-can-do-i-need-a-trust.54982/#post-965272


In the long run, the least amount of headache is to have her on the trust from the beginning. If you add her after the first one, you’ll still have to do more work on the next one(s).

The only real reasons to do it another way are:
1. She refuses to have her prints/photos taken
2. The logistics of getting multiple signatures, photos, and prints are a headache due to physical location of RPs and/or handicaps
3. You’re trying to hide items from the other people involved

ETA: 4. In your case, if you think she’s going to grab the newly approved item and run away. :p
 
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My answer hasn’t changed. First section of this post: https://www.carolinafirearmsforum.c...irst-can-do-i-need-a-trust.54982/#post-965272


In the long run, the least amount of headache is to have her on the trust from the beginning. If you add her after the first one, you’ll still have to do more work on the next one(s).

The only real reasons to do it another way are:
1. She refuses to have her prints/photos taken
2. The logistics of getting multiple signatures, photos, and prints are a headache due to physical location of RPs and/or handicaps
3. You’re trying to hide items from the other people involved

ETA: 4. In your case, if you think she’s going to grab the newly approved item and run away. :p
#2's my concern. I've a trust with the family and multiple items from before the photo/print requirements, getting prints & pics from them will be a challenge. I may do a separate trust for just me for the next can.
 
#2's my concern. I've a trust with the family and multiple items from before the photo/print requirements, getting prints & pics from them will be a challenge. I may do a separate trust for just me for the next can.
Do you ever get together? You could have blank cards and a fingerprint pad and fill up a couple cards. I’ve never tried it, but lots of people have scanned those in and print their own when needed. Photos are digital and shouldn’t be an issue.

The bigger problem would probably be signatures.


I have a pre-41F trust with most of my items (probably 75%?), which has my wife and a close friend as RPs. I created a new one with just me and it has everything since then. At some point, I’ll add somebody else and start over. Just haven’t had that news, yet. My son is 13, and when he gets 18 I’ll probably add him...as he’s only a beneficiary at this point.
 
Do you ever get together? You could have blank cards and a fingerprint pad and fill up a couple cards. I’ve never tried it, but lots of people have scanned those in and print their own when needed. Photos are digital and shouldn’t be an issue.
The bigger problem would probably be signatures.
I have a pre-41F trust with most of my items (probably 75%?), which has my wife and a close friend as RPs. I created a new one with just me and it has everything since then. At some point, I’ll add somebody else and start over. Just haven’t had that news, yet. My son is 13, and when he gets 18 I’ll probably add him...as he’s only a beneficiary at this point.
Do you have suggestion for a trust? I've a Word doc I got from a Wake Sheriff I had a lawyer go over, I've just filled it in with new info and dates.
 
Do you have suggestion for a trust? I've a Word doc I got from a Wake Sheriff I had a lawyer go over, I've just filled it in with new info and dates.
My current one is from www.thetrustshop.net, and has been very easy to use. Forms are online.

What I haven’t done yet (and really need to) is create an amendment to add and one to remove a trustee. Then just not sign it. That way I’ll have a template to use if they ever go out of business.
 
Do you ever get together? You could have blank cards and a fingerprint pad and fill up a couple cards. I’ve never tried it, but lots of people have scanned those in and print their own when needed. Photos are digital and shouldn’t be an issue.

The bigger problem would probably be signatures.


I have a pre-41F trust with most of my items (probably 75%?), which has my wife and a close friend as RPs. I created a new one with just me and it has everything since then. At some point, I’ll add somebody else and start over. Just haven’t had that news, yet. My son is 13, and when he gets 18 I’ll probably add him...as he’s only a beneficiary at this point.

Do beneficiaries not legally have access to the items without supervision?
 
Do beneficiaries not legally have access to the items without supervision?
That’s the case in most instances. All depends on how the trust is written.
 
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