Balance of Cost-Reliability-Quality?

9outof10mms

9outof10mms

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If one were looking for an inexpensive, reliable-enough, and acceptable quality, what are the leading brands models of AR's today? This person isn't looking to run 1,000's of rounds through the gun--just a few hundred every once in a while to keep some friend's/family members up to speed on putting lead on target at the range. The rest of the time, this/these rifles would see a lot of dark safe time. But when/if needed, it'll go bang without fear of a cheap part failing and rendering the gun useless.

What are your suggestions for the "buy 'em cheap, stack 'em deep" category? No frills--just good ol' solid base rifles.

If that's too wide of a question: what are a few must-have critical features/specs to look for?

I'm talking in the sub-$1,000 market...maybe even the sub $500 market (if such a creature exists that meets the above descriptions).
 
I know this will draw out the haters, but there's PSA and then there's everyone else in the value category.

The stated goal of PSA's owner is to get a rifle in everyone's hands in America. They are probably single-handedly reponsible for a good % of that goal already being attained.

I would suggest starting out with a milspec carbine and then improving from that spec. A good value milspec 16" carbine without optics and maybe with a pop-up rear and fixed front sight should be under the $500 mark. You cannot go wrong with an M&P Sport II, a Delton, the various Aero OEM rifles, etc.
 
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Delton. Besides changing the handguards to a free float system and adding a BAD lever and bigger charging handle I have run literally thousands of rounds through 2 base model Deltons without one single issue that wasn't related to ammo or a bad mag.

And you're in the sub $600 range, maybe even sub $500 in this market.
 
Ikarus1 said:
I know this will draw out the haters, but there's PSA and then there's everyone else in the value category.

The stated goal of PSA's owner is to get a rifle in everyone's hands in America. They are probably single-handedly reponsible for a good % of that goal already being attained.
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I don't hate PSA but I've seen more than a couple with major issues over the years that would make me look elsewhere if I had the choice.

I've seen crossthreaded barrel nuts, FSB.s that were canted and BCG's not properly staked as well as a few other issues. They have made it right for the people that I know that had the issue but it was one of those "Hey Chad, what the hell is wrong with this thing" deals because they weren't as familiar with the AR as I am.

Once I pointed out the issue and the contacted PSA they were able to get a replacement but it makes me wary.
 
Chdamn said:
I don't hate PSA but I've seen more than a couple with major issues over the years that would make me look elsewhere if I had the choice.

I've seen crossthreaded barrel nuts, FSB.s that were canted and BCG's not properly staked as well as a few other issues. They have made it right for the people that I know that had the issue but it was one of those "Hey Chad, what the hell is wrong with this thing" deals because they weren't as familiar with the AR as I am.

Once I pointed out the issue and the contacted PSA they were able to get a replacement but it makes me wary.
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Again, as many have pointed out before in threads like this, even Toyota and Honda has issues with QC when it sells multiple- million vehicles. Ruger AR556s have a reputation for a tight enough chamber that most of the first 2 years will not run steel cased ammo. At all. Enough to where I cannot recommend them at all, even though I am a staunch supporter of Ruger in general.
 
I was zeroing in on these brands already...specifically the M&Ps. I see the PSAs in their daily emails and they catch my eye. Having never dealt with them for anything other than ammo and mags, I'm a little nervous from the one-off reviews i hear of them. But I agree: if you deal in volume, you're gonna have a few random outliers.

Thanks for the input so far.
 
Ikarus1 said:
Again, as many have pointed out before in threads like this, even Toyota and Honda has issues with QC when it sells multiple- million vehicles. Ruger AR556s have a reputation for a tight enough chamber that most of the first 2 years will not run steel cased ammo. At all. Enough to where I cannot recommend them at all, even though I am a staunch supporter of Ruger in general.
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Not arguing the point, it just makes me wary yrmv. I haven't heard of or seen the same number of issues with Delton which is why it's my choice. And as I said PSA has always made it right.
 
Chdamn said:
Not arguing the point, it just makes me wary yrmv. I haven't heard of or seen the same number of issues with Delton which is why it's my choice. And as I said PSA has always made it right.
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Del-ton probably has 1/100th of the volume of PSA. Both good Carolinas-based value brands. I heard the stories about PSA before I started using them circa 2012, then I started buying their uppers, dismantling them, turning them into what I wanted or needed. They test fire the uppers, at least every one I have ever purchased complete, and that's probably about the extent of the QC goes on a completed upper. They've quit borrowing so much from FN and started building most of their stuff in house so I am sure there's some growing pains associated with that. I guess the asterisk will always be there when someone mentions them, versus a company just changing their name and selling a million barrels ala Moore Machine.
 
Smith and Wesson M&P-15's are well within your budget limit. I believe the two I bought ran just under and just over $500 at the times I bought them.

Never had a problem with either one.
 
Based on the extremely small sample size of just the handful of rifles I own, budget brands like PSA, Anderson, DPMS are good-to-go for light duty use. For the use you described I would go sub $500 on the gun and have some money left for an optic. BUT: I like to tinker, I have tools, and I bought spare parts and springs so if something cheap does break I can fix it quick and easy. If your friend can't do that there may be your reason to increase the budget.
 
I think my biggest problem with this debate in present time is the difference between "Value" and "Quality" is less than $200. I understand to some that is no small amount and as a percentage of cost it can be 40% more. But a $500 PSA vs a $700 Colt is a no brainer. Now step up to buying a gun slightly used or buying a new lower like a Colt from Brownells when they were $200 shipped or a BCM complete with furniture for $350 shipped and then your quality upper/bcg combo for $500-700 and you're almost certainly sub $1K for something that if well cared for will last you a life time, minus maybe a barrel swap, new gas tube, and some BCG maintenance if you shoot it a lot.

Again, with what I have discovered via my own experience and research, the only VALUE line to me is Aero. Colt has dipped into the Value pricing lately with OEM 1 and 2s for $600-700 and the Trooper for $750-900. But given the "if I had $X to spend on only 1 AR build to shoot and use for a long time" theory, I'd be monitoring the forums for the lower parts to build my own and then find a new or lightly used upper and be done with it.

People also assume they are going to keep them forever and only have 1 in 1 configuration. So my retort to those people who only want to buy a PSA is why not buy something for $200 more if you're going to keep it forever? And if you don't keep it forever, how will you distinguish the gun from the brand new $500 PSAs when you sell it? A Colt is likely going to move a lot quicker and a lot closer to retail cost than a PSA given bother are properly cared for. Same reason a damn used 4Runner or Tacoma is barely any cheaper than the new ones. THEY LAST FOREVER.
 
cool story. But the last 3 PSA's I've built with other's BCGs and rails have been nearly complete with optics for less than $500 due to outstanding deals on complete pistol lowers with braces attached and/or lowers with magpul furniture attached. While that $700 Colt won't come free-floated, or a rear sight attached and may or may not have Colt Expanse lower parts kits (see also the mixmaster colt thread on ARFCOM)
"Colt establishes a standard for their product. They outsource production (this varies with demand). The products are inspected by Colt, and either accepted or rejected. If the parts meet Colt's standards they're stuck in a parts bin and sent out on the production floor for ASSEMBLY.
Colt, just like everyone else ASSEMBLES ARs. They don't "manufacture" them in the altruistic sense. "

EVERY CULT HAS TO HAVE BELIEVERS
 
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Ikarus1 said:
cool story. But the last 3 PSA's I've built with other's BCGs and rails have been nearly complete with optics for less than $500 due to outstanding deals on complete pistol lowers with braces attached and/or lowers with magpul furniture attached. While that $700 Colt won't come free-floated, or a rear sight attached and may or may not have Colt Expanse lower parts kits (see also the mixmaster colt thread on ARFCOM)
"Colt establishes a standard for their product. They outsource production (this varies with demand). The products are inspected by Colt, and either accepted or rejected. If the parts meet Colt's standards they're stuck in a parts bin and sent out on the production floor for ASSEMBLY.
Colt, just like everyone else ASSEMBLES ARs. They don't "manufacture" them in the altruistic sense. "

EVERY CULT HAS TO HAVE BELIEVERS
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When your PSAs start going to war and dying for our country, then I'll buy a parts bin gun from them. I've had PSA guns including the older CHF FN barreled guns and they ran like a top. The point of the matter is things look different in 2018 and most importantly, have different costs as well.
 
I don't think you'll have any problems if you want a low cost rifle from S&W, Delton, or PSA. I know nutnfancy has a lot of detractors on the internet, but he shoots a lot more ammo than I do. He says the S&W's are good to go for the price.
 
Climberman said:
I don't think you'll have any problems if you want a low cost rifle from S&W, Delton, or PSA. I know nutnfancy has a lot of detractors on the internet, but he shoots a lot more ammo than I do. He says the S&W's are good to go for the price.
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Owned one and it was a really nice gun. Hate I sold it because I was in it for just over $500 or so, no optic.
 
ok fair point. Guess you feel the same way about the SIG P320 then? Last I heard, FN made at least 50% of the M4s 'dying for our country'.

here's some 2018 costs:

complete Colt lower https://www.brownells.com/rifle-par...omplete-lower-receiver-5-56mm-prod109740.aspx
Comes with vaunted pony rollstamp, A2 grip and Colt-branded Rogers stock
$339 on sale
add a complete upper (which may or may not have a pony, a sighting system, or cool handguards) to meet your $700 price point

Or spend $80 more than the Colt branded lower (or $20 off sale) and get this:
https://www.brownells.com/firearms/...em-16-rifle-w-front-sight-base-prod94583.aspx
and have around $280 to spend on a rear sight (or dot), pistol grip of choice and handguards

Granted, an Anderson isn't a Colt. But they claim 40% of their workforce are veterans. SO there's that for 'Murica factor.

Or the aforemention Aero OEM 20" rifle.
https://www.brownells.com/firearms/rifles/semi-auto/ar-15-oem-a4-rifle-5-56x45-20--prod105391.aspx

for another $150 over the Anderson, you get an A2 grip, the Aero A rollstamp, a 20" barrel, and a non-milspec, non-CL nitride (QPQ) barrel. Add a stock and rifle handguards of choice and you'll
still have close to $150 to add a rear sight or a cheap RDS.

To me, a non-rollstamp worshipper of dancing ponies, 2 penii touching (Spike's) or someone's AR-du-jour, it's a no brainer. I wouldn't overpay for an FN rollstamped MILSPEC AR either.

Most AR companies nowadays have heavily invested in CNC machinery and knowledgeable machinists. It's basically a button-pushing and QC affair nowadays.
 
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Ikarus1 said:
cool story. But the last 3 PSA's I've built with other's BCGs and rails have been nearly complete with optics for less than $500 due to outstanding deals on complete pistol lowers with braces attached and/or lowers with magpul furniture attached. While that $700 Colt won't come free-floated, or a rear sight attached and may or may not have Colt Expanse lower parts kits (see also the mixmaster colt thread on ARFCOM)
"Colt establishes a standard for their product. They outsource production (this varies with demand). The products are inspected by Colt, and either accepted or rejected. If the parts meet Colt's standards they're stuck in a parts bin and sent out on the production floor for ASSEMBLY.
Colt, just like everyone else ASSEMBLES ARs. They don't "manufacture" them in the altruistic sense. "

EVERY CULT HAS TO HAVE BELIEVERS
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I am a 6920 man, at the price they are selling for now. It's not a cult thing, it's a QA/QC thing. Why would I spend $200 less for a product that isn't a known quantity in the QA/QC department? Now if/when 6920s start going for $1,100 again, I will change my tune and just spend the extra $100, $150 for a BCM. Free-floated. Who cares? If it's important to you, yeah, get a different AR. Functionally unless you compete or hunt >500 yards, it won't make a difference (and even then, probably won't make a difference).

For value (sub-$700), I'd get a S&W M&P. I think they are the best AR under $750, but just my opinion.

Edited to say, this came out snarkier than I meant. It reads like I am being an ass, I am not trying to be.
 
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Chuckman said:
For value (sub-$700), I'd get a S&W M&P. I think they are the best AR under $750, but just my opinion.
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I was thinking this too, but I could be labeled an M&P fanboy. I wanted to make sure my rose-colored lenses were being kept in check. For the record: I may or may not currently own an M&P Sport. If I did own one, I'd say it runs perfectly and I've never had a problem with it. Ironically, the old Colt I used to own would occasionally turn its nose up at steel cased commie ammo.
 
So QC/QA - let's discuss, because I don't want to be seen as a Colt basher, honestly I am not. Just like I am not a Remington basher, deep down. But those companies have similar history, and relatively close in proximity HQs. I think they make excellent mid-grade firearms (Colt, not Rem) and whose history is deep in firearms nostalgia, and just holding one makes the flag wave on a windless day.

I am assuming that Colt's QC dept is based in the Hartford, CT plant that has been there forever. The one mentioned in this article in 2012
http://www.policemag.com/blog/firea...12/07/how-colt-maintains-quality-control.aspx

It mentions how their machinery is a mix of new and old, with some of it dated back 100 years. The Stoner-Armalite-Colt design only dates back to the late 50s so let's assume some of that machinery is 50+ years old.
And some of the work force still surviving in the gun-and-weather unfriendly Northeast has nearly as much tenure and time in as the machinery (article mentions some had 43 years experience - 6 years ago)

How much QC is left at Colt? Just like Remington and their aging workforce, I have to question whether today's Colt is yesterday Colt AR-15 and if not, what makes it better than an Anderson with it's 40% Veteran workforce. Those pensions sure cost alot of money. Not to mention the cost of doing business in Assault Rifle Ban Land in CT. For my money, I don't want to subsidize either one for a company that has claimed bankruptcy multiple times.
 
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@Ikarus1 , the machinery is part of it, of course; so is the workforce. The other part is the set quality standard, six sigma-type of thing. Sure, it's down to the individual part, which is often farmed out to given specs and tolerances. But look at the spreadsheet of how many sigmas (standard deviations) they allow. That is, when they have one lemon out of 1,000 (or whatever is allowed), how is that standard set against the other competitors (if they even have those standards)? Colt, and others, produce fewer lemons than many.

In full disclosure, I don't know what the lemon rate is for Del-ton, PSA, or some of the others. I would be interesting to see objective data. I do know that in a couple classes I have seen more than one Del-ton and Bushmaster crap the bed. Really can't speak to the other brands.
 
Chuckman said:
@Ikarus1 , the machinery is part of it, of course; so is the workforce. The other part is the set quality standard, six sigma-type of thing. Sure, it's down to the individual part, which is often farmed out to given specs and tolerances. But look at the spreadsheet of how many sigmas (standard deviations) they allow. That is, when they have one lemon out of 1,000 (or whatever is allowed), how is that standard set against the other competitors (if they even have those standards)? Colt, and others, produce fewer lemons than many.

In full disclosure, I don't know what the lemon rate is for Del-ton, PSA, or some of the others. I would be interesting to see objective data. I do know that in a couple classes I have seen more than one Del-ton and Bushmaster crap the bed. Really can't speak to the other brands.
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OK. I mean if it's the workforce, it all comes down to how many septuagenarians that remain at Colt, their knowledge of the product, whether they're good teachers, and whether they are being replaced as fast they claim their pensions and retirement. I know how it's worked out for Remington so far - they're bankrupt, and have no .mil contracts that I know of (except maybe for KAC and Bushmaster)

Individual parts on an AR are a set spec of diagrams, materials and measurements, which in any CNC machine, can be reproduced perfectly. Thanks Mr Milspec! They can be improved also (nitride is clearly superior to chrome lining and costs less/affects accuracy less).
When they held the Stoner design and patent, things were different. Most of the AR companies that are in the low cost, high quality arena are former Aerospace tech companies which should have similar if not better standards than a firearms only company.

As fast as Aero Precision keeps gobbling up companies like VG6, BA, AXTS/Radian, the future of government issued milspec M4s might just be made in Tacoma.
 
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@Ikarus1 , I agree with you. I think new technology, especially in the manufacturing sector, can end up making a better product cheaper. I admit I don't know anything about Aero Products, I've not seen them in too many classes, and I've not shot more than a hundred rounds out of one at any time, so I am in no position to comment.

Where Aero might be the future, some of those Legacy corporations like Bushmaster and DMPS and some of the others may end up going to way the dinosaur.

For whatever reason, the Colt 6920 until recently has been the standard by which all M4 style ARs are compared. That too may change, especially now that HK is getting a significant share of the military and law enforcement Market.
 
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Chuckman said:
@Ikarus1 , I agree with you. I think new technology, especially in the manufacturing sector, can end up making a better product cheaper. I admit I don't know anything about Aero Products, I've not seen them in too many classes, and I've not shot more than a hundred rounds out of one at any time, so I am in no position to comment.

Where Aero might be the future, some of those Legacy corporations like Bushmaster and DMPS and some of the others may end up going to way the dinosaur.
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Just remember, Bushmaster of today isn't the Bushmaster of yesteryear. Windham Weaponry is....the Bushmaster of old.
 
How much is a 6920 these days? I really have no idea.

If it is over $900, I can't see paying it. Not when S&W's are so much less. I agree that the 6920 was a standard that AR's were measured up against but technology has changed and the competition has improved. I certainly considered them for my first AR. Today, there are way more companies in the AR game producing a quality product and fighting for your dollars.
 
There is a little company here in NC that builds a damn good AR and brought a basic carbine to the market that to me is a balance of those 3 ...

The Barnes Precision Machine Basic Patrol Carbine ...
BPM/BPC ( Basic Patrol Carbine ) .223/556

MSRP: $749.95

- M4 stock /A2 grip /PSFFRS Handguard available in standard black or FDE .
- 16" 4150 CM Barrel Nitro Met Processed 1-7 twist .223 Wylde Chamber
- BPM A2 Style Flash Hider / Breaching Tip.
- Exceptional Quality -Commercial grade /semi auto AR15 Fire Control group.
- BPM Bolt Carrier Group w/Nickel Boron coating.

Technical Specs:

- Mil Spec 7075 forged upper/lower.
- Upper receiver, lower receiver and handguard hard anodized to Mil Spec Type III specifications.
- All BPM Inc. lowers feature adjustable tension screw and detent retention set screw for rear takedown pin detent .
- Mid length gas system
- 16" 1-7 twist 4150 Chrome Moly steel barrel blanks CNC machined in house using 5.56 NATO chambers, ,with Nitro Met .
- BPM Inc. PSFFRS Ultra-lite Extreme 12.5" Handguard complete with quick detach sling swivel inserts. (FDE Cerakote option available ) - Rifle ships without magazine /flip up sights /rail sections / in brown cardboard shipping box.

The MSRP $750 which is maybe $250 over a PSA, Delton, MP Sport or such ... BUT you get a better barrel (these will hold 1 MOA with match ammo), very nice free floated rail and a premium NiB bolt carrier group which more than makes up the $250. If I was going to buy and stash away a little no frills cache of ARs I’d put a few of these back.

ETA ... the LGS that I think deals best with BPM is in Apex, NC and has them priced at $730 ($710 if you pay cash to save the 3% CC fee). Heck, if you buy a couple he might even give a little better price ... http://www.trianglegunvault.com/new...qb-556223-basic-carbine-16-223-wylde-33844608
 
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In my oh humble opinion:

PSA if you want to build one and have fun tinkering around and playing legos.

SW Sport II or Ruger if you want an out of the box shooter


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
These days, knowing what I know about AR rifles, the best value for the money is Aero Precision's mid-length rifle:
https://www.brownells.com/firearms/rifles/semi-auto/ac-15-5-56x45mm-nato-16-mid-length-rifle-prod82606.aspx?avs|Manufacturer_1=AERO+PRECISION
It's got all the right specs and is the closest thing you can get to a Colt or BCM for under $700.

If you're willing to spend just a little more, then take a look at either the Spikes Tactical ST-15 or Colt 6920 which are two guns under 1k I would definitely trust with my life.
https://www.aimsurplus.com/product....5.56/.223+16+in.+Midlength+Rifle&groupid=8038

http://www.gandrtactical.com/Colt-LE6920_p_235.html
 
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Mil spec is mil spec nor ammo wrong. I have a colt I have PSA 's I haven't had problems with any of them.
 
I'd buy a Sionics before I bought a BPM.

I know it seems like a running joke, but I'll redact my CC info on the invoice tomorrow and post mine for my $609 shipped Colt LE6920 OEM1. And my $199 shipped Colt Lower from Brownells, of which there is an entire thread on M4C. Mine came with LE serial number and the Pony roll mark extra crispy.

Ikarus your pricing today is not indicative of the highs and lows of the last 6 months, so don't portray it to be.
 
Good thing my Colt lower was bought in January. But I was wrong on the price...



...it was $189.99 shipped.


And the Parkland shooting had nothing to do with the pricing I observed because the Troopers were sold out before then and the OEM 1s and 2s were as well. There hasn't been a spike in pricing because their hasn't been supply.
 
Ikarus1 said:
Nope. Just post Parkland shooting 2018 pricing. 6 months ago ARs were stagnant, and it wasn't 2018
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But you keep arguing semantics and I'll continue to post data and facts. Check my post history here and others can chime in, I've got a finger or two on the pulse of pricing and availability the last 12 months or so.
 
JRHorne said:
But you keep arguing semantics and I'll continue to post data and facts. Check my post history here and others can chime in, I've got a finger or two on the pulse of pricing and availability the last 12 months or so.
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Post a link to your $600 6920 and sub $200 Colt lower pulse man

I posted what you can buy them for today not some arbitrary conjuring up of some past deal
 
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To the OP, I settled on a M&P for my first AR15, although I did go for the piston version. Only have a few thousand rounds through it, but it runs great and I’ve been surprised at how clean it stays. Didn’t like the quad rail so replaced it with a plastic mag pull drop in that I also don’t like. Added an ACOG, have a SSA-E trigger to install and will probably free float the barrel one of these days.

Someday I’ll probably buy or build an expensive AR, but not until I can appreciate what I get for the money.
 
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