Billet vs forged: affect on accuracy on SPR

Gear Head

Gear Head

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I ordered a White Oak Armament 223 Wylde SPR barrel and am trying to decide on the rest of my parts.

From what I've read forged is stronger but billet is more rigid and rigidity = accuracy. The other argument for billet is tighter tolerances allowing for a better fit between the upper and the barrel extension.

Can anyone speak on this or have first hand experience?
 
If you are installing a drop in trigger and have no desire for ambi controls then forged is fine.
Spend the $ on barrel and trigger.

If you plan to install a traditional pin style trigger such as the Giselle Super match, then Billet is a safer bet as the tolerances are normally better, and the trigger geometry will benefit.

Fwiw, Mega makes a VERY nice full ambi lower that has a machined in bolt release on the right side. Very handy off a bench.
 
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I'll be running the WOA 18" 1:7 spr barrel, I have a SSA-E sitting in the safe, and a box of 77 smk's on the bench.

I have no desire for ambi on this rifle so if barrel trigger and bullet are most important I'm guessing I could get away with just an aero upper and lower? I have a nice battle rifle style build using a noveske lower and vltor upper that I could steal parts from but I'd rather not because it's a solid good shooting build.
 
Gear Head said:
I'll be running the WOA 18" 1:7 spr barrel, I have a SSA-E sitting in the safe, and a box of 77 smk's on the bench.

I have no desire for ambi on this rifle so if barrel trigger and bullet are most important I'm guessing I could get away with just an aero upper and lower? I have a nice battle rifle style build using a noveske lower and vltor upper that I could steal parts from but I'd rather not because it's a solid good shooting build.
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Barrel and Trigger are important. Of course finding the best load for your set up will improve accuracy. But everyone here has missed the bolt. Accuracy will be impacted by headspace and how the fit of the bolt to the chamber is made. For best accuracy you want a barrel and bolt that are mated to each other, that is the bolt used to set up headspace and final machining of the chamber is the same bolt you use when you shoot it.
 
Gear Head said:
I'll be running the WOA 18" 1:7 spr barrel, I have a SSA-E sitting in the safe, and a box of 77 smk's on the bench.

I have no desire for ambi on this rifle so if barrel trigger and bullet are most important I'm guessing I could get away with just an aero upper and lower? I have a nice battle rifle style build using a noveske lower and vltor upper that I could steal parts from but I'd rather not because it's a solid good shooting build.
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Yes. Remember, the receivers in the military SPRs are from parts guns, just run of the mill receivers. With that barrel and trigger and load, you will achieve any accuracy you are looking for.
 
TSConver said:
Barrel and Trigger are important. Of course finding the best load for your set up will improve accuracy. But everyone here has missed the bolt. Accuracy will be impacted by headspace and how the fit of the bolt to the chamber is made. For best accuracy you want a barrel and bolt that are mated to each other, that is the bolt used to set up headspace and final machining of the chamber is the same bolt you use when you shoot it.
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Bolt and bcg was my next question since we are on the topic of accuracy. I agree that's definitely the way to go but if I were to dive in that deep I believe I'd just go bolt gun. While I am after accuracy on this build I'm just looking to get the most I can out of quality drop in parts.
 
Gear Head said:
Bolt and bcg was my next question since we are on the topic of accuracy. I agree that's definitely the way to go but if I were to dive in that deep I believe I'd just go bolt gun. While I am after accuracy on this build I'm just looking to get the most I can out of quality drop in parts.
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No argument that a matched bolt will eek out the last drops of accuracy, the lack of it and using drop-in will still often outperform 99% of shooters. I am no sniper, but I have been to a couple precision shooting schools/classes, and I don't know that I can tell a qualitative difference in having a matched bolt versus non.

I am legit curious if more serious/better shooters with the AR platform can tell a difference.

Edited to add, I am tagging @JBoyette , he has as much practical experience with the SPR/precision AR as anyone I know. he may have some good insight.
 
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Your trigger is a traditional non drop in design. (SSA-E).
That fact alone (to me) would justify the Billet lower.
My opinion is based off installing multiple Giselle triggers in multiple mid to low quality forged lowers and being dissapointed with the results each time.

Gear Head said:
I'll be running the WOA 18" 1:7 spr barrel, I have a SSA-E sitting in the safe, and a box of 77 smk's on the bench.

I have no desire for ambi on this rifle so if barrel trigger and bullet are most important I'm guessing I could get away with just an aero upper and lower? I have a nice battle rifle style build using a noveske lower and vltor upper that I could steal parts from but I'd rather not because it's a solid good shooting build.
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Thinking of the man I know of who is an experienced gunsmith and accuracy guru: he told me the receiver is as important as anything else and that tight fitting, etc. is super critical for accuracy.

But I always see people saying it doesn't matter. Does the receiver on a bolt gun matter for accuracy? It would seem that it matters greatly, no?

Maybe splitting hairs, but that is what accuracy is: splitting hairs.
 
NKD said:
Thinking of the man I know of who is an experienced gunsmith and accuracy guru: he told me the receiver is as important as anything else and that tight fitting, etc. is super critical for accuracy.

But I always see people saying it doesn't matter. Does the receiver on a bolt gun matter for accuracy? It would seem that it matters greatly, no?

Maybe splitting hairs, but that is what accuracy is: splitting hairs.
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I’m sure once you have the major components of accuracy nailed down, you can work on fine tuning everything but at what point, to the average shooter, is it a decreasing return (on time, performance and money)? To really test the difference, you’d need identical set ups save for the variable part, lead sleds, identical lot of ammo, etc. The cost to prove the point, which might be minuscule, will be the exact opposite. I didn’t buy a match paired receiver set (they are forged Rainier parts) but I bought an Ultramatch/Shilen barrel, a Geissele SSA-E, and a match BCG, and my rifle does this all day long:

5rds 100yds load testing
ryzaQ3c.jpg


hydSLrv.jpg
 
11B CIB said:
I’m sure once you have the major components of accuracy nailed down, you can work on fine tuning everything but at what point, to the average shooter, is it a decreasing return (on time, performance and money)? To really test the difference, you’d need identical set ups save for the variable part, lead sleds, identical lot of ammo, etc. The cost to prove the point, which might be minuscule, will be the exact opposite. I didn’t buy a match paired receiver set (they are forged Rainier parts) but I bought an Ultramatch/Shilen barrel, a Geissele SSA-E, and a match BCG, and my rifle does this all day long:

5rds 100yds load testing
ryzaQ3c.jpg


hydSLrv.jpg
Click to expand...

That is a rifle with high quality parts that looks to have gone together well.
My point is that group might not look like that with a sub par upper. Or sub par fitting of it.

It might look completely different. And, when speaking about wether or not, say....a Barrel, is more or less accurate, then using the "average shooter" as a barometer we might as well throw out the whole discussion.
Because an average shooter likely couldn't wring all the accuracy out of a bone stock 10/22.

My question/comment is directed at this question: Does the upper receiver matter in accuracy as much as the barrel and bolt?

If the question is: Does it matter to the "average shooter"? The answer is: none of the parts matter to the average shooter. A cheap MP15 is all they are going to need.

I agree the returns start to diminish, but diminishing returns are what precision shooting is all about. If it wasn't, everybody would just be using M&P sports and stock Remmy 700's.

Not an expert, far from it, just find it an interesting discussion.
 
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NKD said:
That is a rifle with high quality parts that looks to have gone together well.
My point is that group might not look like that with a sub par upper. Or sub par fitting of it.

It might look completely different. And, when speaking about wether or not, say....a Barrel, is more or less accurate, then using the "average shooter" as a barometer we might as well throw out the whole discussion.
Because an average shooter likely couldn't wring all the accuracy out of a bone stock 10/22.

My question/comment is directed at this question: Does the upper receiver matter in accuracy as much as the barrel and bolt?

If the question is: Does it matter to the "average shooter"? The answer is: none of the parts matter to the average shooter. A cheap MP15 is all they are going to need.

I agree the returns start to diminish, but diminishing returns are what precision shooting is all about. If it wasn't, everybody would just be using M&P sports and stock Remmy 700's.

Not an expert, far from it, just find it an interesting discussion.
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I guess there are several different groups of shooters. Assuming we are not talking about the person that buys a rifle just to have one, and it never sees the light of day.

An enthusiast shooter who is vying for accuracy but at the end of the day realizes limitations set by their wallet, ability, or lack of interest in anything more (or a combination of those), and professional or hardcore shooters who demand every bit of performance they can from the set up they are using, with no Stone unturned as far as tapping potential. And I’m sure there is a group in between those two as well, which is probably where I fall in, somewhere in the middle.

And I’m enjoying the discussion also, no hard feelings intended in any way shape or form
 
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Forge versus billet is not a big deal mostly just impacts fit between the lower and the upper. If you want to milk all the accuracy out of any upper one should chuck it in a lathe and square the threads where the barrel extension goes in and make sure the bore that the bcg slides in is smooth and straight so the bolt operates smoothly. I have seen many of these put in a lathe and none of them are perfectly square. Usually out by a thou or two at a minimum. Does not seem like much but will imnpact accuracy. Lots of little tricks you can do to get every bit of accuracy out that you can.

Another one is to remove the bolt catch. If you are shooting for accuracy and the bolt locks back on empty this will impact the accuracy of the last shot compared to the other shots. Different recial impulse.
 
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I see an SPR as an SPR; an accurate, mid-to-higher-range precision AR. You take almost any gun and add more and more parts to make it more and more accurate, but at what cost? (in terms of both $ and performance). If I wanted an uber-accurate AR platform rifle, I'd get a 20" SAM-R or 20" WOA match-grade and call it a day.

Being as the SPR is a military-issue/military-grade weapon, I always go to back to the intent or mission of the gun. Crane knocked out hundreds of SPRs with regular ol' receivers and bolts and BCGs, so if I wanted an SPR, that's what I would go for. But there is nothing wrong with changing out parts to eek out that much more accuracy, though I doubt I would benefit from it.
 
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11B CIB said:
I guess there are several different groups of shooters. Assuming we are not talking about the person that buys a rifle just to have one, and it never sees the light of day.

An enthusiast shooter who is vying for accuracy but at the end of the day realizes limitations set by their wallet, ability, or lack of interest in anything more (or a combination of those), and professional or hardcore shooters who demand every bit of performance they can from the set up they are using, with no Stone unturned as far as tapping potential. And I’m sure there is a group in between those two as well, which is probably where I fall in, somewhere in the middle.

And I’m enjoying the discussion also, no hard feelings intended in any way shape or form
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Yeah I probably fall about in the same spot. I buy a decent upper and decent barrel and that is going to be good enough for me and what I do.

Coming from a mild 10/22 addiction I had a few years back, I just found that there was a lot more to accuracy than just replacing a barrel (which is what most would do and tell others to do). The receiver, bolt face, chamber face, etc. were all equally important as a system.
 
Slacker said:
Your trigger is a traditional non drop in design. (SSA-E).
That fact alone (to me) would justify the Billet lower.
My opinion is based off installing multiple Giselle triggers in multiple mid to low quality forged lowers and being dissapointed with the results each time.
Click to expand...

And this is why I asked. I only have 1 ar and it is a billet upper and lower and everything fits beautifully. I've never messed with a forged receiver before.
 
Chuckman said:
I see an SPR as an SPR; an accurate, mid-to-higher-range precision AR. You take almost any gun and add more and more parts to make it more and more accurate, but at what cost? (in terms of both $ and performance). If I wanted an uber-accurate AR platform rifle, I'd get a 20" SAM-R or 20" WOA match-grade and call it a day.

Being as the SPR is a military-issue/military-grade weapon, I always to back to the intent or mission of the gun. Crane knocked out hundreds of SPRs with regular ol' receivers and bolts and BCGs, so if I wanted an SPR, that's what I would go for. But there is nothing wrong with changing out parts to eek out that much more accuracy, though I doubt I would benefit from it.
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Makes sense. I was looking at a 24" Rainer ultramatch barrel but decided to go the spr route as it can fill multiple rolls other than just a match bench gun. Accuracy from the WOA should be more than acceptable but I'd also be able to take Coyote hunting
 
11B CIB said:
I’m sure once you have the major components of accuracy nailed down, you can work on fine tuning everything but at what point, to the average shooter, is it a decreasing return (on time, performance and money)? To really test the difference, you’d need identical set ups save for the variable part, lead sleds, identical lot of ammo, etc. The cost to prove the point, which might be minuscule, will be the exact opposite. I didn’t buy a match paired receiver set (they are forged Rainier parts) but I bought an Ultramatch/Shilen barrel, a Geissele SSA-E, and a match BCG, and my rifle does this all day long:

5rds 100yds load testing
ryzaQ3c.jpg


hydSLrv.jpg
Click to expand...

What bcg did you go with?
 
Gear Head said:
And this is why I asked. I only have 1 ar and it is a billet upper and lower and everything fits beautifully. I've never messed with a forged receiver before.
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I have both. The right forged receiver can be just as pleasing, aesthetically and in terms of fit/function. My Rainier Arms forged lower has a tensioning screw to keep the upper and lower snug, removing what little slack was in there to begin with. I highly recommend RA

Gear Head said:
What bcg did you go with?
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Rainier Arms Precision Match -Nitrided

I have since upgraded that gas block to a Rainier adjustable. It is awesome

Cj0qyeb.jpg
 
I'll be that guy: what range and what level of accuracy? If you're striving for something crazy, why are you looking at the AR platform? The AR platform can be Uber accurate, but there is a point of diminishing returns. You may want to consider something like the Fix from Q.
 
JRHorne said:
I'll be that guy: what range and what level of accuracy? If you're striving for something crazy, why are you looking at the AR platform? The AR platform can be Uber accurate, but there is a point of diminishing returns. You may want to consider something like the Fix from Q.
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1/2-3/4 moa and I'll be happy. Would like to take it out to 1000yds but most shooting would be probably 600 and under. I plan on picking up a bolt gun as well to tinker with but I also like the idea of a accurate mid to long range ar hence the spr theme. Wanted to build one ever since I watched the build series that Long Range Shooters of Utah did on youtube.
 
I have a 16” AR that is built with the works. Noveske Gen2 lower, Vltor MUR upper, Noveske match SS barrel with matched bolt, Geiselle SSA-E, A5 system, etc etc. That rifle is my prize AR and I took my time researching parts and building it. It is an incredibly precise and repeatable tool.

That being said, my beater gun is an Aero upper and lower, BA Hansen 14.5” barrel, and controls that mirror the above-mentioned build b/c it’s what I’m used to. It shoots 95% as well as the other.

Point is, don’t use crap parts and you’ll have a well-built AR that will probably outshoot you for a long time.
 
I have always laughed at the forged vs billet comparisons.

Forged... liquid metal put into a mold under pressure..

Billet... a final product cut from a forged block of metal.

Most bars of metal are forged. Only difference is the machine work, not the material.
 
JRHorne said:
I'll be that guy: what range and what level of accuracy? If you're striving for something crazy, why are you looking at the AR platform? The AR platform can be Uber accurate, but there is a point of diminishing returns. You may want to consider something like the Fix from Q.
Click to expand...

Nothing in the shooting world is better at the funding of diminishing returns than precision bolt guns!

Edit: ask them shooters if the upper receiver is important!
 
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NKD said:
Nothing in the shooting world is better at the funding of diminishing returns than precision bolt guns!

Edit: ask them shooters if the upper receiver is important!
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We all know anything is possible with an unlimited budget! But I'd argue at the distances OP suggested, he is going to need a strong budget between the build and then trigger time.

I just want someone to buy The Fix from Q because it is one sexy beast.
 
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JRHorne said:
We all know anything is possible with an unlimited budget! But I'd argue at the distances OP suggested, he is going to need a strong budget between the build and then trigger time.

I just want someone to buy The Fix from Q because it is one sexy beast.
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I've got a good amount of trigger time on a cz455 shooting ragged holes at 50 yds, splitting playing cards at 50 yds, Clay's at 200 yds, ect. I like to think I have the fundamentals and that they will transfer over to a platform better suited to true longer ranges.

I ordered an aero m4e1 receiver set with LPK while they are still on sale for $149.99. I'm going to build off that and if I'm not satisfied I'll pick up another billet upper and lower and swap parts over.
 
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Gear Head said:
I've got a good amount of trigger time on a cz455 shooting ragged holes at 50 yds, splitting playing cards at 50 yds, Clay's at 200 yds, ect. I like to think I have the fundamentals and that they will transfer over to a platform better suited to true longer ranges.

I ordered an aero m4e1 receiver set with LPK while they are still on sale for $149.99. I'm going to build off that and if I'm not satisfied I'll pick up another billet upper and lower and swap parts over.
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Oh make no mistake, my post was not about your abilities or desires, more a note on where money should be placed to achieve what you're tying to achieve.

That Aero deal is really good right now.
 
The key to all of this is the following in order:

1. Crown
2. Clearance and free floating with no contact with the gas tube, gas block even when under load (bi-pods included)
3. Quality of blank barrel
4. Profile of contour
5. Proper chambering
6. Bolt of proper pressure and tolerance above and beyond headspacing
7. Proper gas port size

Next for the rest of the rifle.

Proper height optic mount
Quality trigger
Quality stock

Thats about it.
 
Well i might be going billet now anyways. Stopped by the pawn shop where I do my transfers and they have a complete noveske lower with a geissele 2 stage trigger, geissele buffer, bad lever, Magpul rubber grip, ambi safety, noveske stamped vltor upper, and a charging handle and stock. Said he'd do $600 on it...

1130171627.jpg
 
Well it was actually a forged noveske lower so not as great of a deal but still a deal nonetheless. It now resides in my safe anyways
 
My 18" 6.8SPC shoots under moa at 300 yards. Bison Armory complete 18" SPR upper & I'm assuming forged upper as it wasn't advertised as billet. That tells me I am the limiting factor in this gun's accuracy, not the gun. I'm not really sure how a billet receiver set is gonna improve on that.

Cool AF? No doubt. Does it eke out the last nth of a degree of performance? Most likely. Am I going to notice the difference? Probably not.
 
Yeah I realize I'm splitting hairs but I do find the thought interesting. Hopefully we will find out soon! WOA sold out of their spr barrel's on their black friday sale but I should be seeing mine in a week or so. Only part I have left to order is a rail, stock, and mount/rings. Gonna try 77 smk's over varget first
 
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Gear Head said:
Well i might be going billet now anyways. Stopped by the pawn shop where I do my transfers and they have a complete noveske lower with a geissele 2 stage trigger, geissele buffer, bad lever, Magpul rubber grip, ambi safety, noveske stamped vltor upper, and a charging handle and stock. Said he'd do $600 on it...

View attachment 31001
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That’s a gen1 lower, forged and much the same as quality lowers out there like Aero.

Still a very nice setup and not a bad price at all. I really like the MUR uppers.
 
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