Build or buy??
- Thread starter Chuckman
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I'm working on this very topic right now. I am trying to figure out what I want exactly. If I could buy it, that would be great. If I have to build, so be it. One question I have is, if you get someone to build, do they buy a starter rifle and chop it up or do they buy an action, a trigger, a barrel etc.
JustKeepSwimming
AKA dingleberry
2A Bourbon Hound 2024
2A Bourbon Hound OG
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I have always bought complete rifles but right now I am in the middle of my first build and I am really enjoying researching and purchasing the individual parts to customize it to my liking. I'm learning a lot that I didn't know before and with some build help/assistance from 11B CIB this rifle will definitely have a different "personal feel" to it once it is done.
It all comes down to end value and cost.
Take the EPR package I put together.
http://www.replacingluck.net/product-page/b92ffa21-47b5-504f-f9d8-1d4cf6781f37
Questions to ask yourself.
John
​
Take the EPR package I put together.
http://www.replacingluck.net/product-page/b92ffa21-47b5-504f-f9d8-1d4cf6781f37
Questions to ask yourself.
- Can you buy a better rifle? Yes you can
- Can you take my list and build the same package? Yes you can
- Can you beat the price for same branded items? No you can not
John
​
OP
Chuckman
Senior Member
Climberman;n85787 said:
So this is what I am thinking, looking at websites. Again, I am not in the market, but I like to play around on the interwebs. If you look at base prices, look up the individual components, you can see a pretty significant difference between the list of pieces and the final prices, which I assume is labor for truing, blueprinting, etc.
It looks like on the face of it it is better to buy a basic rifle, sell the stock and barrel to fund whatever, and keep the action.
OP
Chuckman
Senior Member
JBoyette;n85803 said:
Thanks for the input, John. You have three distinct perspectives: shooter, builder, instructor, so you see it uniquely. Playing around on different sites, and playing with a calculator, it does seem you can get the individual components far cheaper than buying the full rifle. But then the issue is, how proficient are you at building? It ain't like an AR; it seems you really need to know what you are doing.
SDIVER2006
SDIVER2006
I love building my own. It appeals to the geek in me
Would love to build an AR in 308 but I have neither the knowledge nor the tools to do so. Maybe my next AR I'll see if someone's willing to help me, would be nice to build it even if it's purely for aesthetic purposes. I'm a decent shot to the gun will likely out preform me anyway.
Woth that said, I don't know how complicated it is but would be really cool if someone would do an in depth write up of building an AR.
Also, not sure if it made its way here or not. But on previous forums, there was a thread of parts needed to build an AR broken down by upper/lower etc. just .02
Woth that said, I don't know how complicated it is but would be really cool if someone would do an in depth write up of building an AR.
Also, not sure if it made its way here or not. But on previous forums, there was a thread of parts needed to build an AR broken down by upper/lower etc. just .02
Chuckman;n85814 said:
I do not know if you can for the EPR brand item for brand item. If so I want to know how. I say that because if you are talking online My price total is less then MAP and thats way less then MSRP on each item. also factor in shipping costs of how many suppliers? and time.
OP
Chuckman
Senior Member
JBoyette;n85875 said:
Yeah, but you are on the inside of the industry, so of course you are in a position most mortals are not. When I sold tactical medical kits, my cost was a third of what the items sold for, so I get it.
I made my comment in general; i.e., $300 stock, $400 barrel, $250 trigger; get that as a complete rifle through a custom shop it would be $1,500, but I understand it's for the labor, lapping, blueprinting, etc.
I never built an AR, and I would not build a precision rifle. Just call me Franky 5 Thumbs. I was kicking out the question just to stimulate some feedback, see why someone would prefer to do one over the other.
Chuckman;n85896 said:
Got it.
Yeah I do not (build) bolt guns I put parts together. AR platforms are more built.
The other factor is TTB tax. Its 11% on rifles and shotguns and 10% on firearms from the manufacture to the ATF. So thats a cost thats embedded in the gun. this is why a built AR-15 lower and a built AR-15 upper is 11% cheaper then a AR-15 rifle of the same parts, also TTB is why you must have a 30 day separation between orders of that lower and upper from the same manufacture or they must add 11% to the cost.
John
Chuckman;n85901 said:
Different tools mostly.
Also you have alot of myth of how its done, what really matters and all that. The myth of the Ar-15 and accuracy was destroyed since 2013.
Bolt guns are different tools, but I would not say (harder) to work on.
AR - build, why not? It's easier the putting a diaper on a baby.
Bolt gun. I think I would buy. Sure it can be done but the tools are expensive. You could farm some of the more tedious operations out but then you really aren't "building" it then are you?
Bolt gun. I think I would buy. Sure it can be done but the tools are expensive. You could farm some of the more tedious operations out but then you really aren't "building" it then are you?
Bought my first AR, I just received the last parts to finish my first build today. I'll build every one from this point forward. I get the parts I want and I'm not buying a complete AR then replacing half the furniture ending with higher costs.
Bolt rifle, I bought and would likely buy a complete rifle again if I wanted another. However, I'm not a big long range shooter but only because I don't have a good place to shoot long range.
Bolt rifle, I bought and would likely buy a complete rifle again if I wanted another. However, I'm not a big long range shooter but only because I don't have a good place to shoot long range.
Cameronswmp9
Happy to be here
J.R.;n85831 said:
Where are you located? I'm sure someone local could assist you with that!
To the topic, for the AR I would build, it's easy and can peice together good parts, either for precision or for whatever the task at hand.
Bolt, I would buy. It's easier to change some parts, stock, bases, etc, and can be done to do !Ore, action, barrel, trigger, etc.
I build....but I believe that you can buy cheaper in the current market. I recently bought 4 upper/lower stripped combos because they were on sale at half off. I still can't build a
decent "basic carbine" for what I can buy one for...even though I got the platform at half price!
decent "basic carbine" for what I can buy one for...even though I got the platform at half price!
T
The Green Heron
Guest
First of all, let's clarify some terms(OK you knew I was gonna be an @$$h0/3 so why are you still reading?)
You aren't building an AR, you are assembling a tinker toy set for grown men, yeah I know I call all mine builds too, but I hate myself in the morning.
The answer to that question is very varied, or vary veried, I forget which. It really depends on the individual and what they plan to do with the rifle. Do you have any mechanical skill? I know they say any idiot can put one together, and that is technically true, but the question is, will it be better than what you can buy, frankly cheaper. Most people, would be better off just buying one.
A true precision rifle? IE. A bolt gun. Yeah I know you got the most awesome wiz bang gasser on the planet made by Black Dark Dirk Industries, guarznteed to shoot1/2 moa at 1200 yds all day long in the rain, and twice on Sunday. No. Bolt gun. I don't care who made your gasser, it is not by definition a precision rifle.
Depending on your skill level it could go either way. If you have shot a rifle a lot, and that means more than 3 deer and 15 squirrels a season, you might build one. It also depends greatly on your inherent skill, there is such a thing. I have seen people rapidly outgrow their equipment. When you are outshooting your equipment, you should build you a rifle. Not you build one, but find a good Smith to build one.
Just because it is built, doesn't mean it'll be a shooter. There are a lot of shady gun plumbers out there. Find one that doesn't mind to tell you every facet of his process. If they ever act like something is a secret patented voodoo....Run don't walk, you are about to be bull$#@+Ed. There are no gunsmithing secrets since the advent of the internet, there are only degrees of meticulity.
A build will only be as good as the components you put in, whether it's a gasser or precision rifle. If the barrel isn't the best that can be bought, nothing else will matter.
If you want me to expound on barrels I will, but it isn't a simple answer. I can splain why your cousin Billy Bob as a great shooting ER Shaw barrel, but that don't make them anywhere near match grade.
You aren't building an AR, you are assembling a tinker toy set for grown men, yeah I know I call all mine builds too, but I hate myself in the morning.
The answer to that question is very varied, or vary veried, I forget which. It really depends on the individual and what they plan to do with the rifle. Do you have any mechanical skill? I know they say any idiot can put one together, and that is technically true, but the question is, will it be better than what you can buy, frankly cheaper. Most people, would be better off just buying one.
A true precision rifle? IE. A bolt gun. Yeah I know you got the most awesome wiz bang gasser on the planet made by Black Dark Dirk Industries, guarznteed to shoot1/2 moa at 1200 yds all day long in the rain, and twice on Sunday. No. Bolt gun. I don't care who made your gasser, it is not by definition a precision rifle.
Depending on your skill level it could go either way. If you have shot a rifle a lot, and that means more than 3 deer and 15 squirrels a season, you might build one. It also depends greatly on your inherent skill, there is such a thing. I have seen people rapidly outgrow their equipment. When you are outshooting your equipment, you should build you a rifle. Not you build one, but find a good Smith to build one.
Just because it is built, doesn't mean it'll be a shooter. There are a lot of shady gun plumbers out there. Find one that doesn't mind to tell you every facet of his process. If they ever act like something is a secret patented voodoo....Run don't walk, you are about to be bull$#@+Ed. There are no gunsmithing secrets since the advent of the internet, there are only degrees of meticulity.
A build will only be as good as the components you put in, whether it's a gasser or precision rifle. If the barrel isn't the best that can be bought, nothing else will matter.
If you want me to expound on barrels I will, but it isn't a simple answer. I can splain why your cousin Billy Bob as a great shooting ER Shaw barrel, but that don't make them anywhere near match grade.
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Bolt gun I would probably buy a known decent performer then take it to a professional to square it up and have a close look at the parts that matter whatnot. Pendergraft most likely. Or somebody like Djstorm who has a clue and machinist skills.
But I have very little knowledge of these types of guns. I know enough to know I don't know enough!
But I have very little knowledge of these types of guns. I know enough to know I don't know enough!
OP
Chuckman
Senior Member
NKD;n86417 said:
I have a friend at Lejeune who is a 2112 (gun builder trained at Quantico), he maintains/rebuilds the precision rifles for some units at Lejeune. He has offered that if I wanted him to build a rifle, he would do so for the cost of the parts; if I already have a rifle, he would do the blueprinting/lapping/truing, etc., no charge. I think your point is key: to build, and not just assemble, having someone who is knowledgeable and has the tools is important.
But for me right now it's all academic.
fishgutzy
Senior Member
I'm guessing one could build a lefty AR-10 class with similar accessories to a Sig 716 for much less than the price of a production Sig716.
And with a longer barrel than one can get on a production rifle. Make it a nice multi-use rifle.
I may have to budget for that.
And with a longer barrel than one can get on a production rifle. Make it a nice multi-use rifle.
I may have to budget for that.
OP
Chuckman
Senior Member
fishgutzy;n86731 said:Cost plus a case of fine craft brew.
Yes, most definitely. I do not want to be an imposition. A case or fifth of his favorite would be the least I could do for $250-$450 of labor.
But, alas, as I said, it's academic ("wishful thinking").
Long range precision for what discipline?
Long range f-class competition out to say 1000? Would go with bolt action although I have some AR's that will shoot with the bolt guns. You are limited to a short action caliber with an AR10 lower. You can go with a long action caliber with a bolt gun.
Short range f-class competition out to say 600? Would still go with bolt action but there are lots of high masters that will clean your clock with an AR.
Long range bench rest competition? AR platforms cannot be used under the NBRA rules. No special class has been made yet for AR platforms unfortunately.
XTR competition? AR platform.
Long range hunting? Would still rather have a bolt gun.
Buy factory gun or have built?
There are some really good box rifles out there and you may luck out with a mid-range cost box rifle. You takes your chances. I've found that most people that shoot a mediocre box rifle usually end up with a receiver to be used for a new build.
Custom built rifles cost however much you want to pay. High cost doesn't mean quality so you have to choose your builder carefully.
Another option is to buy a proven used custom and shoot it till you have to rebarrel, which probably won't be too many rounds.
All the above is a mute point if you don't handload........................
Long range f-class competition out to say 1000? Would go with bolt action although I have some AR's that will shoot with the bolt guns. You are limited to a short action caliber with an AR10 lower. You can go with a long action caliber with a bolt gun.
Short range f-class competition out to say 600? Would still go with bolt action but there are lots of high masters that will clean your clock with an AR.
Long range bench rest competition? AR platforms cannot be used under the NBRA rules. No special class has been made yet for AR platforms unfortunately.
XTR competition? AR platform.
Long range hunting? Would still rather have a bolt gun.
Buy factory gun or have built?
There are some really good box rifles out there and you may luck out with a mid-range cost box rifle. You takes your chances. I've found that most people that shoot a mediocre box rifle usually end up with a receiver to be used for a new build.
Custom built rifles cost however much you want to pay. High cost doesn't mean quality so you have to choose your builder carefully.
Another option is to buy a proven used custom and shoot it till you have to rebarrel, which probably won't be too many rounds.
All the above is a mute point if you don't handload........................