CA bar shooting

Discussion in 'Firearms News and Views' started by HMP, Nov 8, 2018.

  1. wvsig

    wvsig Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2017
    Messages:
    1,288
    Likes Received:
    1,632
    Location:
    Rutherfordton, NC
    This is a great post. The scenario you first described would prompt me to act. If I got down and was not the first person to be shot I would draw and engage because at that point I have to assume I am next. I am in grave danger. My life is one the line at that point so acting gives me the best chance of surviving. At that point for me if I don't act I am simply waiting for my turn to die. It is time to deploy the weapon of last resort. It may or may not increase my actual chances of surviving but at that point I believe I would act. At the same time I understand that some people do not have the ability or will to fight. I do not think less of them or thing better of myself because I "think" I would act in that scenario.


    In the second run I think that there are reasons why people reacted as they did. I think the fact you knew it was coming and that it was a simulation greatly effected the way you and the other 2 guys who chose to fight.

    Many people are not "fighters" it is not in their DNA. They do not believe they have the skill or the will to fight. It does not make them weak or lessor human beings it is simply the way they are. Also you made an assumption that the exact same things would happen and that prompted you to attack. There is just as much of a chance that the scenario would go down differently. Everytime there is a robbery with a gun where people are instructed to "get on the ground" it does not end with the execution of all in the room. I don't know for sure but I would imagine the majority of the time when those words are uttered no one is shot. People get robbed but not executed. It is not unreasonable to believe the second run would end differently in the real world.

    It is human instinct to hesitate when confronted even when you knew it was a simulation. Honestly there is always safety in numbers and the more people confronting and attacking the attacker will up the chances of success for the group. However, I would contend that this will not always be the case. In an active shooter situation multiple people drawing guns and engaging a shooter + LEO arriving on scene can result in more deaths including those good samaritans who choose to engage. More unidentified people with guns could cause confusion and result in more harm.

    In the end every situation will be different. Everyone must choose for themselves if, when and how to engage or not engage. I take issue with the mentality that I would always engage just as much as I take issue with the I will never engage mentality. I really take issue when people portray themselves as some sort of hero for taking on the engage mindset. Casting a negative light on those who would get the fuck out of dodge. Hopefully none of us will ever have to make that choice but I am willing to bet no one can predict 100% how they will react to these real life and death situations.
     
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2018
    Millie likes this.
  2. CZfool68

    CZfool68 Int'l Man of Mystery Charter Member Sponsor Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2016
    Messages:
    8,322
    Likes Received:
    11,289
    Location:
    Apex / W. Jefferson NC
    Turn it off. Don't give the enemy any time.
     
    concepthomes1 and richardlc like this.
  3. wvsig

    wvsig Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2017
    Messages:
    1,288
    Likes Received:
    1,632
    Location:
    Rutherfordton, NC
    That is a unique scenario. When people choose to act they knew one way or another they were going to die. They understood what the plane was going to be used for if they did not act. It does not make their actions less heroic but it was a huge variable in the scenario. Those who fought heroically chose to die with their boots on and in the process saved others.
     
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2018
    Button Pusher and Millie like this.
  4. CZfool68

    CZfool68 Int'l Man of Mystery Charter Member Sponsor Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2016
    Messages:
    8,322
    Likes Received:
    11,289
    Location:
    Apex / W. Jefferson NC
    Yep, it all depends on the exact scenario. I'd likely not take a long head shot with my skills, but if he was distracted and I could get close enough to not risk shooting the wrong person I'd go for it. Too many possibilities to argue about on a gun forum. It would be different for all of us.
     
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2018
    Car0linab0y, Bradman, cubrock and 2 others like this.
  5. CZfool68

    CZfool68 Int'l Man of Mystery Charter Member Sponsor Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2016
    Messages:
    8,322
    Likes Received:
    11,289
    Location:
    Apex / W. Jefferson NC
    That would not be shocking. New York City guy at heart. I have never been convinced of his understanding of the Constitution or love of the 2nd. My guess is he'll trade some gun bill for something he wants at some point. And both things will be fairly superficial and allow the parties to fund raise more on their pet issues.
     
    ChickenHawk and SPM like this.
  6. wvsig

    wvsig Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2017
    Messages:
    1,288
    Likes Received:
    1,632
    Location:
    Rutherfordton, NC
    THIS!!!! Every scenario will be different. There would be so many variables to contend with.
     
    Millie and cubrock like this.
  7. wvsig

    wvsig Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2017
    Messages:
    1,288
    Likes Received:
    1,632
    Location:
    Rutherfordton, NC
    Also remember you don't always have to use a gun to be a hero. As the shooter reloaded people threw barstools through windows and helped people get out of the building. People helped others get out of the way of harm without a gun. Sometime we forget that when the only tool you have is a hammer everything looks like a nail. Heroic people helped save lives and did not need a firearm to do it.
     
  8. Millie

    Millie Well-Known Member Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2017
    Messages:
    1,988
    Likes Received:
    1,458
    Location:
    NC
    Nicely said.
     
    Windini likes this.
  9. Teacher

    Teacher Member

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2017
    Messages:
    266
    Likes Received:
    187
    Location:
    FEMA Region IV
    They're saying the shooter was a Marine. Here's a good video.

     
  10. charliesgrave

    charliesgrave cosmoline enthusiast Life Member Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Dec 16, 2016
    Messages:
    970
    Likes Received:
    1,008
    Location:
    Statesville/Wilkesboro
    They have one of these simulators at Sportsman's Lodge in Yadkinville. They have a Sig and a Glock and I think were working on adding a rifle last I checked.
    I'd encourage all the John Wicks in this thread to try out some of the harder scenarios.
     
    Cowboy and Catfish like this.
  11. Qball

    Qball Member Benefactor Charter Life Member

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2016
    Messages:
    3,215
    Likes Received:
    6,357
    Location:
    Triad
    I just hope and pray none of us on here, especially those of you I consider very good friends, will ever have to find out how we will react when faced with a similar circumstance.
     
  12. BigWaylon

    BigWaylon Head philatelist Staff Member Charter Member Benefactor

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2016
    Messages:
    15,249
    Likes Received:
    52,985
    Location:
    Charlotte
    I just hope if any mass shooting is stopped by a pile driver that security footage is available.
     
  13. Case Mouth

    Case Mouth Happy to be here Benefactor

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2016
    Messages:
    182
    Likes Received:
    384
    Location:
    NUNYA, NC
    Is no one else just blown a way at that fact that apparently some of these folks at this shooting were also at the Vegas shooting? As much a the media disagrees, these are lighting strike/ shark attack like events and some of these unlucky bastards were at BOTH! I would wonder if someone was trying to tell me something about something- very least would stop going to country venues.
     
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2018
  14. charliesgrave

    charliesgrave cosmoline enthusiast Life Member Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Dec 16, 2016
    Messages:
    970
    Likes Received:
    1,008
    Location:
    Statesville/Wilkesboro
    They definitely won the bad lottery.
     
  15. B00ger

    B00ger Das B00G Charter Member Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2016
    Messages:
    3,519
    Likes Received:
    10,240
    Location:
    Lambda Lambda Lambda
    Its my go to move my brotatochip.
     
    bigfelipe, gunbelt and BigWaylon like this.
  16. drypowder

    drypowder Les Deplorables Charter Member

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2016
    Messages:
    3,617
    Likes Received:
    6,321
    Location:
    near NC State in Raleigh
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2018
    Bunsen likes this.
  17. cubrock

    cubrock Swell guy Benefactor Charter Life Member

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2016
    Messages:
    2,050
    Likes Received:
    2,484
    Location:
    Hickory, NC
    Bunsen likes this.
  18. sr30

    sr30 Member

    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2016
    Messages:
    1,190
    Likes Received:
    1,682
    Location:
    Mooresville
    I think most people just want the opportunity to defend themselves how they see fit.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
    BatteryOaksBilly, BudE, ECNC and 5 others like this.
  19. CZfool68

    CZfool68 Int'l Man of Mystery Charter Member Sponsor Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2016
    Messages:
    8,322
    Likes Received:
    11,289
    Location:
    Apex / W. Jefferson NC
    This would make a great movie plot. Evil bad guys are trying to kill someone. First their crew kills all those people in Vegas, but fails to get the target. Then they plot another attempt in CA and miss again. Intrepid FBI investigator slowly figures out hot young heiress to a fidget spinner fortune is the target. He saves her, they fall in love and sail off to Catalina Island.
     
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2018
  20. rufrdr

    rufrdr Member

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2018
    Messages:
    141
    Likes Received:
    245
    Location:
    Willow Spring
    The scenario that left me standing there saying "what just happened" was serving a warrant on a guy who looked like Grizzly Adams living in a house trailer. Your video partner tells you this guy is bad news and shouldn't be trusted. You bang on the door, say POLICE, open the door and step in side. This huge guy is sitting on a couch reading the paper. You say something like "Police, don't move!" and he replies by dropping the newspaper which concealed a Bowie knife and before I could blink he was across the floor and I was dead.

    The instructor previously had cautioned me that I couldn't just go around shooting people who don't comply with my instructions. After I was dead he asked me what I did wrong. I replied that I didn't shoot him as soon as he stirred from the couch. We did it again and Grizzly was dead as soon as he started to get to his feet but of course that isn't how real life goes. The instructor said that a person can cover 10 ft in just a few seconds. It was intense.
     
  21. Button Pusher

    Button Pusher Well-Known Member Benefactor

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2017
    Messages:
    4,435
    Likes Received:
    4,940
    Location:
    Raleigh
    I agree, plus they could have taken control of the plane, difficult but not impossible.
    Landing the plane at military airfield or airport with long runways via radio conversations with tower and pilots or cell phone if radio disabled, along with the flight manuals on board.
     
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2018
    wvsig likes this.
  22. NCFubar

    NCFubar Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2016
    Messages:
    1,827
    Likes Received:
    3,182
    BINGO!!! I want to have the choice.

    Funny thing though if I were alone or with just say my wife and/or kid instead of in a crowd like that club I pretty damn sure I’d actually act quicker and way more aggressively. But one of my biggest problems would be the thought of hitting an innocent bystander ... I almost think that would haunt me more than not acting and just saving my own ass.

    Another thing to remember if ever in a crap storm like this is be ready to get real compliant real fast at the first sign of LEOs ... they don’t know if you’re a good guy or bad guy.

    Again ... TRAINING and PRACTICE FOR REAL WORLD is something you’d better keep on top of because just luck and pray ain’t something I’d bet on if ever caught up in something even remotely close to this.
     
  23. SSgt75

    SSgt75 Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 10, 2017
    Messages:
    373
    Likes Received:
    713
    Location:
    Hillsborough, NC
    Murphy's Law of Combat: No plan survives the first contact intact.

    We train and train and train in the Marine Corps (and all services) for combat operations. You NEVER know what you will do until you are IN the situation. Sometimes it's muscle memory or training that takes over without thinking about it. Sometimes the "bravest/toughest" guy in training falls to pieces when the real bullets start flying and he sees the guy next to him get splattered. But I've seen corpsmen run through hell to treat a wounded Marine. You just don't KNOW how you will react until you're there.
     
  24. waxhaw

    waxhaw Member

    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2017
    Messages:
    104
    Likes Received:
    84
    Location:
    Waxhaw
    This ^^^^^^^^^^^^^
     
  25. Gator

    Gator Parts guy Charter Member

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2017
    Messages:
    659
    Likes Received:
    802
    Location:
    Charlotte
    Murphy's Law of Combat: No plan survives the first contact intact.


    tyson.jpg
     
  26. rufrdr

    rufrdr Member

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2018
    Messages:
    141
    Likes Received:
    245
    Location:
    Willow Spring
  27. CZfool68

    CZfool68 Int'l Man of Mystery Charter Member Sponsor Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2016
    Messages:
    8,322
    Likes Received:
    11,289
    Location:
    Apex / W. Jefferson NC
    So if you don't shoot him you are dead, and if you do you are a murderer. I guess the key to doing it right is to not open the man's door. Then it's all good.
     
    noway2 and mig1nc like this.
  28. Bunsen

    Bunsen ACME Labs

    Joined:
    Dec 16, 2016
    Messages:
    733
    Likes Received:
    1,248
    Location:
    Knightdale
    It appears their was a Rt 91 Harvest Festival survivors group that met there quite regularly, and unfortunately one of them was indeed killed last night.

    Strange coincidence or was this group possibly targeted by the shooter?

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...hows-gunman-Ian-David-Long-shoot-victims.html
     
  29. noway2

    noway2 Senior Member Charter Life Member

    Joined:
    Dec 16, 2016
    Messages:
    5,565
    Likes Received:
    7,740
    Location:
    Onboard the mothership
    Because laws don’t, can’t prevent. Just like in your previous post in training, laws, (saying of yelling) police, a badge, etc won’t save you from someone who despises the system and by extension you and your symbols of officialdom and simply doesn’t care about their life or anyone else’s. Safety and (police) authority are just an illusion created by the fact that the vast majority of folks are not homicidal and believe in the system.
     
    Ikarus1 likes this.
  30. IrishCannon

    IrishCannon Fight hard.

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2016
    Messages:
    2,413
    Likes Received:
    2,051
    Location:
    Somewhere outside NC


    Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using Tapatalk
     
  31. MostWanted

    MostWanted I used to be JustInCase Charter Member Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2016
    Messages:
    468
    Likes Received:
    827
    Location:
    Wake County
    I've been deer hunting about five years. Two weeks ago, I found myself in a tactical situation with two bucks, one right under me and one 30 yards away, and having to set things up, waiting until they were not looking, etc. I totally screwed it up and went home empty handed. I just don't think well on my feet, especially when the adrenaline is flowing and I'm trying not to hyperventilate.

    A couple of months ago, I was in my truck and saw what looked like a homeless guy on a bicycle on a country road in Chatham County, almost at dark. I asked him where he was going and he said Charlotte--but he wasn't headed that way. I wondered if he was looking to break into some of the homes on that road. I had a full cab, so I offered him a ride to Pittsboro (maybe 10 miles), but only in the bed of my truck. I dropped him off in front of the Sheriff's Office. I'd been climbing trees getting ready for deer season, so the gun was in the cab of the truck as I helped him get his bicycle and backpack out of the truck. Later, I got to thinking that I didn't properly position myself so that if he tried to jump me and take my truck, he probably could have. I won't make that mistake again, but I've got to get better at thinking ahead, playing "what if", and being more alert to these situations.

    If I haven't gamed it out ahead of time, I won't get it right when the time comes. Maybe my next shooting class should be this kind of stuff.
     
    Millie and CZfool68 like this.
  32. gunbelt

    gunbelt Sponsor Benefactor Charter Life Member Sponsor

    Joined:
    Dec 16, 2016
    Messages:
    2,351
    Likes Received:
    5,747
    Location:
    Wesley Chapel, NC
    Oh go hide behind the pedicure chairs & or just get back to the perms & sets.
     
    Railsplitter and Ikarus1 like this.
  33. Bailey Boat

    Bailey Boat Senior Member Charter Member Benefactor Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Dec 16, 2016
    Messages:
    4,969
    Likes Received:
    8,315
    Location:
    Kannapolis, NC.
    I think most folks that have responded are basically on the right track with exceptions.

    " More unidentified people with guns could cause confusion and result in more harm." Oh hell yes!! But...

    Face it, there is already harm happening and it's going to continue until, #1. Someone puts a stop to it. #2. The shooter is finished killing people. #3. The shooter runs out of ammo.
    If you stand there and do nothing, you're going to be the next casualty. If you do something you could be the next casualty. One is possible, the other is probable. Depends on your fight/flight responses.

    The absolute last thing I'm going to do is call 911. There will be so many "phone people" calling that all you would get is a busy signal. I know their on the way, but how long until they arrive?? How many people (including me) are going to die during that time??

    I told LJ a long time ago that avoidance and awareness will be your best weapon. Avoid large crowds in public and be aware of what's happening around you. I have tested her on several occasions and she did better each time with her responses.

    Do something!! Don't just sit there sipping your drink and wait your turn to feel the pain. Get up and run, either toward the threat or toward safety, whichever in in your makeup.....
     
  34. Catfish

    Catfish E Pluribus Mendacium Charter Member Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Dec 16, 2016
    Messages:
    3,639
    Likes Received:
    5,983
    Location:
    Charlotte
    Nice! I can't get my wife out of the "It won't happen here because... (reasons)" mindset. I guess that's why she has me.
     
    ChickenHawk and Millie like this.
  35. CZfool68

    CZfool68 Int'l Man of Mystery Charter Member Sponsor Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2016
    Messages:
    8,322
    Likes Received:
    11,289
    Location:
    Apex / W. Jefferson NC
    Wow, no bias or sensationalism on Sky News huh.

    And I feel for the Mom, but maybe the ebst time to speak or make rational thoughts is not right after your son has been killed. She has no more credibility on this issue than my 12 year daughter.

    Edit - I'll also add that her son was in a mass shooting and didn't change his behavior one bit. I would think I'd either avoid crowded targets or maybe learn to be a bot more defensive minded. Poor little sheep.
     
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2018
    smithnwesley likes this.
  36. CZfool68

    CZfool68 Int'l Man of Mystery Charter Member Sponsor Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2016
    Messages:
    8,322
    Likes Received:
    11,289
    Location:
    Apex / W. Jefferson NC
    Nice gesture helping the guy, but no way. Maybe of you have a buddy that can cover you, but still not a great idea. You had no idea who he was or what he was capable of. Glad you made it home.
     
    Millie likes this.
  37. IrishCannon

    IrishCannon Fight hard.

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2016
    Messages:
    2,413
    Likes Received:
    2,051
    Location:
    Somewhere outside NC
    Compare that woman to this dude who lost his 9yo daughter in Tuscon years ago. Calls for absolutely no change in firearm laws, and says when you live in a free country, you will simply have to deal with these things from time to time. It sounds like he has accepted the inherent danger associated with freedom, and is willing to accept it rather than be a slave.
     
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2018
  38. mhuxtable

    mhuxtable Member

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2016
    Messages:
    100
    Likes Received:
    40
    Location:
    Wake County
    Haven't done a pedi or perm since school, but if you want me to gussy you up just let me know. But remember, even a pig with lipstick still smells. It's a comb not a magic wand.
     
  39. CZfool68

    CZfool68 Int'l Man of Mystery Charter Member Sponsor Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2016
    Messages:
    8,322
    Likes Received:
    11,289
    Location:
    Apex / W. Jefferson NC
    The scarey thing is that her son likely changed nothing in his life after Vegas, and the Mom and young girl that was there are both looking for Gov and others to make then safe or fix their problems. Not sure if that is more a reflection on women or our weak culture. People are blind to the fact that the local PD, laws and the Feds cannot protect us all. Their failures are on display every freaking day. And still people cry for more. I know it is wrong, but I'd like to just slap them both and yell wake the %#+* up.

    Edit - For example. When we had a rash of local car break ins and thefts at the place my daighter works here is what we did and didn't do. I drove my daughter to the parking lot and building one morning and ran through where she should park, and that she leaves nothing in the car and what she should look for around the lot when she enters the building. And when she leaves. And we tlaked about self defense and whehter she should call the PD depedning on what she sees. She usually works days and mornings on the weekend so that helps. You know what I didn't do? I didn't go cry at the local PD and demand action.
     
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2018
    Ikarus1, Millie, noway2 and 1 other person like this.
  40. IrishCannon

    IrishCannon Fight hard.

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2016
    Messages:
    2,413
    Likes Received:
    2,051
    Location:
    Somewhere outside NC
    I think it's people in general, but I would *imagine* women are more susceptible to that line of thought; I mean, shit, 2nd wave feminism was just marxism pushed towards the female crowd. And it worked.

    Anyways, it's unfortunate how many people think like this, and I get frustrated as hell with people who want to ride the line.

    This country is becoming so insanely polarized, and pretty soon you won't have the option to bicker over the fine details. There will be a line in the sand and people will need to pick a side. It's either Liberty or slavery. There will only be friend and enemy.
     
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2018

Share This Page