And all of this means my intellect will only allow me to shoot fixed sight handguns.
Calculating Theoretical Holds
- Thread starter Grim
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I can certainly appreciate that. Remember I'm Old and my lack of knowledge on many things is outweighed by my lack of interest. I have enjoyed This thread though. Seems like Boyette is On it.
He has shown interest in the past of coming here. Perhaps one day...……….
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Maybe here???????
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Not at all.
This has nothing to do with a linear unit of measure. mm, cm is 1000% the problem. This optic is .025 MIL per-click. industry standard is .1 mil It is incorrectly labeled from the factory on the turret knobs.
The equivalent most of us are use to in MOA is 1/4 MOA to 1/8th MOA click.
@JBoyette had/has it nailed down.
Most of what was involved was figuring out whether it was a Mil optic or a MOA optic. It's a Mil optic sure enough, from there it was just converting the adjustment for inches/yards at specified distance.
Being a European optic, I'd disagree that the turrets are incorrectly labeled. I think it's fair to say the markings were poorly thought out for the American market. While certainly not intuitive to anyone familiar with the American optics market, it's correspondence with the metric system would undoubtedly be fairly intuitive within it's European market.
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@Matt.Cross
Check it out.
Let let say on your path that the linear unit of measure matters. Lets take it one step beyond and remove the whole idea of angle unit of measure and then, an American Market focused Riflescope
At 200yds the click is 1/2"
At 300yds the click is 3/4"
So for me to make since of this optic the engraving and manufacture info only works at 100yds and in inches right?
Well no, I could measure that adjustment at 100yds in meters because I am a green card holder.
4 clicks now = 2.54cm
At 50yds the click is .3175
At 200yds the click is 1.27cm
At 300yds the click is 1.905cm
So hold the phone, when my distance changes, the value of the click changes? Yes in a linear unit of measure world.
BUT oh man, that's alot to keep track of, how could a system help me not have so many adjusting numbers to keep track of?
MAYBE just MAYBE linear is the wrong way to measure angles?
Angles have degrees and stuff, they get bigger over distance. Could a angle maintain is value over distance and still maintain its degree vector? Yeah they do. But whats the distance between 1 degree from the next? Well yes, each degree has 60 Minute's of angle (MOA) between each degree.
So if that's true, then how does MOA solve this changing number issue that linear unit of measure has?
Here is the apple to apples comparison.
Inches and yards:
At 200yds the click is 1/4 MOA
At 300yds the click is 1/4 MOA
Metric
At 200yds the click is 1/4 MOA
At 300yds the click is 1/4 MOA
Just my observation.
Check it out.
Let let say on your path that the linear unit of measure matters. Lets take it one step beyond and remove the whole idea of angle unit of measure and then, an American Market focused Riflescope
- 4 clicks = 1" @100yds
- 1/4" inch per-click elevation and windage
At 200yds the click is 1/2"
At 300yds the click is 3/4"
So for me to make since of this optic the engraving and manufacture info only works at 100yds and in inches right?
Well no, I could measure that adjustment at 100yds in meters because I am a green card holder.
4 clicks now = 2.54cm
At 50yds the click is .3175
At 200yds the click is 1.27cm
At 300yds the click is 1.905cm
So hold the phone, when my distance changes, the value of the click changes? Yes in a linear unit of measure world.
BUT oh man, that's alot to keep track of, how could a system help me not have so many adjusting numbers to keep track of?
MAYBE just MAYBE linear is the wrong way to measure angles?
Angles have degrees and stuff, they get bigger over distance. Could a angle maintain is value over distance and still maintain its degree vector? Yeah they do. But whats the distance between 1 degree from the next? Well yes, each degree has 60 Minute's of angle (MOA) between each degree.
So if that's true, then how does MOA solve this changing number issue that linear unit of measure has?
Here is the apple to apples comparison.
Inches and yards:
- 4 clicks = 1 MOA @100yds
- 1/4" MOA per-click elevation and windage
At 200yds the click is 1/4 MOA
At 300yds the click is 1/4 MOA
Metric
- 4 clicks = 1 MOA @100yds
- 1/4" MOA per-click elevation and windage
At 200yds the click is 1/4 MOA
At 300yds the click is 1/4 MOA
Just my observation.
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I get it, it's well explained, and you're not wrong.
It wasn't long ago that a new shooter asked me why scopes adjusted based on angles rather than linear distance, and I explained almost identically what you just did. Then she asked, "So how do you adjust if they say you were 2 ft to the right?". It raised a really good point concerning being capable of making precise adjustments if you're using a spotter unfamiliar with your optic/reticle/measuring system, and that boils down to at least a rudimentary understanding of the correlation between the angular measurement and the linear one in the plane of the target, at least if you prefer to dial instead of holding it.
The turret markings are about as clear as mud, no denying that whatsoever, understand and agree with you there.
Having said that, imagine being a newcomer to shooting in Europe, buying an American hunting optic, and trying to make sense of 1/4" @ 100 yards when all you know is the metric system.
I see it as being much the same. A 100 meter zero is probably common, the Mil system plugs into the metric system perfectly, and the correspondence between .1 Mils and 1cm (given a common 100m zero) is probably overstating the obvious to any European above the age of 12. That's why I said the turrets aren't necessarily wrong in my opinion, but I would agree very much that they're improperly marked for the American optics market.
I'm trying desperately to be simultaneously clear about my meaning and not argumentative, I know you know your stuff.
Tim
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It's not really metric system at all. Metrics make it easier because of the base-10 values being easy to calc in your head.
1 MIL is simply 1/1,000 of any unit.
1 MIL is 3.6" @ 100 yards. There are 3,600 inches in 100 yards, right?
The fact that yards/feet are based on 12 inches makes the math harder to calc in your head, but a MIL is still just a MIL.
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Tim
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Other than not being able to actually FIND targets, this was/would have been our main hinderance when we did that match together last year. You were running MOA, I was running MIL. So, if I was able to spot a miss while you were shooting, I could use my reticle to say, "you were .3 MIL low" but that would be gibberish to an MOA shooter.
It's important to match system, whichever you choose, to your partner/spotter for quickest communication.
Thank you, that's exactly what I was trying to reference.
I certainly agree. I also feel that it's equally important to be skilled in the ability to convert when that luxury is not available. I'm trying to learn my skill set to the degree that the lack of such luxuries does not handicap me.
I'm getting fairly good at converting between mil and moa on the fly.
I will tackle @Tim Post first, then it will roll over to @Matt.Cross's question.
RULE OF THUMB for Spotting:
A 1 MOA is .3 MIL Never forget that.
So IF you have a mixed system be it shooters or god forbid a MOA/MIL optic just remember the conversion is 1/3rd.
Example:
Spotter MIL, Shooter MOA
Shot 1 is .3 mil right, SPLASH: 1 MOA right
Shot 2 is .6mil low, 1 mil left SPLASH 2 MOA low, 3.5 MOA Left
As to @Matt.Cross question.
The correct answer is not 2 ft its X MOA as in at 100yds its 24 MOA right, or at 400yds its 4 MOA right. The 2 feet "24 inches" is pointless. The Proper way to learn LongRange shooting in in Angular Unit of Measure. MOA and MIL.
When one says (24" right or, 2 feet right) think of the ice cream headache it causes! No value what so ever. Now if they tell you 12 MOA or 4 MIL, now we have something to work with.
Linear only value in shooting is a known index point of the trajectory arc. This includes:
- Dead Space
- Ascending Branch
- Maximum Ordinate
- Descending Branch
- Point Blank zone
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The paragraph before this was about converting between MOA/Mils on the fly.
Let's say you're measuring an 18" target in the reticle, it reads 3 MOA across: you can't turn 2ft into 4 MOA, but you can convert MOA/Mils with ease?
Calling a miss in feet isn't preferable or even recommended, but if you're unable to make that useful, go ahead and conduct a field course in angular mathematics with your spotter. Me, I'll just conclude that I need to move 5.5 MOA left and send it.
Ok I quit
Why? With the express exception of your statement about it being useless, I agree with what you've said. If I've stated something erroneous, I'm open to being corrected on it. This wouldn't be my first time being wrong, but I would prefer the explanation for why I'm wrong to make sense.
Angular measurement is ideal, I agree. Optimally, it will be in the same terms of measurement between spotter and shooter, agree. Linear adjustment is useless, disagree because there's a correspondence and if you know that correspondence you can utilize it.
Where's the beef?
11.2 mil or so?
Too easy
Best of luck to you! Can't wait to hear how it went. Where are you going to shoot?
Wind was rough today. Disappointing, but was an excellent tool to show me my limitations in wind. 10 to 12 mph sustained with 30 mph gusts, with variable directions.
Elevation calculations were spot on and it's nice to be able to shoot, and wait to see the impact down range.
975 yards was a bit easier since the target was more protected from wind.
The 12-50 powered Schmidt & Bender PMII was outstanding. I could clearly spot all impacts for everyone with the scope out to 1000. I let the owner use my spotting scope since I had no use for it today.
Will post pics in the morning.
Elevation calculations were spot on and it's nice to be able to shoot, and wait to see the impact down range.
975 yards was a bit easier since the target was more protected from wind.
The 12-50 powered Schmidt & Bender PMII was outstanding. I could clearly spot all impacts for everyone with the scope out to 1000. I let the owner use my spotting scope since I had no use for it today.
Will post pics in the morning.
Best way to learn wind is to spot for a shooter on your gun, doing your called holds. You see your correct calls and when your call goes bad.
