Changes to Army drill sergeants and army basic training

Chuckman

Chuckman

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As much as all the screaming & yelling freaked me out initially (hooray for abusive childhoods), I think it’s necessary to break down whatever crap is in someone’s head & “reprogram” them to do soldier stuff reflexively.

Soldiering’s a dangerous business & if someone can’t pull their head out of their 4th point of contact, they will get themselves & others killed. It’s not supposed to be easy & if you can’t handle being yelled at in training, WTF are you gonna do when someone’s actively trying to kill you & everyone around you?
 
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I am a little mixed on it with no hard opinion but did want to provide some food for thought. Like yall have said, war is dangerous and people should be prepared for it. On the other hand, warfare is changing a little bit as we move into more technical aspects. The infantry will always own the last 300 meters and will be required but with the rise of drones, AI, and cyber capabilities that can have large effects you do have to look at what Soldiers are being recruited and how to keep them. I am not combat arms but have sat in a JOC on more than one occasion and watched more people die due to aerial assets than individuals on the ground. From personal experience, the folk who are good with the drones, AI, and cyber do not necessarily like to play army like combat arms but are necessary to continue the fight whether in COIN or near peer.
 
InertOrd13 said:
I am a little mixed on it with no hard opinion but did want to provide some food for thought. Like yall have said, war is dangerous and people should be prepared for it. On the other hand, warfare is changing a little bit as we move into more technical aspects. The infantry will always own the last 300 meters and will be required but with the rise of drones, AI, and cyber capabilities that can have large effects you do have to look at what Soldiers are being recruited and how to keep them. I am not combat arms but have sat in a JOC on more than one occasion and watched more people die due to aerial assets than individuals on the ground. From personal experience, the folk who are good with the drones, AI, and cyber do not necessarily like to play army like combat arms but are necessary to continue the fight whether in COIN or near peer.
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Only problem with that (& I’m not picking at you) is that things don’t always go according to plan. Convoys get lost & the booger eaters didn’t read the OPORD. Things can go sideways quickly & someone who turns to water when they’re yelled & called a shitbird is dead weight at best, an enemy force multiplier at worst.
 
Crazy Carl said:
I think it’s necessary to break down whatever crap is in someone’s head & “reprogram” them to do soldier stuff reflexively.
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When I took Psych 101 as a sophomore in school, this was recognized in the text book as a legitimate means of behavior modification.

“Unfreeze,
Change,
Refreeze"
 
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fieldgrade said:
When I took Psych 101 as a sophomore in school, this was recognized in the text book as a legitimate means of behavior modification.

“Unfreeze,
Change,
Refreeze"
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Exactly. You have to be reprogrammed to do much of what will be expected of you. You typically can’t sweet talk people into overcoming abject terror & performing under immense pressure, or pushing past their physical & mental “limits” when the chips are down.

Eh, what do I know? Having been trained & mentored by Nam vets, I was a dinosaur by the time I retired in ‘08. I was a crusty grizzly bear of a platoon sergeant & my kind weren’t particularly welcome anymore, even back then.
 
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Never been in the army. Had no desire for me in a draw down when we talked to them during college. I said thanks, not going in as an enlisted. All I can tell you is from my officer son’s conversations. Since Biden‘s Adm, the entire Army has been instructed to be a kinder, gentler, understanding military. What that also created was an Army where people are not held accountable much.

As far as basic training- not much on demeaning and getting up nose to nose in peoples face. I agree in an all volunteering Army it may be time to back off this method. The number of suicides in the Army by people who have never seen combat is pretty alarming when compared to the US population. A broken person who is trained by being broken down usually does not end well- suicide, mental issues, becomes a violent person, etc..
As the world changes in so many ways, so shall the service branches. It’s change or die off.
 
Crazy Carl said:
pushing past their physical & mental “limits” when the chips are down.
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This all day!

Basic showed me that I could do more than I thought I could. Basic made me push past my self imposed barriers and that has stayed with me my entire life.

I dont think there would be any amount of "good boy" encouragement that would have inspired me to push past limits like the Drill Sargents did.
 
Is interesting that the author also highlighted Special Forces assessment and selection. There's absolutely no yelling, but the stress is immense.

If only through the shark attack, and in your face yelling, you achieve stress inoculation, then how does the SF approach work?

I'm not taking a side one way or the other, but understand why they think they need to evolve.
 
Chuckman said:
Is interesting that the author also highlighted Special Forces assessment and selection. There's absolutely no yelling, but the stress is immense.

If only through the shark attack, and in your face yelling, you achieve stress inoculation, then how does the SF approach work?

I'm not taking a side one way or the other, but understand why they think they need to evolve.
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Imo, different selection/training process
 
Basic training is all about teaching discipline to those lacking in discipline. Once you learn who's the boss and to follow instructions, you'll be fine. The physical training will bring out the best in you. As said above, you'll do things that you never thought you were capable of doing.
 
Diablos said:
Imo, different selection/training process
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It is true that by the time you get to that point you are little more mature. Or should be. But in many cases the candidates are x-rays, having been in the Army only a few months going straight from the street, to basic, to A& S.

The Marine Corps has no desire to stop its methodology in boot camp. The Navy I would say is a healthy combination of both the Army and the Marine Corps approaches. I was a little older when I went in, and could have dealt without the yelling and BS.
 
Chuckman said:
Is interesting that the author also highlighted Special Forces assessment and selection. There's absolutely no yelling, but the stress is immense.

If only through the shark attack, and in your face yelling, you achieve stress inoculation, then how does the SF approach work?

I'm not taking a side one way or the other, but understand why they think they need to evolve.
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I found that part interesting, too. It also mentioned the shark attack ,ethos was developed to work with a conscript army and jay not be either necessary or the most effective way to deal with a different type. The article mentioned that some of the conscripts had planned to kill the drill instructors. I am surprised that in your face yelling brought compliance rather than broken necks.
 
From my understanding, the 18X program isn’t quite the snake eater factory that was hoped for & off the top of my head, I’d guess has a much higher attrition rate than “regular” MOSs (hence the SOF Truth- You can’t mass produce SOF troops.) Dudes who go through SFAS are typically older, more mature & have already been through the Army 101 “break em down, build em back up” program. Plus, the dudes who end up in tier 1or 2 units are just wired differently than the rest of us.

I was 18 & I gotta admit, all the yelling & aggression freaked me TF out, but I figured it out & did what needed done. That said, a lot of the demeaning crap is unnecessary. You don’t have to curse at someone or put them down to put the fear of God into them.

Just my thoughts & experiences on the matter. The Army was already becoming kinder & gentler by the time I retired. Then Obama began purging the meat eater senior officers & here we are. It’s a shame, the military saved my life & set me up for success & I used to wholeheartedly recommend enlisting to any young person who expressed an interest or just wasn’t sure what they wanted to do with their life. Not any more, not in good faith. One of my kid cousins had been chomping at the bit to follow in my footsteps, to exit aircraft while in flight & go see the world. I am relieved beyond measure that his then girlfriend caught preggers & threw a monkey wrench into those plans.
 
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Crazy Carl said:
From my understanding, the 18X program isn’t quite the snake eater factory that was hoped for & of the top of my head, I’d guess has a much higher attrition rate than “regular” MOSs (hence the SOF Truth- You can’t mass produce SOF troops.) Dudes who go through SFAS are typically older, more mature & have already been through the Army 101 “break em down, build em back up” program. Plus, the dudes who end up in tier 1or 2 units are just wired differently than the rest of us.

I was 18 & I gotta admit, all the yelling & aggression freaked me TF out, but I figured it out & did what needed done. That said, a lot of the demeaning crap is unnecessary. You don’t have to curse at someone or put them down to put the fear of God into them.

Just my thoughts & experiences on the matter. The Army was already becoming kinder & gentler by the time I retired. Then Obama began purging the meat eater senior officers & here we are. It’s a shame, the military saved my life & set me up for success & I used to wholeheartedly recommend enlisting to any young person who expressed an interest or just wasn’t sure what they wanted to do with their life. Not any more, not in good faith. One of my kid cousins had been chomping at the bit to follow in my footsteps, to exit aircraft while in flight & go see the world. I am relieved beyond measure that his then girlfriend caught preggers & threw a monkey wrench into those plans.
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not to mention this, makes me want to puke. the more things change, the more they stay the same.


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Crazy Carl said:
From my understanding, the 18X program isn’t quite the snake eater factory that was hoped for & of the top of my head, I’d guess has a much higher attrition rate than “regular” MOSs (hence the SOF Truth- You can’t mass produce SOF troops.) Dudes who go through SFAS are typically older, more mature & have already been through the Army 101 “break em down, build em back up” program. Plus, the dudes who end up in tier 1or 2 units are just wired differently than the rest of us.
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In my visits to the schoolhouse and SOCOM, I ask a bunch of questions, because I am curious about processes and history. About 50% of the 18D students are 18X. Interestingly, most of the established army guys in the 18D program are not medical guys; they have MOSs other than medical. My two friends on 3113, both were infantry prior to SF, where they tested into 18D (despite both wanting 18B). Also interestingly, the attrition between 18X and established soldiers is roughly the same in A&S. To the army's credit, it seems they are constantly tweaking the 18X program to give the candidates the best shot. I guess land nav was a huge DQ at some point; they put in some low-speed/walk-crawl-run land nav prior to A&S, which saw their numbers of selectees jump, as an example.

I am curious as to what the breakdown of 18X was during the heyday of GWOT. I know the Ranger Option 40 street-to-regiment program is still very popular, but they assess for Rangers very differently than SF.

The Navy struggles with this, too. They started a street-to-Recon/MARSOC corpsman program. Talking with them, they are getting PT studs who are failing the academics, or academics that cannot handle the physical, with a small percentage that prevail at both. They are also constantly tweaking the program.
 
Inglis said:
I want Basic to be a hell you can remember forever.

When the crap hits the fan remember what your Drill Sgt told you.

It will save your life.
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I was a DI in the early 70’s at Ft Leonard Wood (combat Engineers) when we were sending guys to Vietnam.

If we didn’t start off being tough the cycle was a shit show, but if we “came to an immediate understanding” the cycle went smoothly for the most part.

Our job was to train them to do a job and how to stay alive in 14 weeks.
 
Crazy Carl said:
I was 18 & I gotta admit, all the yelling & aggression freaked me TF out, but I figured it out & did what needed done. That said, a lot of the demeaning crap is unnecessary. You don’t have to curse at someone or put them down to put the fear of God into them.
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It may be a matter of perspective. I was at Basic in 1990 at Ft Jackson. I found the first few weeks to be terrifying because I had no idea what I had gotten myself into. Once I figure out what the game was, it wasn't bad. At least what I remember from 30 years ago doesn't seem bad.
 
cold1 said:
It may be a matter of perspective. I was at Basic in 1990 at Ft Jackson. I found the first few weeks to be terrifying because I had no idea what I had gotten myself into. Once I figure out what the game was, it wasn't bad. At least what I remember from 30 years ago doesn't seem bad.
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I did Army basic in 1975, my son did it in 2003. He turned out well, made it to E5 and did his tour in Iraq. The Army gave both of us a jump start on our civilian peers in life.

When we got our 1 minute phone call home a day or two after arriving at BT I told my dad, 'I made a big mistake' 😆 I had never encountered anything like the drill sergeants in my life.
 
When those Drill Sergeants at Benning rat-packed our bus when we arrived at our company, I realized I had grossly underestimated what I was getting myself into 😆

Return trips to the Ft Benning Academy for Wayward Boys for jump school & Jumpmaster as an E5, then E7, were much less traumatic, if not much more fun. I’ll admit that JM was a gentleman’s course, but there are no fun schools at that place.
 
I don't understand the reactions about being gassed. They've been doing that at ARC/BRC for decades, I believe at BRC now they do it for a full mile on top of a mesa during a team event where you have to carry wounded buddies and equipment on litters. I think there's even a YouTube video about this.

Edited to add, I found it:

 
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Crazy Carl said:
Be interesting to see who gets relieved over this. Dunno if they’d tank the Division commander or not, or push it downhill onto the G3.
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Yes, some head will roll. I’m a bit surprised someone didn’t think this was a bad idea. I don’t have any knowledge of training that is done but decades ago they had a room with staffing who assisted. I am just speculating that the rank above the commander would take care of him and blame all of it on the G3 since he approves training.
 
It's not gassing them per se, but rather a question of whether they had protective gear/masks. We got surprise gassed frequently in the field, but we all had our pro-masks, per the doctrine at the time. Ack! Choke! MFer! Don, clear & seal mask. Breathe. Bastards! 'N on with whatever tomfoolery we were engaged in at the time. No big deal.

I'd been gassed so often, I became almost immune to it. As the unit NBC NCO for a while, I'd take people through their annual chamber qual without my mask on. Freaked the brass out & major cred from the Joes. But... gassing folks unawares & without a mask is a major league dick move & very much frowned upon.
 
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