Changing out a breaker box
- Thread starter Sneakymedic
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Where does the main feed come from? what size breaker is feeding the barn? how far away is this feed breaker?
are all 6 breakers being used now?
A "bigger" box ( to supply more amps ) will mean bigger wire and feed breaker in all likelihood.
Not difficult if you are handy.
are all 6 breakers being used now?
A "bigger" box ( to supply more amps ) will mean bigger wire and feed breaker in all likelihood.
Not difficult if you are handy.
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You may, or may not have the amp capacity in the box feeding the barn. If you're maxed out you may consider having a separate meter set to supply the barn. Separate meter = separate bill..... Only you know if it's worth it....
Let's add a few more key questions:
What is the size of the wire feeding the current box? How many conductors and is it grounded (and are the grounds properly bonded)? A 220v system will require 3 (or 4) wires depending on what it is or doing and how. What about the load you want to supply, can any of it be considered continuous meaning it operates for more than three hours in a stretch?
Changing out the box for a bigger one isn't in itself s big deal, but you will need to verify the load versus the capacity and wire sizing.
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SM, the biggest challenge with replacing a breaker box is usually dealing with the lengths of the existing wires. Wires that terminate properly into your existing breakers may not be long enough to reach new breakers in a larger box, and splicing on additional lengths is not optimal.
What I would suggest you consider (space permitting), is to add your new 240V panel and feed, and wire your existing load center to be a subpanel to the new one. This solves the problem of having short wires and also allows you to have lights and power available while you are installing the new circuit. All you need to do is feed the old panel from an adequately sized breaker in the new panel.
What I would suggest you consider (space permitting), is to add your new 240V panel and feed, and wire your existing load center to be a subpanel to the new one. This solves the problem of having short wires and also allows you to have lights and power available while you are installing the new circuit. All you need to do is feed the old panel from an adequately sized breaker in the new panel.
OP
This is what I have and the space I have to work with. I would like to have a few more breakers and a dedicated circuit for a 220 air compressor. My grandfather put this in a few years ago, and just didn't plan on doing anything but the barn lights on it. The yellow cord is a heater for the yard hydrant and the black outside wire is for my electric fence, neither are part of the equation.
Ok. It appears that all of your 120V circuits, except for the one that goes straight down, enter through the lower left side but originate from above. It’s going to be a little tight unless you run new feed wires, because if you install the new load center low enough for the feed wires to work you. May be short on the 120V circuits. It may work though.
Since it’s a sub panel, you have separate wires to run for the ground and the neutral. In main panels normally those two buss’s are hooked together, but they should be separate on a sub panel.
Best of success to you.
Since it’s a sub panel, you have separate wires to run for the ground and the neutral. In main panels normally those two buss’s are hooked together, but they should be separate on a sub panel.
Best of success to you.
Given the wire constraint length, I would be inclined to replace the panel as I think it might be easier to make the feed wires fit and the load wires could go in a lower breaker slot to make them fit. A water hydrant, if it’s what I think it is, and your fence can’t really be “not part of the equation” if they’re fed from this panel as they will be load that could be considered continuous. Chances are they’re small enough to be fairly inconsequential but you can’t assume that. I can’t read the size of the feed wire from the pictures, but it looks pretty decent and off the top of my head, without the NEC chart, I’ll guess it’ll give you about 60A to work with. What I don’t see are the two hot (phase) wires meaning you’ve only got 120Vac.
OP
I figured I would just replace the entire thing if it was feasible. I appreciate all of you guys chiming in. I like DIY projects, but the only experiences with electricity usually revolve around me getting shocked at some point, so I don't mess with it much. Really, I just don't know much about it, so I don't like to mess with it.
So I have another question. The breaker on the right is a 220 that goes to a pump for the well. How does the wiring in the box change to wire a 220 vs a 110? I know I can look at it there and say "well you have two white wires on the top vs……" but I don't understand what exactly that represents. I guess I can yooootubz it. I know I would be wiring a second 220 for an air compressor.
So I have another question. The breaker on the right is a 220 that goes to a pump for the well. How does the wiring in the box change to wire a 220 vs a 110? I know I can look at it there and say "well you have two white wires on the top vs……" but I don't understand what exactly that represents. I guess I can yooootubz it. I know I would be wiring a second 220 for an air compressor.
Look at the picture. You have three large black wires. These feeds the panel. Two have 120 volt and one is a neutral. The breaker is connected to both legs of 120 which create the 240volt. If you look at the picture you see a black and white going into the breaker. There should be some black tape on the white showing it is hot or carries voltage.
Once you know the basics you can pretty much do your own work. I pulled all the wire and installed the disconects when I had a heat pump installed. HVAC guys made the final connections and we had no problems with the inspections.
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Once you know the basics you can pretty much do your own work. I pulled all the wire and installed the disconects when I had a heat pump installed. HVAC guys made the final connections and we had no problems with the inspections.
Sent from my SM-J320V using Tapatalk
220V is actually two 110V feeds in opposite phase, you "make it" by using a 220 breaker that hooks to both feeds instead of just one.
I'm guessing you check those incoming lines and you have two reading nominally 110/120V and one neutral with no ground running back to the main panel, it's how out buildings used to be done. From what I have read in many places code does not require running the fourth conductor to the main panel (PITA if buried) when replacing or upgrading a panel installed before it was a requirement, but there is some special ground considerations. There is a lot of knowledge on this board, but when I asked about it here no one knew about it. There's at least a few electrician forums out there, you might try one of them or consult an electrician. If you go the forum route you will see lots of debate of legality and wisdom of wiring this way.
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Actually guys, if you look at the picture, on the right side you can see a meter base so that would be a main panel. You just have to pull the meter then replace the panel and reinstall the meter. Permits should be pulled for the job if you want to be all legal and all but very doable.
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It's hard to tell from the picture, but it looks like the aluminum wire on the left is bonded to the neutral bar, which would suggest it's the ground feed. Similiarly it only looks like the one wire is bonded to one service rail. I'm not even sure this panel will support a 220v circuit. I only see 5 bare copper wires and 5 breakers so if it's not the ground feed, the ground bonding is missing. This also doesn't look like service entrance so I doubt it's fed from the meter but from an upstream panel. I would investigate with a meter before making any assumptions.
OP
The meter is about 12 " away, just around the corner and those wires run straight from the meter box and the greyish 2" tubing straight to the box. If that helps.
On the pic on the left, you can see the meter to the right of the box, and the little red tag hanging from it.
That far right breaker is 220, and it runs the well pump at the barn. If I remember that correctly.
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I think you will be good to go then. If in doubt, a meter will tell you easily enough. Kind of hard to tell from a picture. Sounds like its fed directly from the meter, indtesd of a panel with a feeder breaker, in which case you will want a “service entrance” panel with a mains breaker. You’ll probably need to make sure the ground (rods) are per code.
Do you know the wire size or can you read it? If so, you can look up the ampacity rating, which will also be affected by the lug rating (75C typical, but if you don’t know assume 60c, but this won’t be an issue if you get a new panel). You will want a bonded ground of #6 copper. You will want to make sure you size the wire according to any continuous loads, but as I said earlier they’re probably small enough that your 15/20A circuit is more than sufficient. Just need to verify.
Nothing too difficult in what you’re looking to do, just a few details to work through.
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You have everything you need right there. That's a main, not a sub. Should have a disconnect between it and the panel though. A main breaker panel takes care of that, but if you go main lug you'll have no way to kill it without pulling the meter... I would replace the feed since it's so short with a 4 wire to ground it back to the meter can(assuming there's a ground rod and lug there). That gives you room to raise the new box a little and allow your wires room to hook up directly.
