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sgtgeorge

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I write this as a testament to the quality of the design of the 1911 pistol and the quality of Rock Island guns. Recently I purchased a Glock 17 Gen. 5 and a Rock Island Commander sized M1911 pistol. Both were lightly used. I took them both to the range yesterday and ran 50 rounds through each. The Glock performed, well like a Glock. It was shooting slightly to the left and the grouping was OK. I never shot a Glock before so I'm not used to the trigger. Experience and drifting the rear sight will correct the "deficiencies". That Rock Island was a completely different story. Let me start with the ammo, 124 Gr ball 9mm and 230 Gr ball .45, distance: between 3 yards and 10 yards, firing both, at an indoor range. That Rock Island shot to the point of aim at all distances and the groups were incredible, like 3 inches at the worst, when I was hardly aiming. The gun is a natural point and shoot. The trigger pull was exact and light with hardly any reset travel. I was really impressed as to the workings of this "cheap" 1911. From the factory, it came with a fairly heavy barrel with a bell shape at the muzzle to keep it centered, as the gun does not employ a barrel bushing like a traditional 1911, and a full length recoil spring guide rod employed as well. The gun is not "cheap" performance wise. I bought it to use as a truck gun, however I would feel comfortable using this pistol as an EDC. The more I shot this Rock Island, the better it performed. I wish I had brought more ammo, I was having too much fun.
 
Exactly. Anytime someone their Glock sights are off, I always respond with “let me guess, it’s shooting low left??”

You are right! You're the second person who told me that. Why do Glocks shoot low and to the left? Is it because of the trigger finger placement? I would guess so from what I saw in the above video. I shot both weapons the same way, using the same stance, trigger finger placement, etc. From the time of my second week in the police academy, it was drilled into our heads that the trigger finger placement MUST be the tip of the finger, halfway across the pad. We were also taught not to squeeze the trigger but to roll it back. That doesn't sound like it makes sense, but it can be done, with great rapidity. The only instructors I had the utmost respect for were my firearms instructors and my PT Instructors.
 
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For me personally, I have found Glocks just exacerbate any recoil anticipation and other bad technique while a nice SA trigger seems to mask it a bit.

Imo, it's been about good consistent grip pressure from the weak/off hand. I grip them really hard with my left hand. Might be worth a try. I do use the tip of my finger and do not do what PatMac suggests, although on my glocks I do get in deeper about to the first joint.
 
“Proper” trigger finger placement is a hoax. Everyone has different length fingers. Guns are all different sizes with different trigger reach distances.

If the gun remains still while you pull the trigger, it doesn’t know whether you pulled it with your finger tip, the pad, the first crease, or the second crease of your finger. All that matters is the trigger moves straight to the rear without any other disturbance or input in the grip.

The objective of shooting a pistol is to pull the trigger as straight to the rear as possible given the precision needs of the target and the time available to make the shot.

Horizontal error when shooting at a straight-away target is almost exclusively induced by squeezing the grip during the shot.

Glocks exacerbate horizontal error because they have lightweight squared grip frames, mushy heavy-ish breaks, and a good amount of post-break trigger travel. If your dominant hand is sympathetically squeezing with all the other fingers as the trigger breaks, you will force the muzzle to the side as the striker releases tension and your trigger finger slaps the trigger shoe into the frame with ~6 lbs of pressure.

The RIA is more oval in the gripframe, has a heavier frame, and has short trigger travel through and after the break. Those characteristics do a lot to minimize the effects of sympathetic squeezing.

@NKD is spot on. A strong support-hand grip minimizes the error created by squeezing (or “milking”) the grip frame with your dominant hand. You can eliminate that habit altogether by strong-hand only dryfire, focusing on establishing a firm dominant hand grip and experimenting with pressing the trigger straight to the rear like it’s on rails, or like you’re pressing a button. You might find a mental cue like “press the button,” “trigger to the web of my hand,” or “straight to the rear” helps you find the right trigger technique for your gun and your hand.
 
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Shrek McPhee does a masterful job breaking down the hoaxes of this and trigger jerk in his classes.

Just one of his videos:

 
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NKD said:
For me personally, I have found Glocks just exacerbate any recoil anticipation and other bad technique while a nice SA trigger seems to mask it a bit.

Imo, it's been about good consistent grip pressure from the weak/off hand. I grip them really hard with my left hand. Might be worth a try. I do use the tip of my finger and do not do what PatMac suggests, although on my glocks I do get in deeper about to the first joint.
Click to expand...
THIS
something about that grip shape just amplifies errors for me. gen 2/3 are misreable for me. somehow 4/5 work okay. I can overcome it, but i have to focus on the grip and trigger pull more than the sights, which is not how i want to spend my time.
I've helped a person or two figure out that their sights were just fine, and that they were pushing into the shot in anticipation.
 
Chuckman said:
Shrek McPhee does a masterful job breaking down the hoaxes of this and trigger jerk in his classes.

Just one of his videos:

Click to expand...


That dude has no doubt been there and done that and I am not pretending I know as much or more than him.

But that exercise didn't prove a whole lot to me for my discipline. I'm a gamer and freely admit that. In my tiny little segment of the shooting sports, I'm a decent shooter. If I were shooting my race pistol and someone did what he did in the video, it would be no different. But he's shooting at a target that's almost within bad breath distance. I'm trying to shoot a steel plate that might be as small as 6" that's 15 yards away, as fast as humanly possible. Trigger disruption is a thing and you can see it with a red dot more than you can iron sights. My grip is correct, very tight, and I've got a gas pedal. I'm gripping that thing like it owes me money with a heavy bias on the support hand not the strong hand.

For up close and personal defense, you won't see a lot of disruption in the group but the farther away you get, the more important it is to reduce any sympathetic movement of your strong hand during trigger press. A good trigger really helps in this pursuit.

Yes, the grip is MUCH more important than trigger manipulation, but how the trigger is pressed does make a small difference that may or may not matter depending on what you're doing. For most folks, they are best served by focussing on grip and not so much on trigger press.
 
Studentofthegun said:
That dude has no doubt been there and done that and I am not pretending I know as much or more than him.

But that exercise didn't prove a whole lot to me for my discipline. I'm a gamer and freely admit that. In my tiny little segment of the shooting sports, I'm a decent shooter. If I were shooting my race pistol and someone did what he did in the video, it would be no different. But he's shooting at a target that's almost within bad breath distance. I'm trying to shoot a steel plate that might be as small as 6" that's 15 yards away, as fast as humanly possible. Trigger disruption is a thing and you can see it with a red dot more than you can iron sights. My grip is correct, very tight, and I've got a gas pedal. I'm gripping that thing like it owes me money with a heavy bias on the support hand not the strong hand.

For up close and personal defense, you won't see a lot of disruption in the group but the farther away you get, the more important it is to reduce any sympathetic movement of your strong hand during trigger press. A good trigger really helps in this pursuit.

Yes, the grip is MUCH more important than trigger manipulation, but how the trigger is pressed does make a small difference that may or may not matter depending on what you're doing. For most folks, they are best served by focussing on grip and not so much on trigger press.
Click to expand...

No doubt, and you have great points.

His point is people bitch about the gun ("My Glock shoots low and to the left") and use excuses like trigger jerk, but it's all about good mechanics, as you perfectly state. He uses the ratchet test as an education tool to illustrate his points (and yours) about good mechanics.
 
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