Concealed Carry in combination with Less Lethal Tools

Slosolo2

Slosolo2

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Since most people carry handguns I guess this is the best place to ask my question.
I carry OC spray in addition to a handgun.
Today I've been told I'm a complete fool for carrying the OC spray with a gun. This came up in a non gun forum but 2 different individuals seemed to have quite strong feelings on the topic.
Seems completely logical to me that there might be some situations between shouting and shooting that merit a physical but not deadly response. Am I completely wrong?

Does anyone else carry some kind of less lethal option?
 
Seems like a reasonable strategy to me. I’d be interested to know why they objected so strenuously, unless they think you should immediately go to gun.

I guess there would be circumstances where first presenting your spray/knife/anything-less-lethal at a gun fight might not be optimal when you might not have time to switch your phaser from stun to kill.

I have carried spray in the past, and probably still should, but I’ve only got but so many pockets.
 
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So let me get this straight. Carrying a non lethal option to deal with a situation is a bad idea? What kind of idiot thinks that? Or because you have a non lethal option you can't or shouldn't use the lethal option? Again, what kind of idiot thinks that? Carry what you want. Use the right tool for the problem.
 
Because the naysayers are basement BJJ, krav, dim mak commandos. Not to mention they’ve never had a fight in their life. LTL is extremely useful, not to mention an instant “helpful fact” in the defense afterwards of a shooting. Any professional LEO carries LTL off-duty as well to avoid the “why didn't you” questions afterwards or to comply with a lot of departmental regs that direct you to carry LTL if you’re armed off-duty.
Why limit yourself to only a lethal response? Odds are you’ll never need either one, but the odds are even higher you’ll not need the gun.
And, just tossing this out there. I’m getting too old to wrassle with 18-year olds with any type of restraint. They will out-cardio, out-strength, and out-speed me. I need to end it quickly. The optics of me having to snap an arm, shoulder, or wrist is not something I want anybody (especially my kids) to see. I’ve deployed OC literally several hundred times and used correctly it will end the fight very quickly.
And, aggressive dogs change their minds quickly too.
 
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OC spray, knife, pistol: I usually have 2 out of 3 on me, depending on where I’m going. I spent some time finding a holster that will let me deploy Fox Green faster than I can get in a pocket. Seeing rioters stopping cars makes me especially happy to have the spray handy.
 
I carry pepper spray all the time and it seems silly to argue against having a ltl option. The reality for me is that I am more likely to have to deal with an aggressive loose dog than anything else, so if I can stop the problem without shooting someone's pet and getting arrested for firing a gun within city limits, yeah, I'd prefer that option.
 
You wouldn't want to engage in any grappling techniques if you are wearing a gun just because the other guy could get to it before you did. OC is a good option to avoid the physical conflict. I carry an OC Kubaton, knife and gun regularly though. The trick is realizing which one is appropriate for the situation. I find it best not to fight though.
 
Slosolo2 said:
Since most people carry handguns I guess this is the best place to ask my question.
I carry OC spray in addition to a handgun.
Today I've been told I'm a complete fool for carrying the OC spray with a gun. This came up in a non gun forum but 2 different individuals seemed to have quite strong feelings on the topic.
Seems completely logical to me that there might be some situations between shouting and shooting that merit a physical but not deadly response. Am I completely wrong?

Does anyone else carry some kind of less lethal option?
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If I'm pissed enough to pepper spray or stab someone I'd be fine with shooting the bastard. And it assures I'll never be pissed at that person again.
 
And good luck finding OC spray right now.

I’ve got a couple of small cans that probably ought to be replaced, and aren’t big enough to handle a group of misguided individuals.
 
I just realized I just posted the same question in a separate post. Feel free to merge.

I carry pepperspray myself.
 
Thanks for the replies.
This question came from a discussion of the Orion OH incident earlier this week. I said it was a perfect scenario for spray. One guy came in with a strong opinion expressed only in invective with no specific reasons for his opinion. Despite calling me stupid he did later say he hoped I never found out why it was a bad idea so I guess he wasn't all bad. The other said very confidently that if you have a less lethal option when you shoot someone then you're going to jail. I don't know his location so maybe that's the case where he lives but I'm fairly sure in the Carolinas you would be fine if you met the basic requirements for a self defense claim. I was also pretty sure they were either trolls or just idiots so I didn't engage them about it, however I did try to find some info online. I searched several well known trainers without luck and the only people I could find discussing carrying a gun and oc at the same time were Chuck Haggard and the ASP guy (who's a Haggard acolyte) so I thought I'd ask here and at least go for a confirmation bias win.
 
fieldgrade said:
And good luck finding OC spray right now.

I’ve got a couple of small cans that probably ought to be replaced, and aren’t big enough to handle a group of misguided individuals.
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Yup, I thought about replacements and bigger canisters a while back, but me who hesitates is lost.
 
Tailhunter said:
Do you feel in todays environment, you are going to jail whether you use a gun, a knife or spray if you live/happen to be in an area controlled by democrats?
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Sadly, it probably depends on whether the attacker is browner than me or not, especially given the current politics of our DA and City Council. But even if that wasn't the case, in general yes, I fully expect to be arrested and have my weapon confiscated after a use of force event, even if I was clearly the victim. Andrew Branca advises demanding medical treatment after an event because (a) the adrenaline dump may mask an actual injury (b) if you're older and/or not in excellent condition it can cause unexpected heart issues, (c) being handcuffed to a hospital bed is better than being locked in a holding cell in the jail.

Perhaps some of our LEO members can comment about SOP, given the majority of folks they encounter who claim self defense are lying.
 
Yup. it's completely idiotic. that's why you'll never see anything but a pistol on any cop's belt. wait...
 
chiefjason said:
That works out to 5 oz of product. Slightly smaller than your average bear spray, like that makes sense. And 2x larger than anything you would carry in a pocket. My large can is 1.7 oz and I cannot pocket carry that. So if it does not look like a small fire extinguisher you should be OK.
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I'm glad he posted it because with all the swarming of vehicles we've seen so far and my expectations for conditions on Nov. 4 I was going to add an extinguisher sized bear spray to the truck. I try not to be in Charlotte any more than necessary but I only live 1/4 mile from the state line and cross in and out of NC all the time.
 
I don’t take issue with anyone carrying pepper spray if they want but personally it doesn’t fit with my carry philosophy.

I carry for the sole purpose stopping a threat to life or grave bodily injury. I am not a cop. I have no desire to break up fights or protests.

If I feel like I’m in fear for my life (or the life of someone I deem worthy of my protection) my only aim will be to stop that threat in the most efficient manner possible.
 
I carry a knife and a gun. I'm too old to risk spraying someone and getting backspray in my face and then being SOL. I'm either getting the hell out of Dodge or going straight to being in fear for my life.
 
Chdamn said:
I don’t take issue with anyone carrying pepper spray if they want but personally it doesn’t fit with my carry philosophy.

I carry for the sole purpose stopping a threat to life or grave bodily injury. I am not a cop. I have no desire to break up fights or protests.

If I feel like I’m in fear for my life (or the life of someone I deem worthy of my protection) my only aim will be to stop that threat in the most efficient manner possible.
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To add to this. Make sure that there is only one side of the story to be told. Your side. Dead men tell no tales.

Sent from my SM-J320V using Tapatalk
 
Lots of people out there have camera phones that they use to try to catch someone offending them or harming them. Try to make the movies that they take such that the videos might be able to help you out later if you can. Act scared and in danger and be dramatic if you can. Ones favorable to you, however, have a way of not showing up afterwards. A good body cam would be nice but somewhat impractical.
 
Like @Chdamn I am not a cop... I have no responsibility to escalate levels of force when threatened. However, I do like options. I have an X26 taser and I have bear spray (primarily for bears). If the option presents itself I will try the LTL option... IF it's an option... I'd rather fog a group of hipsters than have to run them down or shoot them if reasonable. I'm prepared to do whatever I'm forced to though....
 
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I think it’s an excellent idea and in fact I’ve been carrying OC for the past 6mo or so regularly. Particularly, since I found POM OC ($13 on Amazon —-> https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07FWJGBLR/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_xBfaFb8EF6NEH ). It’s as easy as carrying a pocket knife, so I’m always carrying a pistol, knife, and OC. I also keep larger cans of OC in my vehicles just in case. I can’t think of a real downside to having more options, especially less lethal.

It was discussed not too long ago that while you may be justified in shooting, sometimes it’s a much better option to simply use OC.
Case and point: an aggressive or questionable charging dog encountered while walking in the neighborhood. I’d rather be labeled the guy who pepper sprayed the dog vs the guy who shot & killed that dog and created a whole scene with police etc (that would be the perception at least).
C02230EC-FE6D-458C-BE94-250E90101316.jpeg
 
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Chdamn said:
I don’t take issue with anyone carrying pepper spray if they want but personally it doesn’t fit with my carry philosophy.

I carry for the sole purpose stopping a threat to life or grave bodily injury. I am not a cop. I have no desire to break up fights or protests.

If I feel like I’m in fear for my life (or the life of someone I deem worthy of my protection) my only aim will be to stop that threat in the most efficient manner possible.
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This is my position also. I am 4 months out of shoulder surgery in my dominant arm. I cannot risk going hand to hand with someone without risking serious injuries. I will stay away from problem areas and retreat if there is a threat... block my retreat and it will be a bad day for everyone.
 
frakncylons said:
Yea, I often carry spray. For dog issues in my neighborhood mostly.
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Sorry to ressurect, but I thought I'd say I can confirm it works like a champ for the above purpose. Just hosed 2 muts that ran up on us. Instead of dealing with the cops, I'm sitting down eating dinner.
 
Since it has been resurrected I want to add something that those of you who carry less than lethal may not have considered.

The way our court system seems to work (contrary to the constitution) is that if there is a liberal DA they will try to find any reason they can to bring charges against someone who uses a gun in self defense.

If you are carrying less than lethal items I believe they would absolutely question why you didn't try to use those instead of resorting to lethal force. I mean the attacker was 10 feet away when he brandished that knife citizen. Did it not occur to you that you should at least attempt to use your pepper spray instead of shooting the man? You had plenty of time to switch to your gun if the pepper spray failed. Don't you think it was a bit rash of you to resort to lethal force when you had other options at your disposal? Why would you carry them if you didn't intend to follow a prescribed escalation of force?
 
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Chdamn said:
Since it has been resurrected I want to add something that those of you who carry less than lethal may not have considered.

The way our court system seems to work (contrary to the constitution) is that if there is a liberal DA they will try to find any reason they can to bring charges against someone who uses a gun in self defense.

If you are carrying less than lethal items I believe they would absolutely question why you didn't try to use those instead of resorting to lethal force. I mean the attacker was 10 feet away when he brandished that knife citizen. Did it not occur to you that you should at least attempt to use your pepper spray instead of shooting the man? You had plenty of time to switch to your gun if the pepper spray failed. Don't you think it was a bit rash of you to resort to lethal force when you had other options at your disposal? Why would you carry them if you didn't intend to follow a prescribed escalation of force?
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I agree with this sentiment, and it is on my mental radar. I generally do not carry spray, but the neighborhood is a good example of when I do as there is a known dog issue.

There is also the potential for say a fight or simple assault that WOULD warrant less lethal but not lethal. Then the use of less lethal could escalate the attacker to bring a knife or gun out. In that scenario, the use of less lethal could escalate the situation which is no bueno.

I generally commit myself to three ways to deal with an attack if I'm carrying a firearm. Either deadly force if warranted, using words to de-escalate, or running away.
 
fieldgrade said:
And good luck finding OC spray right now.
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Check out Botach.com
I purchased 3 of the jumbo 12oz SABRE 5.0, mk-9x "streamers" sprays a foam stream 20-25'
$39.95 in stock
 
Related question: My wife (for a variety of reasons) isn't going to conceal carry.

Can you folks help explain if she should carry pepper spray, bear spray, or OC for
  • purse and/or car running around town in the Triangle
  • hiking in the woods
 
poller said:
Related question: My wife (for a variety of reasons) isn't going to conceal carry.

Can you folks help explain if she should carry pepper spray, bear spray, or OC for
  • purse and/or car running around town in the Triangle
  • hiking in the woods
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It’s better than nothing. Although my wife had some on her keychain years ago. Squirted herself in the face with it when she grabbed her keys in the ignition wrong.
Make-up was a mess. :D
 
fieldgrade said:
It’s better than nothing. Although my wife had some on her keychain years ago. Squirted herself in the face with it when she grabbed her keys in the ignition wrong.
Make-up was a mess. :D
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Great visual.

I'm more trying to understand which is the best option for each scenario...
 
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