diagnose a 1911 problem

GymB

Picking it up slowly.
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So @BatteryOaksBilly got me to go to the range today. Took one pistol, a commander length 1911 in 38super, and 400 rounds of WWB. It looked like this.
0821D269-B7DD-4640-99E1-38B87DBFB80B.jpeg

A little more background, I bought the pistol used a while ago, haven’t done anything with it or shot it. Pulled the slide off and wiped away some dried crusty grease mixed with a little rust from the rails before adding a few drops of oil. Did all the shooting with the three stainless magazines. They are McCormick shooting stars that I got used today by mistake and I wanted to try them before deciding to keep them or not, no idea what their history is. In .45 I have had them dive into the feed ramp, but didn’t have that problem today.

Had intended to shoot 400 rounds, but stopped at 300 because the web of my strong hand has gotten soft from shooting the Sig P220.

In 300 rounds I had 4 identical stoppages, all with the same mag. The gun would feed the first 4 or 5 rounds fine, and then the slide would lock back. Hitting the slide release was all that was required to continue. It’s always possible that my support hand thumb happened to hit it, but I don’t think so, and that’s be odd given that it was the same mag.

I’ll clean the gun and maybe replace the spring in that mag. Anything else you (the collective you) suggest?

Oh, and today I reaffirmed that I love the way a 1911 fits my hand!
 
Either you fat fingered it or
It sounds like the nose of a bullet in the magazine is touching the slide stop causing it to engage. Check for copper rubbing off on the tip of the slide stop where it engages the follower.
Did you shoot it any after replacing the spring?
 
Generic thought, but I am not a 1911 guy so I defer to future advice.

If the slide is locking back, it “thinks” there is no round to chamber. Is there anything on the mag that could be snagging the round and causing it to not feed all the way up the mag? If not, I would guess a problem with the mag spring.
 
Is this the one from Justin's auction? I never had a chance to fire it, was wondering if you ever got around to it. As for the problem, I would say mag issue since it happened on the same one each time, but I'm definitely no expert.
 
Either you fat fingered it or
It sounds like the nose of a bullet in the magazine is touching the slide stop causing it to engage. Check for copper rubbing off on the tip of the slide stop where it engages the follower.
Did you shoot it any after replacing the spring?
Haven’t replaced the spring, but will check the slide stop when I take it down.
 
Is this the one from Justin's auction? I never had a chance to fire it, was wondering if you ever got around to it. As for the problem, I would say mag issue since it happened on the same one each time, but I'm definitely no expert.
No, that’s a government size and I’ve actually been thinking about sending it to Justin, when’t he turn 21?
 
No, that’s a government size and I’ve actually been thinking about sending it to Justin, when’t he turn 21?
Ahh... that's right, I completely forgot!

Funny you say that and this will blow a lot of people's minds. His birthday was Monday and the wife and boy were back in town for it. I got to send you a text, you'll get a kick out of. Lol
 
I had this same issue with an ASTRA A100, I always felt that the problem was "short" bullets sliding forward in the magazine thus allowing the slide to catch.
mind you this was a 17 round magazine and would sometimes "catch" after the 13th round or so... is there extra space in that magazine for the bullets to move forward?
 
Is this the one from Justin's auction? I never had a chance to fire it, was wondering if you ever got around to it. As for the problem, I would say mag issue since it happened on the same one each time, but I'm definitely no expert.
What about swapping the springs between a good and the bad mag? That might pinpoint the issue.
 
I had this same issue with an ASTRA A100, I always felt that the problem was "short" bullets sliding forward in the magazine thus allowing the slide to catch.
mind you this was a 17 round magazine and would sometimes "catch" after the 13th round or so... is there extra space in that magazine for the bullets to move forward?
I’ll check.

What about swapping the springs between a good and the bad mag? That might pinpoint the issue.
Another good idea, I’ll swap the springs and follower. That should narrow it down to the shell or guts.

Throw
The
Magazine
Out


Problem solved. That’s why you number magazines. Second failure of any type.... the mag is history.
Well, this is for range use, so no reason to trash it. Be nice if it can be made to work, but not critical.

Did @BatteryOaksBilly take your $1,000?
My original post should have made it clear that with a used gun I’d never cleaned nor fired and used magazines that I just acquired today, there was no intention to bet on this one. The intent of the bet is to determine how comfortable you are depending upon a certain pistol, nobody in their right mind would depend on any pistol with which they had no experience and no information about its history, so it would have made no sense to bet. If I’d gotten lucky I wouldn’t have claimed the prize either, although I would have claimed bragging rights.
 
It’s always possible that my support hand thumb happened to hit it, but I don’t think so, and that’s be odd given that it was the same mag.

I'm of the learned opinion that a bullet is nudging the stop and engaging it. When that happens, it normally only partially engages with the notch. One way to find out if you're bumping it is to shoot the gun with that magazine using one hand...assuming that you're right handed.

If it still happens, use a caliper to measure the width of the magazine just below the feed lips and compare it to the others. My bet is that it's a little wider, allowing the top cartridge to "rattle" around and touch the tip of the stop lug as it rises into feeding position when the slide uncovers it. You may be able to fix the magazine by removing the guts and squeezing it LIGHTLY in a vise.
 
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It sounds like the nose of a bullet in the magazine is touching the slide stop causing it to engage.
I'm of the learned opinion that a bullet is nudging the stop and engaging it.
Terrible photo, but the circled line is clearly brass. I’ll shoot it to failure and then see if there is a bullet touching it, although it may move back in recoil. Will also measure the width of the mags.

41BF0692-7C51-4CC8-8FAE-780ED0D2F3A9.jpeg
 
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Best solution for 1911 problems is to remove the 1911 and upgrade to a better part.
Lol, the main reason a Glock is so succesful is the magazine shell is much less likely to deform while in use. The metal 1911 magazines can carry stress and cause all kinds of boo-boos. Apparantly plastic has a place in firearms after all.
 
Lol, the main reason a Glock is so succesful is the magazine shell is much less likely to deform while in use. The metal 1911 magazines can carry stress and cause all kinds of boo-boos. Apparantly plastic has a place in firearms after all.

True, this is what I was getting at. Browning was a genius but the magazine and slide lock will always be weak points in the design...this is why magazines tend to be the cause of most problems. I'd say the 1911 is in my top 5 favorite pistol designs but I accept it for what it is.

My, that was helpful.
It is the best advice I have ever heeded. You have the option of measuring, bending and replacing magazines, tuning and tweaking, spending money, looking for in spec guns, or just moving on to a more reliable design.
 
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Browning was a genius but the magazine and slide lock will always be weak points in the design...this is why magazines tend to be the cause of most problems.

Not as long as we stick to the magazine that Browning designed instead of trying to make it fit our idea of what it should be.

The farther we stray from JMB's specs, the more trouble we have.
 
Not as long as we stick to the magazine that Browning designed instead of trying to make it fit our idea of what it should be.

The farther we stray from JMB's specs, the more trouble we have.

True, but the original spec magazines still bend, have a less than ideal follower design, and rely on a very small engagement with the slide lock to function. While they tend to create less trouble, they are not trouble free and not as trouble free as numerous modern magazine designs in other pistols.

So even if we have magazines hand crafted by JMB himself, the magazine is still a weak point in the design. It doesn't take much deviation from spec either through use or manufacture to create a malfunction.
 
Not as long as we stick to the magazine that Browning designed instead of trying to make it fit our idea of what it should be.
Think I can just pound a dimple into the shooting star follower? Well, obviously I can, do you think it’s a good idea?
 
I've tried that and it's not as easy as you think. They bend when you whack em.
 
True, but the original spec magazines still bend, have a less than ideal follower design, and rely on a very small engagement with the slide lock to function.

No, they don't and a small engagement is all that's needed as long as the follower is angled correctly and the elevator is of the proper dimension and made of the right stuff. The specs of the slidestop lug also factor into that equation.

As far as most modern magazines...what I often refer to as "Gamer" magazines...you couldn't throw one and hit me with it. I won't allow'em in the yard.

What a lot of people don't know is that the original followers were hardened to the point that they couldn't be cut with a file. The magazine tubes were treated and drawn to a spring temper to keep them from being bent under normal use. WW2 and the need for expediency changed that, but WW2 magazines weren't intended to last for the life of the gun, though they did hold up for a long time. I have several WW2 contract magazines that were well worn when I got them in the 60s and 70s and they're still chuggin' along. In fairness, I did change the springs about 30 years ago, so there's that.

So even if we have magazines hand crafted by JMB himself, the magazine is still a weak point in the design.

And again, that hasn't been my experience, and I've been wrenchin'on Johnny's toy since 1965.


Think I can just pound a dimple into the shooting star follower? Well, obviously I can, do you think it’s a good idea?

No and no.

The reason for the dimple in the .45 follower is recoil and the slide banging into the frame causing the last round to jump the follower. The .38 Super's follower doesn't really need one, but it could probably benefit from an extra power Wolff spring.
 
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I wou
I’ll check.


Another good idea, I’ll swap the springs and follower. That should narrow it down to the shell or guts.


Well, this is for range use, so no reason to trash it. Be nice if it can be made to work, but not critical.


My original post should have made it clear that with a used gun I’d never cleaned nor fired and used magazines that I just acquired today, there was no intention to bet on this one. The intent of the bet is to determine how comfortable you are depending upon a certain pistol, nobody in their right mind would depend on any pistol with which they had no experience and no information about its history, so it would have made no sense to bet. If I’d gotten lucky I wouldn’t have claimed the prize either, although I would have claimed bragging rights.


l would take it a step further swap spring with one mag and follower with another mag and see which one fails if any
 
True, this is what I was getting at. Browning was a genius but the magazine and slide lock will always be weak points in the design...this is why magazines tend to be the cause of most problems. I'd say the 1911 is in my top 5 favorite pistol designs but I accept it for what it is.
JMB never had plastic to work with but I feel he would have seen the advantages of the substance just like brother Gaston.
 
What presently made magazines are closest to the original design?

You can get GI Hardball magazines from Check Mate as well as the only real improvement in magazines...the "Hybrid" design, which came from Colt in the early 80s. It combines the tapered, slow/gradual release of the original with the abrupt but slightly later timed release point of the wadcutter magazine. That one will feed any reasonable bullet shape and style you care to try, as well as the H&G #68 SWC.

Colt actually took a page from the old AMU armorers who developed a forming die that put the timed release point into the GI magazines feed lips...refined it and put it into mass production through Check Mate Industries, and later Metalform and OKAY Industries when they accepted them as vendors for their OEM magazines. Right now, Check Mate is the only vendor that will sell those particular magazines to the general public, unless Metalform has changed their policy recently. Otherwise, they only deliver them to Colt. I advise sticking with the standard 7 round sticks with the original follower and pop the extra couple bucks for the 11 pound Wolff spring.

At one time, you could call and get them by asking for the "Tuner Special" magazine. They've since changed some people in the sales and service department, so that may only result in confusion on the other end. I helped them with the development of their patented "Bull Nose" follower and extended length 8 round magazine several years ago, along with a gauge that allowed them to set the correct final release point for the full tapered GI Hardball magazines. Wasn't a lot of effort involved but it did net me a dozen free magazines, so it worked out okay.
 
l would take it a step further swap spring with one mag and follower with another mag and see which one fails if any

I doubt that would produce any useful results. The problem is likely with the mag tube itself allowing the round to shift laterally toward the slidestop lug. In every instance of this I've seen, it was due to a slightly oversized magazine or an out of spec slidestop lug and sometimes a combination of both...and if it was the lug, it would do it with all the magazines. I was usually able to correct it by relieving the lug at the contact point. Careful. A little goes a long way. Trial and error is the way to go.
 
It is the best advice I have ever heeded. You have the option of measuring, bending and replacing magazines, tuning and tweaking, spending money, looking for in spec guns, or just moving on to a more reliable design.

It's a shame that I stopped doing the workshops a few years back. I think you could've benefited from one.
 
I doubt that would produce any useful results. The problem is likely with the mag tube itself allowing the round to shift laterally toward the slidestop lug. In every instance of this I've seen, it was due to a slightly oversized magazine or an out of spec slidestop lug and sometimes a combination of both...and if it was the lug, it would do it with all the magazines. I was usually able to correct it by relieving the lug at the contact point. Careful. A little goes a long way. Trial and error is the way to go.
it would just prove that it is the mag body my thought is if you are going to change the spring and follower use 2 different mags and and whichever fails is the bad part tells which part is bad (most like mag body) in one troubleshooting step
 
Based on all the responses I presume that the spring might be a bit worn and/or the mag lips a touch wide, the result being that the round can jostle a bit hitting the mag catch. I’ll test that theory when I get new springs in a week or so.

@John Travis I was very happy to have attended one of your workshops, in spite of the coffee.
 
Based on all the responses I presume that the spring might be a bit worn and/or the mag lips a touch wide,

Assuming that it's not the shooter's own thumb, when the slidestop moves up and locks with ammunition in the magazine, neither the spring nor the follower can touch the slidestop. Only the cartridge can do that.

@John Travis I was very happy to have attended one of your workshops, in spite of the coffee.

I've since switched over to a different coffee. The old one was a little weak. :D
 
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Lol, the main reason a Glock is so succesful is the magazine shell is much less likely to deform while in use. The metal 1911 magazines can carry stress and cause all kinds of boo-boos. Apparantly plastic has a place in firearms after all.
Remember the original Glock 17 magazine? It deformed easily, and had to be redesigned.

Metal and plastic both can carry stress. Pass the popcorn, please, Draco!
 
Remember the original Glock 17 magazine? It deformed easily, and had to be redesigned.

Metal and plastic both can carry stress. Pass the popcorn, please, Draco!

Sorry, ate it all lol. The mans been doing it longer than Ive been alive and this still happens. Never ceases to amaze me.
Tuner diagnosed one for me through pm's at the other place. I no longer own a 1911 (blasphemy!), but @John Travis just know some people around here value your knowledge.
 
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