Don't Shoot w/ Thread Protector on Muzzle Device

Bmmechan

Bmmechan

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I recently had my barrel threaded and a muzzle device put on for a 308 savage 10 20" medium contour, 5r 1:10 barrel. And before this I had good accuracy with 168gr match ammo, Hornaday and FGMM. I am still very new to precision shooting and having worked through some issues I was having and testing different match ammo, my accuracy was crap. So after research I read that 1:10 twist could prefer the heavier 175gr and its been a while since I shot it, I have made a bunch of changes to my rifle (stock, scope, etc.). So I purchased one box of FGMM 175 Sierra Matchking and I was disappointed in my performance. I have been working really hard on my form, consistency, trigger manipulation. . . after 4 consecutive groups of 4 rounds I was Mad!!! you can see my results below on the middle diamond (1st set of 4, then made adjustment to zero and shot 2nd set of 4) and upper left and right groups. And I swore that I had better accuracy with the tread protector I have on it, my muzzle device is a Griffin armament taper mount paladin brake , so i took the thread protector off, and shot my last 4 rounds, mad and quicker than I did the other 4 sets and man oh man. . . I couldn't stop laughing. You can see the results on the bottom left diamond.

So for those who use thread protectors or other stuff attached to their muzzle end, make sure you test without it in the beginning and not like me. . . after many boxes of ammo :)
 

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Djstorm100 said:
No the protector fault. Who did the threading?

Vertical stringing is breathing.
Click to expand...

I should have mentioned this was in the prone, slow fire at 100 yards, bolt action. I normally exhale and hold it to take the shot.

The thread protector and muzzle device are both griffin armament manufactured.
 
Or to much meat was taken off the barrel.

Or the taken off material allows the barrels mouth or open due to relaxation. We are talking about 0.001 here. I've seen it happen and it's happen to me on a barrel I cut. The metal was on the soft side.
 
I had a barrel threaded by a guy that’s a rockstar, can’t say that he did anything wrong, but it shot like crap. He tried again, some problem so I figured barrel problem and I ended up pitching it.

It happens.
 
He said it shoots good with the thread protector off but badly with the protector on... wouldn't that point to the thread protector as the problem piece and not the barrel or crown?
 
Thread protector can act to stiff up the barrel at the muzzle., depending on the class thread that was cut.
 
Catfish said:
He said it shoots good with the thread protector off but badly with the protector on... wouldn't that point to the thread protector as the problem piece and not the barrel or crown?
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Could be, or could be threads aren’t perfectly straight. He says thread protector, but I think he might mean muzzle brake.
 
JimB said:
Could be, or could be threads aren’t perfectly straight. He says thread protector, but I think he might mean muzzle brake.
Click to expand...

Actually if you follow the links in the original post OP is referencing a thread protector on a muzzle device designed to interface with a suppressor (image below). I'm not 100% sure that a thread protector would be compatible with that brake. Either way I think the issue is with the thread protector on the muzzle brake, at least that is my working theory.

https://www.griffinarmament.com/Taper-Mount-Paladin-Brake-p/tmpb5824.htm

https://www.griffinarmament.com/Griffin-Armament-Taper-Mount-thread-protector-p/tmtp.htm

TMPB5824-2T.jpg
 
I didn’t see the links, thanks for pulling them out. So the muzzle brake is always mounted and if the OP adds the thread protector to it accuracy degrades. Seems improbable.
 
JimB said:
I didn’t see the links, thanks for pulling them out. So the muzzle brake is always mounted and if the OP adds the thread protector to it accuracy degrades. Seems improbable.
Click to expand...

Makes sense to me. I'd like to see a pic of his setup, but if the thread protector is wide enough to overlap into the brake chamber it could cause a good bit of disruption. Add to that that is could be loose and it's compounded...
 
We are talking about a thread protector on a suppressor mount here. Are you suggesting the barrel would shoot crap with the can mounted in place of the thread protector? Because the taper mount systems are somewhat “precision” in nature, especially Griffin cans which return to same position every time.

I say there’s another issue at hand rather than the TP
 
Upon further review, after re-reading the original post and closely reviewing the five groups in the picture, I'm inclined to believe the group variability is shooter error/variability/inconsistency/inexperience and not anything attributable to the muzzle device, thread protector, or threading job. We all have our off days shooting. :(

The first groups are actually pretty good except they exhibit horizontal stringing with a very slight vertical dispersion. The 3rd group (upper left) has half the horizontal distribution but 3x the vertical. The fourth (upper right) is a mix but better, and the final group (lower left) is just a bit tighter. Sometimes when you reduce the input from the biological component of the system (think less) and just let things happen the results will surprise you. :D
 
Bmmechan said:
So for those who use thread protectors or other stuff attached to their muzzle end, make sure you test without it in the beginning and not like me. . . after many boxes of ammo
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+100

Tailhunter said:
Can the extra part change the harmonics of the barrel.
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Spot on!
Any device attached to a barrel or anything touching a barrel will absolutely affect barrel harmonics. To varying degrees the harmonic change will be Positive, Negative , or Neutral , but it will change.

Just as Bmmechan discovered I went through , somewhat, the same dilemma with a couple of my rigs. with one bang stick I had 6 different muzzle devices and started with NO device and tried all that I had and hands down there was definitely a change with each device.

IMHO harmonics are the most over looked and least understood of the many variables involved in getting a rig tuned to shoot well.
 
Interesting....

I have the same rifle but factory threaded and installed a single chamber brake, though I also have the paladin brake. I don't yet have my can so I haven't even shot it yet. I also have found 168 FGMM to shoot exceptionally well in this gun. I don't plan on buying the thread protector since I won't be banging this rifle around.
I'll keep this in mind next time I take this rifle out.
 
Bmmechan said:
So for those who use thread protectors or other stuff attached to their muzzle end, make sure you test without it in the beginning and not like me. . . after many boxes of ammo
Click to expand...


Tailhunter said:
Can the extra part change the harmonics of the barrel.
Does changing the load, increase accuracy with the device on?
Click to expand...


Jerzsubbie said:
I have the same rifle but factory threaded and installed a single chamber brake, though I also have the paladin brake. I don't yet have my can so I haven't even shot it yet. I also have found 168 FGMM to shoot exceptionally well in this gun. I don't plan on buying the thread protector since I won't be banging this rifle around.
I'll keep this in mind next time I take this rifle out.
Click to expand...

I've taken the time to post the following to help Clear up the Harmonics question because it does make a difference. Between the vids there are several methods presented / talked about to "Tame a Barrel." I also believe that through the years many shooters got (somewhat ) lucky in getting their rigs shooting well with "Load Development~s" and never explored other methods to Tame a Barrel. Having said that, IMHO, I think other methods have been forgotten about, discounted, etc, because others obtained desired results just by changing loads and Never explored other methods.

Safe Shooting








SmartStock Accuracy Tuning System


Rifle Vibrations & Harmonics EXPLAINED
 
I
Bunsen said:
Actually if you follow the links in the original post OP is referencing a thread protector on a muzzle device designed to interface with a suppressor (image below). I'm not 100% sure that a thread protector would be compatible with that brake. Either way I think the issue is with the thread protector on the muzzle brake, at least that is my working theory.

https://www.griffinarmament.com/Taper-Mount-Paladin-Brake-p/tmpb5824.htm

https://www.griffinarmament.com/Griffin-Armament-Taper-Mount-thread-protector-p/tmtp.htm

TMPB5824-2T.jpg
Click to expand...
I have this exact brake but I am not following the part of where the Thread Protector goes. The only threads are for the Paladin Suppressor. OP, give us a pic of your setup!
 
VA_GENTLEMAN said:
I

I have this exact brake but I am not following the part of where the Thread Protector goes. The only threads are for the Paladin Suppressor. OP, give us a pic of your setup!
Click to expand...

Nevermind, I see where they have protectors for the taper mounts... My thoughts would be the harmonics, or weight change of the end barrel.
 
Pink_Vapor said:
??? Here's my TBAC brake and flash hider for my Ultra-7, Ultra-9 & 30CB9.
Click to expand...


If you get a direct thread on can..there is a brake (or resembles a brake) that is red loctie in the can.

All barrel flex to a degree, All barrels have harmonics. This is why load development is critical. Taming the pressure ripple behind the bullet so that the bullet exits at nearly the same time the barrel flex to X point.
 
Pink_Vapor said:
??? Here's my TBAC brake and flash hider for my Ultra-7, Ultra-9 & 30CB9.
View attachment 38083
Click to expand...

*correction.

The new ultra series offers muzzle mounting options. I'm old skool still.

Serious question, do the pro's use direct thread or muzzle mounts in precision shooting?
I was always told that direct thread was preferred if accuracy was the goal.
 
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Slacker said:
*correction.

The new ultra series offers muzzle mounting options. I'm old skool still.

Serious question, do the pro's use direct thread or muzzle mounts in precision shooting?
I was always told that direct thread was preferred if accuracy was the goal.
Click to expand...
TBAC offers both. Before I bought I asked Zac, the owner of TBAC, he told me they hadn't seen any difference in accuracy. I was concerned with the small fine Ti threads getting damaged more than the larger ones on the brake/hider mounts.
 
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Slacker said:
*correction.

The new ultra series offers muzzle mounting options. I'm old skool still.

Serious question, do the pro's use direct thread or muzzle mounts in precision shooting?
I was always told that direct thread was preferred if accuracy was the goal.
Click to expand...
In today's age..it doesn't matter. Look at HellFire brake from area 419. I run them.

Most pro's shoot suppressor all the time or brake. Those that shoot suppress that I've seen are mounted to a brake. Thunderbeast installs a brake type fixture in the can and calls it a direct thread on. Don't know if they do this for the ultra series. But it would make sense that they did this if they were lean manufacturing.

If worried about damage to the brake threads..add a tab of anti-size (thompson)
 
I would not put much into 175gr FGMM. The wife's Remington is a 20" Heavy Contour 1:10 5R and it shoots pretty good using 168gr FGMM, It hates 175grFGMM. Just worked up a load using 185Gr Juggernauts and it loves them. With FGMM primers, 44gr of Varget and the 185gr Bergers the pattern at 100 yards could be covered with a penny. Basically one large ragged hole.

Something about 5R barrels and 175gr. Try working up a handload.
 
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Slacker said:
There is a reason TBAC sticks to direct thread with its rifle cans.
Click to expand...

Quality Taper mounts offer a high degree of precision and return to POI.

I’ve been shooting a couple years with several Griffin taper mounts, 4+ years with an Innovative Arms mount, and a couple with a SiCo ASR FH (on a rifle I purchased second hand). Never had any issues, even with a Griffin mount and the thread protector installed:

Ydmc6oe.jpg


@VA_GENTLEMAN see my picture of Griffin thread protector on a suppressor mount
 
I'm posting some real findings to help others understand this Harmonics thing.

First, as I’ve pointed out before there are several variables involved in getting a rig to shoot good, barrel harmonics being , IMHO, one that is least understood or utilized.

My AR-10 is pictured and it used to have a Bird Cage device and is now sporting a Brake.

Besides turning it into a Golf Club, I think the brake weighs 10oz.

From left to right the targets are,

Win 180gr w/brake, Rem 180gr w/brake, Win 180gr w/bird cage, and Rem 180gr w/bird cage.

I already know that Rem Core-Lokt runs good with the rifle. I also know from previous test Winchester 180 never ran good.

I started the test with the sock Bird Cage installed and changed to the Brake. Having changed nothing else , the results speak for themselves . Distance, 63yds w/range finder.

While the Rem 180gr group was lower it also groups Tighter than the Bird Cage and the Brake stays on.

With the exception of a Hammer Spring and a Muzzle device this rifle is STOCK.

I also expect / believe that with the tighter group this rifle is a MOA or Sub-MOA rig.

For anyone new reading my findings and wanting to help me by suggesting I run SMC or some other Boat Tail Bullet, I have.

I have spent Many Dollars on different types / manufactures of Match Grade Ammo.

Bottom line, this rig doesn't like that type , for what ever reason.

Safe Shooting

AR10, Bird Cage vs Brake_1 a.jpg
 
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