Doxology

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Praise God from whom all blessings flow
Praise Him all creatures here below
Praise Him above, ye heavenly host
Praise Father, Son, and Holy Ghost
 
Vain Repetition?

Matthew 6:7: "But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking."

vain repetition is saying one prayer over and over and over and over and over.

Maybe the Doxology is not a prayer? A chant perhaps?

I grew to dislike responsive readings and such.

Brought up as a Methodist stating Sunday after Sunday the Doxology and similar.

Now a Baptist...but not in the Southern Baptist Convention or whatever it's called.
 
Not all repetitions are vain.

To continue the theme ...

(v. 4 Holy God We Praise Thy Name)
Holy Father, Holy Son,
Holy Spirit, Three we name Thee;
While in essence only One,
Undivided God we claim Thee;
And adoring bend the knee,
While we own the mystery.

Minor Doxology (tendered after Psalms, the Asperges Me, the Vidi Aquam ):
Gloria Patri, et Filio, et Spiritui Sancto. Sicut erat in principio, et nunc, et semper, et in saecula saeculorum amen.

After orations addressed to the Father,:
Per Dominum nostrum Iesum Christum, Filium tuum: qui tecum vivit et regnat in unitate Spiritus Sancti Deus, per omnia saecula saeculorum.

Preface of the Most Holy Trinity:
Vere dignum et iustum est, æquum et salutare,
nos tibi semper et ubique gratias agere:
Domine, sancte Pater, omnipotens æterne Deus:

Qui cum Unigenito Filio tuo et Spiritu Sancto
unus es Deus, unus es Dominus:
non in unius singularitate personæ,
sed in unius Trinitate substantiæ.

Quod enim de tua gloria, revelante te, credimus,
hoc de Filio tuo,
hoc de Spiritu Sancto,
sine discretione sentimus.
Ut in confessione veræ sempiternæque Deitatis,
et in personis proprietas,
et in essentia unitas,
et in maiestate adoretur æqualitas.

Quem laudant Angeli atque Archangeli,
Cherubim quoque ac Seraphim,
qui non cessant clamare quotidie, una voce dicentes:

An English trans.

It is truly right and just,
proper and helpful toward salvation,
that we always and everywhere
give thanks to You, O Lord, holy Father,
Almighty and eternal God;
For with Your Only-begotten Son
and the Holy Spirit
You are one God, one Lord,
Not in the unity of a single person,
but in the Trinity of one substance.
For what we believe of Your glory,
through Your revelation,
that we also believe of Your Son,
and of the Holy Spirit,
without difference or distinction.
So that in confessing the true and eternal Godhead,
we adore the distinction of Persons,
oneness in Being,
and equality in Majesty.
This the Angels and Archangels,
the Cherubim and Seraphim praise,
and unceasingly chant each day,
saying with one voice:

The Gloria or the Greater Doxology:

Gloria in excelsis Deo
et in terra pax hominibus bonae voluntatis.
Laudamus te,
benedicimus te,
adoramus te,
glorificamus te,
gratias agimus tibi propter magnam gloriam tuam,
Domine Deus, Rex coelestis,
Deus Pater omnípotens.

Domine Fili unigenite, Jesu Christe,
Domine Deus, Agnus Dei, Filius Patris,
qui tollis peccata mundi, miserere nobis;
qui tollis peccata mundi, suscipe deprecationem nostram.
Qui sedes ad dexteram Patris, miserere nobis.

Quoniam tu solus Sanctus, tu solus Dominus, tu solus Altissimus,
Jesu Christe, cum Sancto Spiritu: in gloria Dei Patris. Amen.

Glory to God in the highest, and peace on earth to men of good will.
We praise Thee, we bless Thee, we adore Thee, we glorify Thee, we give Thee thanks for Thy great glory, O Lord God, heavenly King, God the Father Almighty.
O Lord Jesus Christ, only begotten Son, Lord God, Lamb of God, Son of the Father, Thou who takest away the sins of the world, have mercy on us; Thou who takest away the sins of the world, receive our prayer. Thou who sittest at the right hand of the Father, have mercy on us.
For Thou alone art the Holy One, Thou alone art the Lord, Thou alone art the Most High, Jesus Christ, with the Holy Spirit, in the glory of God the Father. Amen.
 
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Grew up in Lutheran church and back 50 years ago there was only one setting so it was all repetition, every Sunday. Now there are multiple settings but they have left out the doxology and that's a shame.
 
The key is “vain” repetition. Thinking that by merely going through the motions and speaking the words is “vain”. Jesus himself gave us the “Lord Prayer” and it isn’t vain repetition to use it as designed. If the repetition means something to you, burns the words into your heart and soul, and gets you closer to then that’s not in vain.


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When Jesus was in the desert being tempted by satan, his reply was, "It is written.."

He knew the scriptures, and we don't learn them by repeating them once.
 
Of course we don't learn the scriptures by repeating them once.

So...are you saying the Doxology is actual scripture?
 
Of course we don't learn the scriptures by repeating them once.

So...are you saying the Doxology is actual scripture?

He can speak for himself of course, but I think his point it similar to mine, not all repetition is vain.


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Of course we don't learn the scriptures by repeating them once.

So...are you saying the Doxology is actual scripture?
C&L, don't take this as a challenge, just discussion of things that I think we all question at some point in our walk.
I love the old hymns. Some are over 300 years old. Is it vain repetition to sing those old hymns over and over for three hundred years? They might be "scriptural", but they might not be "scripture".
 
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The key is “vain” repetition. Thinking that by merely going through the motions and speaking the words is “vain”. Jesus himself gave us the “Lord Prayer” and it isn’t vain repetition to use it as designed. If the repetition means something to you, burns the words into your heart and soul, and gets you closer to then that’s not in vain.

The Lord's Prayer was designed and given as a model as to how we should structure our prayer and not to just repeat and repeat each week or two. That makes it vain repetition.
 
Of course we don't learn the scriptures by repeating them once.

So...are you saying the Doxology is actual scripture?

Right, because, of course, Apocalypse 4.8 doesn't speak of the four living creatures day and night without rest repeating agios, agios, agios, kurios ...

Nor, of course, does the great crowd of heaven repeat "Alleluia" four times in Apocalypse 19.

The Lord's Prayer was designed and given as a model as to how we should structure our prayer and not to just repeat and repeat each week or two.

Huh, but I didn't find that in scripture.
 
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The Lord's Prayer was designed and given as a model as to how we should structure our prayer and not to just repeat and repeat each week or two. That makes it vain repetition.

The vanity comes from the heart. It was not given >just< as a model. If you pray the Lords Prayer, and mean it, then it isn’t vain. If you pray it like “God is great, God is good” like a kid does over his dinner blessing then it can be.

I really think the disconnect we have is that you seem to feel that anytime someone repeats a prayer it is in vain, while the rest of us can agree that the vanity comes from the intention.

The most common example of “vain repetition” is having people do 5 Hail Marys and 10 Our Fathers as punishment.

Scripturally, Jesus was warning his followers to not just pray as an outward show to others. Just standing and wailing out prayers, not from the heart, but in a desire that others will look and see how passionate >they appear<.

Our church recites the Lords Prayer quite often, and I assure you, it is not in vain.


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I'm not taking anything as a challenge...a pastor I'm not. I'm just a guy that goes to church Sunday mornings and night, sings in the choir, teaches 4th & 5th grade SS along with my wife, and goes to prayer meeting on Wednesday nights. I'm also a sinner saved by Grace.

I realize doctrines are different among the different denominations. I too like the old hymns and don't sing the same one every service thus (I feel) making them vain repetitions.
 
One could easily say claiming “I am a sinner saved by grace” is vain repetition because it is an extremely common answer when a Christian is asked about their faith. But I am fairly certain you don’t feel it is in your case, merely a vain repetition, but a true description of how you view yourself.

Repeating something doesn’t make it “vain”. Repeating it simply for the sake of repeating it does.


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Glad we don't all thing exactly the same or we would be in a One World Church
 
Glad we don't all thing exactly the same or we would be in a One World Church

Why not? Jesus himself wanted us to all be of one accord. And while I agree we should all go to where we are best fed, Jesus intended us to all be one church.


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I grew up in church. My grandparents were missionaries in Japan during the 1920's when it was still the FAR east. I went to school where Billy Graham's wife taught Sunday School in my classroom building on Sunday mornings, but I wasn't a believer till I was 31.

The Apostles' Creed


I believe in God, the father almighty, creator of heaven and earth.
I believe in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord.
He was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit and born of the Virgin Mary.
He suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried.
He descended to the dead.
On the third day he rose again.
He ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again to judge the living and the dead.

I believe in the Holy Spirit,
the Holy Catholic Church,
the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and the life everlasting. Amen.

We repeated this creed in the church of my youth. We don't repeat it in the church I've attended for thirty years.

But it is still a testament to what I believe. If I were to repeat it, it would be from memory, and it would not be in vain.
 
I grew up as a Methodist. Did all the doxology, apostle's creed, responsive readings, etc., every Sunday with the congregation until it seemed like a chant.

Lost interest in all of it...quit going to church...became a jerk...not too nice of a guy for years.

Have now been going to the same Baptist church for 20 years. I'm there to stay and believe in our church's doctrine.

Not here to argue, create disharmony, nor to challenge or say I'm right or you are right.

Carry on, over and out.
 
I grew up as a Methodist. Did all the doxology, apostle's creed, responsive readings, etc., every Sunday with the congregation until it seemed like a chant.

Lost interest in all of it...quit going to church...became a jerk...not too nice of a guy for years.

Have now been going to the same Baptist church for 20 years. I'm there to stay and believe in our church's doctrine.

Not here to argue, create disharmony, nor to challenge or say I'm right or you are right.

Carry on, over and out.
Grew up Presbyterian, wandered around the desert for sixteen years, and joined a Baptist church 30 years ago. I think we've just been debating semantics.
 
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I grew up Methodist, barely. Met with all sorts of missionaries and theologies along the way. Loved the world for a long time. Found my way, and am not a Youth Pastor at a Pentecostal church.


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I think we've just been debating semantics.
Many people can't see the forest for the trees when it comes to that.
I go to Archdale First Church of God.
They are the most welcoming Church I have ever been to.
They teach the 123
#1 Sin is my problem.
#2 Jesus is the answer.
#3 It is up to me to choose Jesus.
No debating semantics.

And our car show is coming up May 25th.
Shameless plug. Come on out.;)
 
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