Drill, Drill, Drill

dmarbell said:
So, you're saying if I shoot drills over and over and someone pulls a gun on me, I'll assume this position and wait for the beep (maybe after finding the starting box?)? Come on! I might drop dead of fright, but most likely I will react as quickly as possible to seek cover. The premise that drills don't make you better is ridiculous on its face.
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I did not say that shooters cannot do drills; I did say that doing a particular drill to excess -until it is automatic- may not be good.

And, yes, it would be a bad idea to practice assuming the ready position and waiting for the beep until that became your totally automatic reaction to a threat.
 
James said:
Are you sure?

In return, if you don't like disagreement, don't post in a public forum. Or if you do post in a public forum..at least comprehend the post/watch the video before you argue with people about the post/video. It will help you tremendously.

Now please, put me on ignore!
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James, you seem like a fairly knowledgeable guy. You don't have a location listed on your profile, otherwise I'd probably invite you to actually come out and shoot, which I've actually done repeatedly. You could live in New York for all I know. You want to be a part of this community and share differences of opinions over beers, coffee or matches, let's do it. Or you can continue to hide in the shadows.
 
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gc70 said:
You do a variety of different things to learn to shoot better - or that is what you said previously.

What may or may not be helpful, depending on the situation you face at a particular time, is doing the same thing so much that it becomes an automatic or unconscious action.

I carried an HK P7 for several years and did lots of drills to quickly change magazines. I drilled until I reached the point of automatic, unconscious, muscle-memory mag changes using my P7's heel mag release. Then, without planning or preparation, I was invited to shoot in a Glock match; I will absolutely guarantee that automatic is not always good and the heel mag release on a Glock does not work worth a flip.
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Are you saying you trained with a rare gun, that has no other gun like it (H&K P7) and has an uncommon mag release and then you went to a match and shot a Glock and didn’t do well?

Guess what would have helped? Doing some drills with a Glock first.

Your response actually reinforces my point.

And, you didn’t answer my question:
What do you do to learn to shoot faster and more accurately?
 
NKD said:
And, you didn’t answer my question:
What do you do to learn to shoot faster and more accurately?
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You were obviously too engaged in all-out attack mode to notice that I previously answered your question and largely agreed with you.
gc70 said:
You do a variety of different things to learn to shoot better - or that is what you said previously.
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Yes, practicing a bunch of different things is good, but excessively focusing on anything can be bad. If you practice something until it is automatic, it will be automatic later whether you want it to be or not.
 
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gc70 said:
You were obviously too engaged in all-out attack mode to notice that I previously answered your question and largely agreed with you:
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“All out attack mode”? Haha, okey dokey. I thought we were having a discussion on drills in a thread entitled “drills drills drills” on a gun forum.
Sorry if I hurt your feelings and you feel “attacked”. It was not my intention. Next time I’ll put on the kid gloves and consider your feelings before asking you a simple question. My bad.

So, according to your quote above: “you do a variety of different things”.
Which apparently you think is what I say to do.

But you’re not going to explain what those variety of things is. Must be secret top operator stuff.

Good luck with that!
 
NKD said:
So, according to your quote above: “you do a variety of different things”.
Which apparently you think is what I say to do.

But you’re not going to explain what those variety of things is. Must be secret top operator stuff.
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Here is the list of activities that you wrote and I have previously referred to twice:
Draw while moving
Shoot while movin
Reload while moving
Shoot over obstacles
Shoot from under obstacles
Shoot tight long shots
Shoot fast close shots
Shoot with strong hand
Shoot with weak hand
Shoot head shots
Shoot with many “no shoots” (hostages)​
While I could undoubtedly add to it, that is a decent list of "a variety of different things" to practice.

Have at it if you want to continue to disagree with yourself, but I am done with the above.
 
fieldgrade said:
Only it is somewhat hypocrisy, since he contributed to the start of said pissing match.
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I didn't see the thread, and have no real interest in going to look for it. I've always felt that good advice stands for itself, regardless of the source.
 
Tim said:
I didn't see the thread, and have no real interest in going to look for it. I've always felt that good advice stands for itself, regardless of the source.
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John crapped on a good thread, posted by a very involved member of this community, who spends countless hours for the NC/SC gun community, running matches, volunteering his time to arrange training, and run matches. Context Tim.
 
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John Travis said:
And they're all sizes and several breeds...including six Siberian Huskies and a Boxer-Dane mix the size of a small Shetland Pony...and they're all in the house. Never a dull moment at Castle Doghair. :D

Now that I've slept and have a little time on my hands, allow me to expand a little. This is for you Wvsig. You seem to be the one who has the biggest problem with my presence here.

I rarely offer an opinion or a theory, and whenever I do, I state that it's an opinion/theory up front and worth tuppence. I refrain from offering opinions is because it triggers some people. They demand justification for my opinions. So...I generally refrain.

I stick to what I know and offer facts. Just the simple truth. But even that doesn't work well because it often challenges a preconceived notion or belief. You wouldn't believe some of the arguments I've had over Newton's Laws...the 3rd one in particular.

Or, I pass along knowledge or advice from people who are well-versed in the subject.

eg When a doctor gives me medical advice, I have to at least consider the possibility that he knows something about medicine.

eg When a lawyer gives me advice on a point of law or a legal process, I have to at least consider the possibility that he knows something about legal proceedings.

eg When an experienced gunsmith advises me not to polish a feed ramp, I have to at least consider the possibility that he knows something about feed ramps.

As Will Rogers so eloquently noted:

"A man that's had a tiger by the tail knows five or six more things about tigers than one that hasn't."

And even that seems to cause problems, so I stopped offering unless specifically invited into the discussion...and then, when it starts to devolve into snark and condescension...I quit and respond: "I've given you good information. What you choose to do with it is up to you." Or, sometimes, it's just: "Well...okay."

And then...I'm attacked for being "arrogant and dismissive" even though that's far from accurate. I've simply gotten tired of arguing and rather than fire back with snark and condescension...I drop it. And then, continue the attack long after I've quit the discussion...even in a different thread.

So much for "A soft answer turneth away wrath."

If I do seem arrogant and dismissive, know that I wasn't born this way. I acquired it.

So, now I won't even respond publicly if I'm invited. If anyone wants my input, hit me up with a private message and I'll do my best to answer clearly and accurately.

Regards
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I have no issues with you being here John Travis and contributing. I would love for you to fully participate. I do take issue with you consistently presenting your opinion as if it was fact. What you know does not always equal facts. Sometimes it does sometimes it doesn't. If you are not willing to discuss these facts/opinions their truth value is hard to determine. Without the additional interaction you are asking us to simply accept your word as gospel truth.

I know you will not read this but when you come into thread you have not participated in, called into a thread by someone else it comes across as "arrogant and dismissive". You call that an attack. On the other hand I consider it a observation of fact. See how opinions and fact get confusing.

Anyway I hope you do read this. Whether or not you remember, you and I have interacted one on one via private message on other forums in the past. One on one you have always been helpful and forth coming with your knowledge of how the 1911 pistol works. I always appreciated those interactions and your participation in the forums in those days. These days maybe no so much. Please reconsider your participation here I am sure I and others would welcome your full participation.
 
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gc70 said:
Here is the list of activities that you wrote and I have previously referred to twice:
Draw while moving
Shoot while movin
Reload while moving
Shoot over obstacles
Shoot from under obstacles
Shoot tight long shots
Shoot fast close shots
Shoot with strong hand
Shoot with weak hand
Shoot head shots
Shoot with many “no shoots” (hostages)​
While I could undoubtedly add to it, that is a decent list of "a variety of different things" to practice.

Have at it if you want to continue to disagree with yourself, but I am done with the above.
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I practice these things by doing drills.
Are you drunk or something? Do you honestly think this is some type of smart argument you are making?
Quit being a juvenile. Good Lord!
 
Ok, I am new here...let me see if I get this straight:

1. Saying you practice drawing while moving (one example) is not good enough, you have to say "I do drills to practice drawing while moving"
2. John Travis can't crap in anybody else's thread but everybody can crap in his. In addition Non-moderators can dictate how John Travis participates in threads
3. Even though this is an online forum, you are required to have coffee and share disagreements with fieldgrade in person. I guess if you agree with him you can stick with sharing online?
4. Oh, further on #3, "Leaving the containment area" is not a city, and I am guessing Fieldgrade is not a real name...but some other guy who doesn't put his location is "hiding in the shadows" (actually that whole post was kind of creepy..wtf dude)
5. You can attack other members for giving their opinions as long as you consider the attack an "observation of fact"
6. You cannot question Ken Hackathorn
7. Drills are good until you do too many then they are bad
8. IDPA and USPSA are good combat practice except if you drill the surrender position too much you will die quickly
 
SC380 said:
Ok, I am new here...let me see if I get this straight:

1. Saying you practice drawing while moving (one example) is not good enough, you have to say "I do drills to practice drawing while moving"
2. John Travis can't crap in anybody else's thread but everybody can crap in his. In addition Non-moderators can dictate how John Travis participates in threads
3. Even though this is an online forum, you are required to have coffee and share disagreements with fieldgrade in person. I guess if you agree with him you can stick with sharing online?
4. Oh, further on #3, "Leaving the containment area" is not a city, and I am guessing Fieldgrade is not a real name...but some other guy who doesn't put his location is "hiding in the shadows" (actually that whole post was kind of creepy..wtf dude)
5. You can attack other members for giving their opinions as long as you consider the attack an "observation of fact"
6. You cannot question Ken Hackathorn
7. Drills are good until you do too many then they are bad
8. IDPA and USPSA are good combat practice except if you drill the surrender position too much you will die quickly
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Pretty much.
 
I’m probably the only person who has ever “crapped” on a John Travis thread...

That said, when it comes to knowledge of the 1911 platform I will bow to his absolute knowledge in a heartbeat with no doubt. He knows his stuff 100%.

But that doesn’t mean he knows how to fight, nor fight with a gun.

Bailey Boat, the curmudgeon he is, may have seen the flashy end of a shooter in his days. But that doesn’t either make him an expert on gun training.

Once we get to a point where we acknowledge that there is no one single guru that knows all, and from all we should take what we can; then we can finally move past the weenie wagging and enter into the age of Aquarius.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
B00ger said:
Once we get to a point where we acknowledge that there is no one single guru that knows all, and from all we should take what we can; then we can finally move past the weenie wagging and enter into the age of Aquarius
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sounds reasonable to me
 
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The amount of animosity that can be drummed up on here over equipment and techniques always amazes me. Maybe because I realize I don't know a ton, or have 'tactical' skills I am able to STFU and just read peoples' opinions without stirring the pot. I used to ask Devil's Advocate type questions, but it seems that wasn't popular either. People get less worked up over politics, murders and toppling historic monuments than they do some old guy's opinion on training. I thnk this falls into the First World Problems category.
 
If I had someone to follow... I think it would be Jerry Miculek. It's supposed to be fun right?

Yes, Jerry Miculek.

blaspheme_blues_brothers.gif
 
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SC380 said:
Ok, I am new here...let me see if I get this straight:
3. Despite the fact that this is an online forum, you can be invited to have coffee and share disagreements with fieldgrade in person.
4. Oh, further on #3, "Leaving the containment area" is not a city, and I am guessing Fieldgrade is not a real name...but some other guy who doesn't put his location is "hiding in the shadows" (actually that whole post was kind of creepy..wtf dude) SC380 is not a real name. SC is not an exact location. Glass houses and all!
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Since you're new, we can be gentle. There has been considerable interaction among the participants over several threads. This has been, at least in my opinion, a rather civil discussion. We learn here from discussions, agreements and disagreements.
 
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SC380 said:
Ok, I am new here...let me see if I get this straight:

1. Saying you practice drawing while moving (one example) is not good enough, you have to say "I do drills to practice drawing while moving"
2. John Travis can't crap in anybody else's thread but everybody can crap in his. In addition Non-moderators can dictate how John Travis participates in threads
3. Even though this is an online forum, you are required to have coffee and share disagreements with fieldgrade in person. I guess if you agree with him you can stick with sharing online?
4. Oh, further on #3, "Leaving the containment area" is not a city, and I am guessing Fieldgrade is not a real name...but some other guy who doesn't put his location is "hiding in the shadows" (actually that whole post was kind of creepy..wtf dude)
5. You can attack other members for giving their opinions as long as you consider the attack an "observation of fact"
6. You cannot question Ken Hackathorn
7. Drills are good until you do too many then they are bad
8. IDPA and USPSA are good combat practice except if you drill the surrender position too much you will die quickly
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Most folks who know me here have figured out the Containment Area is Cary. It's been a long standing joke, like five years long. Sorry that wasn't clear to everyone. I was actually trying to extend a genuine invitation to someone who I might actually get along with in person, if not in open forum, but I don't even know if he is located in the two Carolinas, much less anywhere close to me.

I was very reticent to even post in this thread after the slugfests they have become in the past, and I obviously pretty much blew my cool, and for that I apologize. I will repeat something from upthread if you missed it. A thread was posted by someone here who is an accomplished local shooter and trainer, and also a friend of mine, who posted several videos of drills that were conducted by a very respected trainer who I have meet and spent several days in training with. When the OP suggested that drill was not good for defense, but only for gaming, most here with any interest in both would have probably taken it as an insult. I did, as did some others.

I'll say what I said a few days ago, if someone posts a drill and someone else doesn't like it, I'd submit that they post something better. Thus far it hasn't happened.
 
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fieldgrade said:
Most folks who know me here have figured out the Containment Area is Cary. It's been a long standing joke, like five years long. Sorry that wasn't clear to everyone. I was actually trying to extend a genuine invitation to someone who I might actually get along with in person, if not in open forum, but I don't even know if he is located in the two Carolinas, much less anywhere close to me.

I was very reticent to even post in this thread after the slugfests they have become in the past, and I obviously pretty much blew my cool, and for that I apologize. I will repeat something from upthread if you missed it. A thread was posted by someone here who is an accomplished local shooter and trainer, and also a friend of mine, who posted several videos of drills that were conducted by a very respected trainer who I have meet and spent several days in training with. When the OP suggested that drill was not good for defense, but only for gaming, most here with any interest in both would have probably taken it as an insult. I did, as did some others.

I'll say what I said a few days ago, if someone posts a drill and someone else doesn't like it, I'd submit that they post something better. Thus far it hasn't happened.
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I am pretty sure I caught up on all the related threads and I saw the info in the upthread, thanks for the detail. On the location, I am not in on Cary joke...I was just pointing out the "glass house" which somehow me pointing out the glass house became another glass house?!?! Anyway, all in good (or maybe somewhat sarcastic) humor.

All I will say is this, we are gun people, we shouldn't get insulted so easily. Strong minded opinionated rebellious personalities is what (in theory) separates us from the sheep. Where I come from, if people are giving you a hard time, they probably like you a little bit.
 
SC380 said:
I am pretty sure I caught up on all the related threads and I saw the info in the upthread, thanks for the detail. On the location, I am not in on Cary joke...I was just pointing out the "glass house" which somehow me pointing out the glass house became another glass house?!?! Anyway, all in good (or maybe somewhat sarcastic) humor.

All I will say is this, we are gun people, we shouldn't get insulted so easily. Strong minded opinionated rebellious personalities is what (in theory) separates us from the sheep. Where I come from, if people are giving you a hard time, they probably like you a little bit.
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Damn, @fieldgrade must have a man-crush on me then!
 
NKD said:
Are you drunk or something? Do you honestly think this is some type of smart argument you are making?
Quit being a juvenile. Good Lord!
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Insults are not a substitute for arguments.
NKD said:
Important that everybody understand this discussion is based on a Ken Hackathorn drill.
.....
The idea that self defense shooting skills will be negatively affected by this type of shooting mastery is beyond laughable.
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Ken Hackathorn disagrees with you.
by Ken Hackathorn said:
The problem is that to become really good at competition, many mindset/tactics are disregarded. In fact, the real issue is that, like everything we do in life, “we are what we practice.” . . . It appears that the more skilled you become in competition, the easier it is to preprogram behaviors that could be fatal in a real self-defense encounter.
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by Ken Hackathorn said:
If game shooting is driven by the goal to be the best, you will likely acquire a mindset about doing well at the game without any appreciation of how badly you are setting yourself up for failure on the street when the learned behaviors from competition surface under life-and-death scenarios. As such, like many things in life, competition can be a great learning experience, but too much can be dangerous, kind of like alcohol consumption.
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SC380 said:
Ok, I am new here...let me see if I get this straight:

1. Saying you practice drawing while moving (one example) is not good enough, you have to say "I do drills to practice drawing while moving"
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If you are practicing drawing while moving:
You are doing a practice drill of drawing while moving.
 
*
 
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Close this thread. It needs to be done
 
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