Electrical issue

[amnesia]

So last night we had pretty nasty storm and now I have some outlets that do not work.

I checked every gfi outlet and reset the breaker even though it wasnt tripped.

Here is the crazy part... I know which gfi controls those outlets and it's working. I have a GFCI power tester. On the GFCI it shows correct green light. The other 4 outlets show hot/ground reverse. Just for s&g's I checked all of the GFCI plugs. All good.

I replaced the GFCI just in case taking note to wiring. I even taped and labeled them before taking them off so I know the new outlet is correct.

The outlets are in parallel feeding the next one. I did read that hot/ground rev will show up if there is an open neutral which would indicate maybe a loose ground. I've taken two off the outside recepticals that we use often. One had a piece of the ground twist under the electrical cap broken. It was just the end but I thought maybe that was it. It wasn't... I haven't pulled the two inside recepticals because they never have anything plugged into it. Guess it's worth checking anyway.

Before I go to Lowe's and buy brand new recepticals for the ones not working does anyone have any thoughts or ideas?

 

[MacEntyre]

I did read that hot/ground rev will show up if there is an open neutral which would indicate maybe a loose ground.

Why would open neutral indicate a loose ground?

 

[Mirac]

Nothing you haven't tried yet. Check those other recepticals wiring connections...
Tighten all the grounds on the bus in the panel. Shut the main if you're not comfortable crossing the plane and using insulated screw/nut drivers.

 

[amnesia]

Why would open neutral indicate a loose ground?

Not sure... Just what I was reading...

Nothing you haven't tried yet. Check those other recepticals wiring connections...
Tighten all the grounds on the bus in the panel. Shut the main if you're not comfortable crossing the plane and using insulated screw/nut drivers.

I'm not 100% comfortable with that but the breaker in the panel would only be the issue if the GFCI didn't work either right? It seems it's the downstream outlets from the GFCI. Actually now that I think about it that would indicate the next outlet would be dead since it's in parallel. If that one was fine then the next hop would have power.

 

[MacEntyre]

It seems it's the downstream outlets from the GFCI. Actually now that I think about it that would indicate the next outlet would be dead since it's in parallel. If that one was fine then the next hop would have power.

Now yer thankin'!

 

[Mirac]

Depends, did they pigtail to the recep. Or land on the recep. And carry on to the next?

Never mind, we're talking gfci on the load side to recepts.

 

[amnesia]

Depends, did they pigtail to the recep. Or land on the recep. And carry on to the next?

They used the 5 wire wiring setup. I believe it's a pig tail. There's three wires coming in and three wires going to the next recepticals. The ground twists together so basically 2 white and 2 back and 1 ground.

 

[amnesia]

I'll check the inside garage outlets next since they should be the next hop. I hope it's not the one in the ceiling for the garage door opener.

 

[amnesia]

Ok I have more info to add here.

GFCI outlet works the others not so much.

I replaced what I thought would be the next receptical hop. Still no change. I took apart the 2nd inside garage recep. To my surprise it only had one set of wires going to it. My only thought is this outlet is the end of the parallel chain.

Is there something I can buy to plug in that will trace this down for me so I'm not flying blind?

 

[InvisibleOne]

Is there something I can buy to plug in that will trace this down for me so I'm not flying blind?

I found one method that involves looking for smoke ... probably not the best method.

 

[Cowboy]

I had mine all out on one section this morning after the storms. Oddly enough a breaker was blown in the middle of the night but went right back.

 

[Jp8819]

Check to see if you have power coming out of the gfci if you have replaced it. Common for storms to get them and also common to be miss wired and not pass power threw them. If you have power coming out there then check at next outlet with meter to see if you have power coming in and you will know if not it is wiring or recepticle.

 

[Get Off My Lawn]

I'll check the inside garage outlets next since they should be the next hop. I hope it's not the one in the ceiling for the garage door opener.

We’ve one in the garage that takes out the outdoor outlets frequently.

Tighten all the grounds on the bus in the panel.

We just went through something similar, A dozen breakers would randomly pop. We had Eaton engineers, Duke power and the installing electricians here 3 times. The first thing they checked was connection tightness.

 

[Scsmith42]

Ok I have more info to add here.

GFCI outlet works the others not so much.

I replaced what I thought would be the next receptical hop. Still no change. I took apart the 2nd inside garage recep. To my surprise it only had one set of wires going to it. My only thought is this outlet is the end of the parallel chain.

Is there something I can buy to plug in that will trace this down for me so I'm not flying blind?

Chris, I have a tester that you can borrow. It’s the same one that I used out by the pool.

I think that you may find that the problem is either a loose terminal or bad GFI.

 

[amnesia]

Chris, I have a tester that you can borrow. It’s the same one that I used out by the pool.

I think that you may find that the problem is either a loose terminal or bad GFI.

Ty! You can see I listened when you were out here before. Remember how I said I dont mess with electrical? I figured this would be basic level 1 beginner knowledge so I should at least be able to do this.

When you say loose terminal do you mean on the GFCI? BTW just to make sure I wired it back correctly used white tape and labeled it before pulling them out.

 

[Jp8819]

When you say loose terminal do you mean on the GFCI? BTW just to make sure I wired it back correctly used white tape and labeled it before pulling them out.

I would check there first also make sure when you put the wire back in you didn’t accidentialy catch the wire by the insulation under the screw instead of bare copper wire. Issue should be on what is labeled as load side wires of the gfci if it is working.

 

[amnesia]

I would check there first also make sure when you put the wire back in you didn’t accidentialy catch the wire by the insulation under the screw instead of bare copper wire. Issue should be on what is labeled as load side wires of the gfci if it is working.

I did notice the new outlet has the load and line reversed. The old one had load on top and line on bottom. I made sure to match them up based on color and load/line. I'll checkd the ground wire it's good. I even checked the ground wires in the box. Everything seems to good.

 

[MacEntyre]

When you say loose terminal do you mean on the GFCI?

You are looking for a connection that worked, until the surge hit it. It may not be apparent to the eye.

Sounds like you don't have many on that circuit. Wouldn't hurt to reconnect them, testing after each one, until they all work.

 

[amnesia]

You are looking for a connection that worked, until the surge hit it. It may not be apparent to the eye.

Sounds like you don't have many on that circuit. Wouldn't hurt to reconnect them, testing after each one, until they all work.

 

[Jp8819]

I did notice the new outlet has the load and line reversed. The old one had load on top and line on bottom. I made sure to match them up based on color and load/line. I'll checkd the ground wire it's good. I even checked the ground wires in the box. Everything seems to good.

Are you saying you did change the wiring for the new one? As I am pretty sure it matters to those gfci’s which way its feed threw it as far as line and load goes. Sounds like your setup should looking something like the picture above.

 

[amnesia]

View attachment 130964

Are you saying you did change the wiring for the new one? As I am pretty sure it matters to those gfci’s which way its feed threw it as far as line and load goes. Sounds like your setup should looking something like the picture above.

I'm saying for the old GFCI the load was on top. Even the markings on the back the load wording was on the top.

The load wording/diagram on the back has it on the bottom

 

[Jp8819]

I'm saying for the old GFCI the load was on top. Even the markings on the back the load wording was on the top.

The load wording/diagram on the back has it on the bottom

Main thing is wires connected to load connections go to down stream receptacles. Line side wires should go up stream or back to main panel if first outlet on circuit.

 

[noway2]

Main thing is wires connected to load connections go to down stream receptacles. Line side wires should go up stream or back to main panel if first outlet on circuit.

Correct. If the line and load are reversed, what he's describing, i.e. the first device in the circuit works, but nothing down stream, would be the expected result.

However, it sounds like he paid attention to "line" and "load" even though they changed relative positions on the new GFCI.

 

[Jp8819]

However, it sounds like he paid attention to "line" and "load" even though they changed relative positions on the new GFCI.

Think amnesia did to based on what he discribed just wanted rule it out and explain it since it could cause same problem

 

[amnesia]

Think amnesia did to based on what he discribed just wanted rule it out and explain it since it could cause same problem

Its possible that I got it wrong but I removed one connection at a time and then taped it with white electrical tape with the info of what it is and where it came from. That's how I knew the positions changed because I went so far to even put "Top plug / Bottom plug"

 

[noway2]

Its possible that I got it wrong but I removed one connection at a time and then taped it with white electrical tape with the info of what it is and where it came from. That's how I knew the positions changed because I went so far to even put "Top plug / Bottom plug"

If there is a question about which pair is the line pair, you can pull the outlet out of the box and carefully put a volt meter across the pairs. The line pair will have voltage. If this is on the line side it should have power. If the GFCI is working, so should the lugs on the load side. Just be careful and don't touch the wires. Also test your volt meter in a known working outlet first.

Edit to add, on a normal outlet, I assume your GFCI follows this convention, the neutral (white) wire goes to the silver screw and the hot (black) goes to the gold screw. Ground to green and passed through to continue to the next outlet.

 

[MacEntyre]

Amnesia, is everything shown on your drawing on the same circuit?
Do they all share one breaker in the panel?
I would think everything that is drawn in purple is a different circuit, and is not involved in this puzzle.

 

[Scsmith42]

Chris, on the GFCI outlet the black wires should go to the yellow (brass) screws, and the white wires should go to the chrome screws. If they are reversed it could cause problems.

 

[amnesia]

Amnesia, is everything shown on your drawing on the same circuit?
Do they all share one breaker in the panel?
I would think everything that is drawn in purple is a different circuit, and is not involved in this puzzle.

That is correct. Two separate circuits. I just was showing it to give an idea of the setup

 

[amnesia]

Chris, on the GFCI outlet the black wires should go to the yellow (brass) screws, and the white wires should go to the chrome screws. If they are reversed it could cause problems.

Man I'm perplexed! I tried to straight wire it but didn't have enough wing nuts but I'm pretty sure it was connected and the other outlets didn't work.

The only thing I can think of is the next hop isn't inside the garage. Maybe it goes outside and then back in considering the one outlet against the exterior wall only has one set of wires going to it.

 

[amnesia]

I'm starting to think it's not the GFCI. I know the outside outlet when I pulled it apart had a small piece of copper inside the wing nut. I removed it and inspected it. It all seemed to still have contact. The only other thing I can think of is that outlet may be the next hop and I didn't inspect it good enough. I'm thinking I will out that outlet off again tomorrow in the daylight to verify.

If the ground isn't making connection would that be consistent with my reader on the hot/ground rev or the fact the GFCI works but nothing downstream of it doesn't? Even after bypassing the GFCI

 

[amnesia]

I'm starting to think it's not the GFCI. I know the outside outlet when I pulled it apart had a small piece of copper inside the wing nut. I removed it and inspected it. It all seemed to still have contact. The only other thing I can think of is that outlet may be the next hop and I didn't inspect it good enough. I'm thinking I will out that outlet off again tomorrow in the daylight to verify.

If the ground isn't making connection would that be consistent with my reader on the hot/ground rev or the fact the GFCI works but nothing downstream of it doesn't? Even after bypassing the GFCI

I'm thinking this may be the problem. I'll pull that one apart tomorrow. :|

Also regarding hot/ground rev really being an open neutral.

 

[Jp8819]

According to the green light on the gfci I am pretty sure its wired correct with no issues with it reseting as the new ones self test and will not reset if wired improperly also that light would be red.

 

[Scsmith42]

A

Man I'm perplexed! I tried to straight wire it but didn't have enough wing nuts but I'm pretty sure it was connected and the other outlets didn't work.

The only thing I can think of is the next hop isn't inside the garage. Maybe it goes outside and then back in considering the one outlet against the exterior wall only has one set of wires going to it.

View attachment 131074
View attachment 131075
View attachment 131076 View attachment 131077
View attachment 131078

Appears correct to me.

 

[amnesia]

A


Appears correct to me.

I'm going to buy some wing nuts and replacement outlets. Then tomorrow start on the outside outlets. Is GFCI typically the first hop in the daisy chain?

 

[Scsmith42]

I'm going to buy some wing nuts and replacement outlets. Then tomorrow start on the outside outlets. Is GFCI typically the first hop in the daisy chain?

Yes. Any receptacle near water (kitchen counter, bathroom, outdoors) is required to be GFI. You can slave several receptacles to a single master, and it has to be the first one in the chain.

 

[Jp8819]

Is GFCI typically the first hop in the daisy chain?

. Yes like Scott stated and if newer house typically anything outside or in a garage is on a gfci so based on your drawing chances are all of those not working are fed from your gfci outlet that are not working just a matter of finding which is the next down the line. Do you have a multimeter by chance? If so like mentioned above be sure you have power on the load terminals/wire of the gfci then start pulling what you think are next outlets and seeing if there is power there on incoming terminals and then out going. If you do not feel comfortable doing it understandable electricty is not for everyone its not bad just have to be careful with it.

 

[Jp8819]

Based on your layout just guessing but would bet one of the two circled are the next in line but based on proximty to gfci,but hard to say with out following the wires.

 

[amnesia]

View attachment 131124
Based on your layout just guessing but would bet one of the two circled are the next in line but based on proximty to gfci,but hard to say with out following the wires.

Alright folks I have an update. Based on the two circled it would appear the outlet in the middle of the garage in the ceiling only has one set of wires. It's also weird because another outlet in the garage only has one set of wires.

So the one I think is the next hop is the outlet under the house. There's 4 sets of wires because it also runs a light switch/light.

I've replaced all but one outlet with brand new ones. I took the meter to the screws on each outlet. Checks out!. I'm going to change the last one tomorrow.

My current thinking is changing that one out won't matter but it's worth a shot.

At this point I'm not sure what the issue is unless it's in the panel but that's beyond my comfort zone or a hidden junction box...

 

[MacEntyre]

Sounds like you might want to confirm that everything you think is on one circuit, actually is on one circuit. If it's not, the tail you've been chasin' is on the wrong dog!