Eyes Opened at Battery Oaks

R1E45

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I wasn't sure where to put this, so I apologize if the placing isn't appropriate.

Yesterday, I had the opportunity to make it out to Battery Oaks for the second time and I had some eye-opening experiences.

Billy brought out the shot timer and it was the first time I've ever been put on a clock. I was surprised by the amount of instant stress/performance anxiety I felt and I right away realized it's usefulness as a training tool. I haven't had much formal training, so it was great to have someone with Billy's experience to assess and point out what I was doing right and wrong.

He had me run the El Presidente drill, the wizard drill, Guatemalan steakhouse drill, and some shooting from a chair behind a car door, simulating being in a vehicle. This was another first for me. The first time I've ever heard of these drills and the first time I've ever ran any drill of this nature.

What bests describes the experience is this post from the thread about if training for matches is good/bad for SD:
I carry a pistol everywhere I go and this post is a poignant question, especially for me. I need to shoot more pistol... period. I have a false sense of confidence in my ability to perform in a SD scenario. Cause I suck at pistol, and it is my fault for not practicing.

The bold is especially true. Punching paper, minimal practice drawing from concealment, and previous experiences, gave me a false confidence in my abilities. Running the drills and drawing from concealment, under the "stress" of a timer, was almost startling. It burst my bubble a bit and I'm glad for it!

I learned a whole lot, especially what I really need to work on, some errors in my habits were identified, and it was encouraging to see how much progress I made just in the short time of running the drills over and over. I'm extremely thankful to Billy for opening up his property to me, but especially for taking his time and giving me the instruction and he wouldn't take a dime for it!

I say all of that to say this... if you haven't ran any drills, and done so under a clock, please do! It just may save your life. I know I may be the minority here, because I've never competed, or taken any courses from well-known instructors, so this post is mostly for those who were just like me and had a false sense of confidence in their abilities. And besides, it's FUN! A whole lot more than punching paper is.
 
Anything that can induce stress prior to shooting for time and/or accuracy is helpful. If you don't have a time, do 50 side straddle hops, then shoot.
 
Anything that can induce stress prior to shooting for time and/or accuracy is helpful. If you don't have a time, do 50 side straddle hops, then shoot.
I'll definitely be getting a timer. But I like your idea for the mean time!
 
Preach it @R1E45

Its amazing how a timer changes everything. Instant brain dump.
The only things that stick are the movements and habits (good or bad) that you have done in repetition.

You got that right! The first time, I went blank for about a half second or so. I was drawing from concealment (jeans, t-shirt, IWB 3-3:30, Glock 33) on the Wizard drill, but was using my shooting hand to move t-shirt and draw. Billy pointed this out to me and suggested I use offhand to pull shirt up to chin, my right hand is for shooting only. The first two runs, the brain calculations of this new method felt like an eternity. After a few runs, it was like second nature and cut my time down considerably while not affecting accuracy negatively.
 
The first trip out there about two weeks ago, we ran the Tueller drill. I've read about it many times, but never ran it. It was remarkable how much distance can be covered in such short time.
 
If you're focused on the timer then you're not focused on the threat.... One will give you a time, the other will give you hot lead...
 
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Billy knows how to put stress on people. :D (Inside joke)

I agree with Clint Smith, throw the timer away.* Learn to shoot good, when you're in the middle of a gun fight, you're going to shoot fast anyway.


*I say this because I'm slow.
 
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If you're focused on the timer then you're not focused on the threat.... One will give you a time, the other will give you hot lead...
You’re correct. The proper way to prepare yourself is to have someone attack you! This artificial stress of a timer will get ya killed and all of those pros that have been on both sides (real world & competition) that say otherwise are just playing to their “fanboys.”

Seriously what happened to you BB? You show up to a match and get embarrassed? Old lady look a little too hard at someone’s ummm... race holster? Why the hatred for action shooting competition and what would be your suggestion to better prepare if a timer is so bad?
 
If you're focused on the timer then you're not focused on the threat.... One will give you a time, the other will give you hot lead...

My focus was on a smooth draw and accurate shots, not what my time would be. It was just interesting to see how long it took to do so since I've never measured it before. While my time did speed up after doing it repetitively, my foremost goal was fumble-free draw and accurate shot placement. A quicker time was just a byproduct of the practice.
 
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I spent the last couple years focusing on loading and shooting rifles (about 95% of my shooting, anyway), and finally realized I was rusty as hell with my pistol shooting. I’ve made it a priority to reserve time every range outing for pistol drills, even if it’s something basic. What a wake up call I had at the range that day
 
If you're focused on the timer then you're not focused on the threat.... One will give you a time, the other will give you hot lead...
I sort of half way agree with this. Working with a timer is for testing your gun skills. Gun skills are important. Threat ID skills are critical, and a timer doesn't do crap to train for Threat ID. But they're two different skills.
 
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You’re correct. The proper way to prepare yourself is to have someone attack you! This artificial stress of a timer will get ya killed and all of those pros that have been on both sides (real world & competition) that say otherwise are just playing to their “fanboys.”

Seriously what happened to you BB? You show up to a match and get embarrassed? Old lady look a little too hard at someone’s ummm... race holster? Why the hatred for action shooting competition and what would be your suggestion to better prepare if a timer is so bad?

"Using this plastic blue gun, BB, show us where the mean open pistol touched you".
 
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I never said timers were bad, I've had one for years and use it on occasion to measure time to first accurate shot but I don't stand there and worry about what that time will be. I focus on being as smooth and fumble free as possible and place the first shot accurately. After that function their worthless.
I assume that you're a shooter like the world has never seen before and can out run the timer anyway and all your times are still set on 00.0 'cause it hasn't had time to react....... Have you ever faced another person intent on killing you?? Until you do you have no idea..
 
Have you ever faced another person intent on killing you?? Until you do you have no idea..
Nope. Sure haven’t which is why I asked “how should one prepare?” The timer is artificial stress but short of having someone attack you or the insane video above I don’t see a better way.
 
I never said timers were bad, I've had one for years and use it on occasion to measure time to first accurate shot but I don't stand there and worry about what that time will be. I focus on being as smooth and fumble free as possible and place the first shot accurately. After that function their worthless.
I assume that you're a shooter like the world has never seen before and can out run the timer anyway and all your times are still set on 00.0 'cause it hasn't had time to react....... Have you ever faced another person intent on killing you?? Until you do you have no idea..

My focus was on executing a smooth, fumble free draw, and accurate shots on target. Not to be speed racer. With repetition, my draw got smoother and my shots got more accurate which naturally improved my time.

Edit: I overlooked your last part. Yes, I have.
 
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My focus was on executing a smooth, fumble free draw, and accurate shots on target. Not to be speed racer. With repetition, my draw got smoother and my shots got more accurate which naturally improved my time.
Funny how that works. I’ll bet it even gave you a chance to try different things and see what worked better for you both time and accuracy wise. Just remember if someone starts shooting at you or charges you with a knife don’t wait for the beep!
 
Funny how that works. I’ll bet it even gave you a chance to try different things and see what worked better for you both time and accuracy wise. Just remember if someone starts shooting at you or charges you with a knife don’t wait for the beep!
Yup, was able to try out little tweaks and see how it helped or hurt. It was great having somebody to watch the motions and offer suggestions based on their experience. I shoot alone a lot, so this was especially beneficial.

I hope to never face a knife again! It happened before I started carrying.
 
Funny how that works. I’ll bet it even gave you a chance to try different things and see what worked better for you both time and accuracy wise. Just remember if someone starts shooting at you or charges you with a knife don’t wait for the beep!

Surefire way to kill me in a gunfight:
Yell "Shooter ready, Standby!"
But never beep....
I'll just stand there....like a lead sponge.
 
Surefire way to kill me in a gunfight:
Yell "Shooter ready, Standby!"
But never beep....
I'll just stand there....like a lead sponge.
I’d unload and show clear and get taken out by the attackers buddy. Assuming they weren’t scared off by my 0.00 second draw and bill drill I did into the original attackers chest. *eye roll*
 
Here's my take. I love to ride sport bikes, play softball and basketball. I'm older and out of shape and can't do any of those things well now . When I did those things I had no false sense of being a professional. I did them because I liked them and they were fun to me. In return, the more I did them the better I got.
 
Here is my perspective on shooting "games" and training for "the real thing". I am training for a Spartan Race this August. I don't have a 5 mile obstacle course set up, I don't have hundreds of people around me to crowd me and watch me, I don't have monitors keeping my time. I barely even know what kind of obstacles I >may< face. So, in the mean time do I just sit back and "think" about whats going to happen? No...I move. I get on an elliptical machine for 70 minutes per day to build my endurance and lose weight. I lift weights to get ready for having to carry heavy objects. I do "cross fit" style exercises to build muscle and endurance. I do all of these so that when I am put in the stress and adrenaline of the race my >body< will have the conditioning it may need to defeat the obstacles. Is it possible my training wont be enough? Absolutely. But I do know that I am far better off for doing it than someone else who is sitting back watching people run the race while saying "Yeah...I can do that...I don't need to train" while they suck down chili dogs and mountain dew by the wagon load.

The same goes for training in self defense shooting. I have absolutely zero ways of preparing for a self defense scenario in a "real" way. I cant have someone randomly start shooting live rounds at me (the police, and my wife, tend to discourage it). So, we put ourselves in situations that best prepare our bodies for what we may face. We shoot from odd angles, off balance, with opposite hands, while sitting, standing, and running. No one will ever claim that shotclock=beingshot at on the stress chart...but specifically what does?

What does irritate me more than people thinking training/shooting games are silly are people who may well have actually had real world experience in a live two way firing range yet never offer any actual insite into what it was like. "Ive been in a few gunfights...but I aint gonna tell you what may save your life, Ill just sit back and make snide remarks when I see you not doin what I think you should."
 
Here's my take. I love to ride sport bikes, play softball and basketball. I'm older and out of shape and can't do any of those things well now . When I did those things I had no false sense of being a professional. I did them because I liked them and they were fun to me. In return, the more I did them the better I got.

But, you only THINK you got better because nobody was shooting at you!

Lets see you hit that slow pitch or try to make a 3 pointer or grind a peg when I am shooting at you with an AK47!
 
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Here’s my take on it.

Comparing the two is pointless (but thats never stopped the internet from doing it!!). But to think there are no takeaways from competition shooting as it applies to actual armed combat (ammunition/mag counting, increased speed of target acquisition and engagement, muscle memory for basic skills like mag changes etc) is incorrect.

There may not be a shot timer in combat but SOMETHING certainly precipitates the gunfight, and reducing the brain’s delay between: “that was a gunshot/RPG/mortar/etc” to the appropriate response: “take cover/acquire target/engage if possible/etc” is a good thing.
 
The Police combat pistol league uses a timer in their matches...just saying.
(There is a PCPL match in Oxford this Saturday in case anyone wants to go and explain what they are doing wrong.)
I will be there. I'll be the guy with a racey looking CZ getting my arse kicked by cops with Grocks.

 
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Here’s my take on it.

Comparing the two is pointless (but thats never stopped the internet from doing it!!). But to think there are no takeaways from competition shooting as it applies to actual armed combat (ammunition/mag counting, increased speed of target acquisition and engagement, muscle memory for basic skills like mag changes etc) is incorrect.

There may not be a shot timer in combat but SOMETHING certainly precipitates the gunfight, and reducing the brain’s delay between: “that was a gunshot/RPG/mortar/etc” to the appropriate response: “take cover/acquire target/engage if possible/etc” is a good thing.

Oh yeah? What would you know about combat...


Oh wait...nevermind...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Here is my perspective on shooting "games" and training for "the real thing". I am training for a Spartan Race this August. I don't have a 5 mile obstacle course set up, I don't have hundreds of people around me to crowd me and watch me, I don't have monitors keeping my time. I barely even know what kind of obstacles I >may< face. So, in the mean time do I just sit back and "think" about whats going to happen? No...I move. I get on an elliptical machine for 70 minutes per day to build my endurance and lose weight. I lift weights to get ready for having to carry heavy objects. I do "cross fit" style exercises to build muscle and endurance. I do all of these so that when I am put in the stress and adrenaline of the race my >body< will have the conditioning it may need to defeat the obstacles. Is it possible my training wont be enough? Absolutely. But I do know that I am far better off for doing it than someone else who is sitting back watching people run the race while saying "Yeah...I can do that...I don't need to train" while they suck down chili dogs and mountain dew by the wagon load.

The same goes for training in self defense shooting. I have absolutely zero ways of preparing for a self defense scenario in a "real" way. I cant have someone randomly start shooting live rounds at me (the police, and my wife, tend to discourage it). So, we put ourselves in situations that best prepare our bodies for what we may face. We shoot from odd angles, off balance, with opposite hands, while sitting, standing, and running. No one will ever claim that shotclock=beingshot at on the stress chart...but specifically what does?

What does irritate me more than people thinking training/shooting games are silly are people who may well have actually had real world experience in a live two way firing range yet never offer any actual insite into what it was like. "Ive been in a few gunfights...but I aint gonna tell you what may save your life, Ill just sit back and make snide remarks when I see you not doin what I think you should."
Well said!
 
But, you only THINK you got better because nobody was shooting at you!

Lets see you hit that slow pitch or try to make a 3 pointer or grind a peg when I am shooting at you with an AK47!

My point is I look at it more of a sport then survival skills.
 
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My point is a look at it more of a sport then survival skills.

And a big part of it is being able to differentiate the differences in the two and understand that neither one is identical to the other but there are takeaways and skills that can be traded off and improved upon.
 
Here is my take on this debate. One is a game one is not... There are a lot of over lapping skills that one learns from shooting competition. Things like basic marksmanship, target acquisition, malfunction clearances, mag changes etc... As others have pointed out if you do not do these under some amount of stress it is hard to simulate doing it in a gunfight. Shooting competitions or training drills under a timer help with this. However, they are not a substitute for the real thing. They do not prepare you to shoot another human being who is shooting back at you or about to do you or a loved one bodily harm. They teach you a mindset to shoot game fast. The score and beating everyone else or beating your own personal best is the goal. You sacrifice other tactics and skills to meet that goal. One is a game the other is not.

The tactics and the refinement of the skills that make you a good "gamer" do not by default directly translate to combat or self defense shooting. They do not teach you how to clear a corner and not get shot. They do not teach you when to seek cover and when to leave cover. They do not teach you went to exist a vehicle or when to stay put. They do not have any real level of threat assessment built into the game beyond target recognition. Etc... The range of tactics you use to shoot as fast as possible with the game on a square range in a competition is not as broad as many gamers present. There is a good deal of overlap but it is not as one to one as many people present it as.

Some of the muscle memory you are developing in order to shoot competition is not going to help you stay alive. Some people will argue that some of that muscle memory will get you killed. I think that too often the competition crowd presents shooting competition as the answer to surviving a gun fight. The mentality is if I can shoot gun games well then I have the skills I need to win a gunfight.

It makes sense because outside of expensive training and having a private range which allows you to shoot and move, which many of us do not have access to, competition is the best "training ground". The other part of the reason so many "gamers" recommend shooting competition is that they love it. They love the game! It is fun and they want to spread the love. People love to compete and they love to get more people into it so offering it up as a way to survive a gunfight is just another arrow in the quiver to get more people into the hobby that they enjoy. Nothing wrong with that but it should be viewed realistically. IMHO

I am not a combat vet nor am I a seasoned gun gamer. I have shot some competitions over the years but have never really gotten into it. I do training when I can like the Vickers class I am going to this weekend. I try to maintain an acceptable level of competence so if I have to a I can attempt to defend myself. I have never been in a gunfight. I do have family members that are or were LEO, Marines, US Army and other occupations where they have been shot at, shot people and seen people die. The number one take away from my conversations with them is that it is not the one who shoots first, who shoot the fastest, reloads the fastest that survives. Its the one that does not loose their shit. It is the one that can assess the situation act correctly and decisively with a reasonable level of skill. The person who can do this not just once but rinse and repeat this process until the event is over is the one who survives. The one recurring take away from my conversations with my family members is that when the SHTF you have to keep your head. A few of them said everything slowed down. They were moving quickly and reacting fast but everything seemed like it was happening slowly. It was this movie like time warp that allowed them to keep their head and stay alive.

As a result of my conversations with my family members I have come to the conclusion that a gunfight and a competition are 2 different skill sets with some over lapping skills. The key IMHO is knowing and being able to apply the correct skills in the correct environment. I like Rob Leatham's comments on this subject in this video.

 
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Here is my perspective on shooting "games" and training for "the real thing". I am training for a Spartan Race this August. I don't have a 5 mile obstacle course set up, I don't have hundreds of people around me to crowd me and watch me, I don't have monitors keeping my time. I barely even know what kind of obstacles I >may< face. So, in the mean time do I just sit back and "think" about whats going to happen? No...I move. I get on an elliptical machine for 70 minutes per day to build my endurance and lose weight. I lift weights to get ready for having to carry heavy objects. I do "cross fit" style exercises to build muscle and endurance. I do all of these so that when I am put in the stress and adrenaline of the race my >body< will have the conditioning it may need to defeat the obstacles. Is it possible my training wont be enough? Absolutely. But I do know that I am far better off for doing it than someone else who is sitting back watching people run the race while saying "Yeah...I can do that...I don't need to train" while they suck down chili dogs and mountain dew by the wagon load.

The same goes for training in self defense shooting. I have absolutely zero ways of preparing for a self defense scenario in a "real" way. I cant have someone randomly start shooting live rounds at me (the police, and my wife, tend to discourage it). So, we put ourselves in situations that best prepare our bodies for what we may face. We shoot from odd angles, off balance, with opposite hands, while sitting, standing, and running. No one will ever claim that shotclock=beingshot at on the stress chart...but specifically what does?

What does irritate me more than people thinking training/shooting games are silly are people who may well have actually had real world experience in a live two way firing range yet never offer any actual insite into what it was like. "Ive been in a few gunfights...but I aint gonna tell you what may save your life, Ill just sit back and make snide remarks when I see you not doin what I think you should."
Hear..Hear...well said.
 
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