Eyes Opened at Battery Oaks

11B CIB said:
Here’s my take on it.

Comparing the two is pointless (but thats never stopped the internet from doing it!!). But to think there are no takeaways from competition shooting as it applies to actual armed combat (ammunition/mag counting, increased speed of target acquisition and engagement, muscle memory for basic skills like mag changes etc) is incorrect.

There may not be a shot timer in combat but SOMETHING certainly precipitates the gunfight, and reducing the brain’s delay between: “that was a gunshot/RPG/mortar/etc” to the appropriate response: “take cover/acquire target/engage if possible/etc” is a good thing.
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Great perspective....only because I agree. The great Clint Smith says he is amazed at people who say..you will react as you train....he says....no you won't, it won't even be close! Does that mean you don't train? Well of course not.
 
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The most useful enter-train-ment I've experienced along these lines were some scenarios I did with a group of guys at my club. One such scenario had you armed with an air-soft pistol, strapped into the driver's seat of an immobile vehicle- a pretty common place to find yourself in CLT. A person/persons approach the vehicle. Every time we ran it was different. Sometimes they have ill intent sometimes they don't. Sometimes they acted quickly, slowly, or not at all. It was very sobering at the end of that day to know that when it went south my survival odds were about 50/50 even though I KNEW I was in a scenario.
 
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Anyone every do Simunition training? I took a course from OpSpec training in KY. They offer Simunition training for pistol and rifle. One of the gun I trained with did the course and said it was excellent. As close to the real thing as you can get.
 
Timers are useful tools. But is just a tool. As is If you think that using one won't/can't make one better at shooting under stress doesn't understand the concept of stress inoculation. But it isn't a multitool, and you have to use all of the tools to become better.
 
wvsig said:
Anyone every do Simunition training? I took a course from OpSpec training in KY. They offer Simunition training for pistol and rifle. One of the gun I trained with did the course and said it was excellent. As close to the real thing as you can get.
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Yes. And they hurt. But excellent training.
 
Chuckman said:
Yes. And they hurt. But excellent training.
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Yeah that is what the other guy said. The first time he got shot with one it surprised him just how much it stung.
 
People who come here for the first visit to shoot, don't even know we have timers. The second or third visit, we try them with timers. The Wizard Drill here is "KING". Go to UTUBE and type in Ken Hackathorn Wizard Drill. DO NOT vary from his instructions and you will learn things you didn't know. Remember, it only counts done cold.
Here is my sincere hope for those that visit here, as I told Joseph yesterday. He had never shot from a car before [I'm sure all of you have], he did it enough yesterday, that if that awful day comes to have to do that, he won't be doing it for the first time. That's all I try to do here. Introduce you to things you do dailey but under terrible circumstances. We shoot from every situation that any visitor can think of that he may have to do that terrible deed. So that he won't be OJT when the flag flies. We can't cover everything BUT we can do anything you want to try, anything that is safe and sensible. As I have said before, if you want to rappel from a second story window firing full auto suppressed fire [even though we have everything necessary to do that], with your hair on fire...this ain't the place for you. If you want to feel a bit safer going to the ATM or WalMart after dark....I think we can at least set up those things for you so that you won't be learning cold, if God forbid, you have to use those skills. I know that shooting is a perishable skill. That's why, even at 70, I shoot everyday. As I have for many years. I won't belabor the point again. I just want each and every one of you fine shooters to know, we are here for you, and it's all free.
 
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I enjoy shooting competition. I like the fact that it is a game and don’t subscribe to the training for real life that can be found in say an IDPA match. That’s fine if it’s your thing and more power to you if it is. I, unlike some, don’t despise you just because you prefer a different type of shooting than I do and can see the value of a more real world application than that of a USPSA match. With that said I train for something that is almost guaranteed to happen every weekend; a match. With that training I learn to handle a firearm under the artificial stress of a timer, people watching, and the competitive results of said match. Do these skills directly translate to me being attacked and not losing my head? No. Could they help? Absolutely. I’ve even taken a more proactive approach to training with my carry gun from concealment as my limited blaster is not the same thing I carry so being more familiar with my glock is important.

As far as situational awareness is concerned, I think every day we all monitor our environments and recognizing threats. This is something that comes naturally. A person’s demeanor and body language for instance being used to determine their intentions. Not saying classes/tactics won’t help with this just saying unless you’re socially retarded you already do this. If I need to start playing COD again to increase my threat/non-threat recognition and awareness speed then, much to my wife’s dismay, I’ll just have to pick up the sticks again. It’s in the name of safety (joking).

I don’t think USPSA is the same as combat and to that end, the training I do for comp will not fully prepare me for a self defense scenario but having shot ~20,000 rounds last year in practice and in matches I can guarantee you don’t want me > or any other serious USPSA competitor < shooting at you!
 
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From my perpective, any training is good training.

I know I can drill static targets through the same hole a 20 yards with a pistol. I know I can come close to that with a rifle at 50 yards.

I don't know how I will react with moving or multiple targets. Though I have competed in timed and moving situations, I know I need more training. I am now, and will continue to train.

Addendum: "I know enough to know that I don't know enough."
 
Once, at Battery Oaks, we practiced shooting from a moving vehicle.

We have done many different drills and are always willing to try something new. I've been going to Billy's almost every Sunday for about 7 years now. Before I started shooting there, all of my shooting was standing still and shooting at a stationary target. That's all I knew. Now, we practice so many things and my skill level is much better than it ever was. Still, I'm usually slower than most but it's what I'm capable of. And, I'm OK with that.

These days my situational awareness is better than ever and I'm confident that if I'm ever put into a bad situation, I'll have a chance to survive. I'm fortunate to have a nice place to hang out and shoot and fortunate to have a friend with Billy's knowledge and experience.
 
Interesting and varied comments so far. All I can add is anyone who has the chance to spend sometime at Battery Oaks will leave as a better prepared to defend themselves, and if you really listen and pay attention you should leave a better person.
 
Slappy McTrigger said:
I don’t think USPSA is the same as combat and to that end, the training I do for comp will not fully prepare me for a self defense scenario but having shot ~20,000 rounds last year in practice and in matches I can guarantee you don’t want me > or any other serious USPSA competitor < shooting at you!
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Exactly.

Who wants to get in a gunfight with Jerry Miculek for example? Not me. Even if he has to shoot an upside down pistol and I have a rifle and we are at 200 yards :)
 
Amazing video "HALF OF 8"!

Worlds Collide, Rob Pincus introduces Rob Leatham to a shooting drill that can't be "gamed" and forces shooters to think on their feet as they engage with a set of three standing targets.

Honestly the entire series Worlds Collide is a great watch.

 
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Geezer said:
Once, at Battery Oaks, we practiced shooting from a moving vehicle.

We have done many different drills and are always willing to try something new. I've been going to Billy's almost every Sunday for about 7 years now. Before I started shooting there, all of my shooting was standing still and shooting at a stationary target. That's all I knew. Now, we practice so many things and my skill level is much better than it ever was. Still, I'm usually slower than most but it's what I'm capable of. And, I'm OK with that.

These days my situational awareness is better than ever and I'm confident that if I'm ever put into a bad situation, I'll have a chance to survive. I'm fortunate to have a nice place to hang out and shoot and fortunate to have a friend with Billy's knowledge and experience.
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Geezer, to quote Bill Jordon, you'll do to ride the river with. That's the highest praise he had for anybody.
 
old bear said:
Interesting and varied comments so far. All I can add is anyone who has the chance to spend sometime at Battery Oaks will leave as a better prepared to defend themselves, and if you really listen and pay attention you should leave a better person.
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Thanks old bear, kind words from a friend. See you the last week end in the month. Looking forward to it. Any of you that might come to the Myrtle Beach gun show, look us up. We will be beside the CFF table. Afterwards, any that would like to stop by The Battery Oaks will be welcome.
 
The timer is one ruler by which to measure progress. Bullets on target quickly is not a bad thing in a fight or in competition.
If you lift weights or swing kettlebells, how do you know if you are getting stronger if you don’t know how much weight you have? If I am sprinting with a sled, and don’t use a timer or know how much weight is on the sled, how do I measure/push for improvement or see if my current method is giving me results?
I just recently started shooting IDPA. Of course it isn’t a fight, but it is a good training tool, one leg of the stool so to speak.
These same debates happened with martial arts guys, and are just as ludicrous. When the UFC became popular, many(not all) people doing traditional karate, aikido, etc... would make similar arguments about how it’s “not a fight/no referees in the street/etc...”. While technically right, it’s still one of the best ways for a lot of folks to learn how to do violence to their fellow man in an environment where the other guy is trying to smash you, too. The debates about competitive shooting seem to be drawn along the same lines
 
BatteryOaksBilly said:
Thanks old bear, kind words from a friend. See you the last week end in the month. Looking forward to it. Any of you that might come to the Myrtle Beach gun show, look us up. We will be beside the CFF table. Afterwards, any that would like to stop by The Battery Oaks will be welcome.
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I plan on being there. Hoping the wife will come along so I can introduce her to you. She's yet to attend a gun show.
 
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I suspect that a lot of floks(not all,of course) crap on competitive shooting (or MMA) because egos get bruised badly. When you think of yourself at a certain level, then some fat accountant smokes you on a stage, or some skinny-fat 25 year old video gamer chokes you out, it hurts. Some folks run from that possibility, some folks seek it out like a fat kid looking for a buffet in order to improve.
 
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I have never shot in an organized competition, so there's that. My question to the ones that do compete, do you use your carry gun or a tricked out gun just for competition?
 
T
Geezer said:
Billy knows how to put stress on people. :D (Inside joke)

I agree with Clint Smith, throw the timer away.* Learn to shoot good, when you're in the middle of a gun fight, you're going to shoot fast anyway.


*I say this because I'm slow.
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There is always a timer............the real life self defense timer is the other guy!
 
Geezer said:
I have never shot in an organized competition, so there's that. My question to the ones that do compete, do you use your carry gun or a tricked out gun just for competition?
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When I was shooting IDPA, I always used my carry gun. When I get back into it (this year hopefully), I will be using my carry gun again. I am not good enough to worry about where I place so I use it as a chance to practice things I can’t at a static range and to have the timer as artificial stress.
 
Geezer said:
I have never shot in an organized competition, so there's that. My question to the ones that do compete, do you use your carry gun or a tricked out gun just for competition?
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Carry gun. It's kinda the point for me. I carry AIWB and keep an APLC WML on my 19, but IDPA rules don't allow that. So I shoot it as close as I can to what/how I carry. Plus, it's enjoyable.
 
Geezer said:
I have never shot in an organized competition, so there's that. My question to the ones that do compete, do you use your carry gun or a tricked out gun just for competition?
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My take:

If at all possible, I use a fun match/race gun! Because: that's what they are made for and those are the kind of guns I enjoy, and I am not doing it to train for my carry gun.
I first started with a tricked out Ruger .22 pistol and 10/22 slicked up a bit.

When I moved to centerfire, I started with a basic cheap used CZ75. I converted it to a SA 3.5lb trigger. I added better controls, like extended mag release. So, not a "race gun" per se, but just a basic gun that was raced up a little.

I have used my Glock 19 for few matches (2gun). It has only sights and a 3.5lb disco. I would like to use it more as I enjoy it very much, but I have two nicer guns for matches that I tend to gravitate towards.
I now have 2 match guns, one in .40 (for limited major division) and one in 9mm (for multigun and/or limited minor).

But you can use any gun. There are matches out there for anybody and any gun. Try one, I think you'll enjoy yourself!

Here's the gun that got me into several years of bigtime shooting enjoyment, and didn't cost a lot:

IMG_4736.JPG
 
Mattyb said:
The timer is one ruler by which to measure progress. Bullets on target quickly is not a bad thing in a fight or in competition.
If you lift weights or swing kettlebells, how do you know if you are getting stronger if you don’t know how much weight you have? If I am sprinting with a sled, and don’t use a timer or know how much weight is on the sled, how do I measure/push for improvement or see if my current method is giving me results?
I just recently started shooting IDPA. Of course it isn’t a fight, but it is a good training tool, one leg of the stool so to speak.
These same debates happened with martial arts guys, and are just as ludicrous. When the UFC became popular, many(not all) people doing traditional karate, aikido, etc... would make similar arguments about how it’s “not a fight/no referees in the street/etc...”. While technically right, it’s still one of the best ways for a lot of folks to learn how to do violence to their fellow man in an environment where the other guy is trying to smash you, too. The debates about competitive shooting seem to be drawn along the same lines
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MMA destroyed a lot of looooong held myths, lol. ONE TOUCH DEATH PUNCH BRO.
I love MMA for that reason. It's truth in action.

I think boxing is a good example: boxing isn't the be all/ end all in fighting. It's a game. There are rules. Best boxer may not be best street fighter, no doubt about that. May not know how to wrestle. But one thing is absolutely positively true: you do not want to get into a fist fight with a well trained boxer!
They are not going to be scared of getting punched. They are going to know exactly what to do if you try to punch them. And, it is going to hurt you.

I think it's also important to understand most boxers are not boxing to be better street fighters. They are doing it to be better boxers. They enjoy the game and all the positives that come with it, and it certainly isn't hurting their self defense skills.
 
NKD said:
MMA destroyed a lot of looooong held myths, lol. ONE TOUCH DEATH PUNCH BRO.
I love MMA for that reason. It's truth in action.

I think boxing is a good example: boxing isn't the be all/ end all in fighting. It's a game. There are rules. Best boxer may not be best street fighter, no doubt about that. May not know how to wrestle. But one thing is absolutely positively true: you do not want to get into a fist fight with a well trained boxer!
They are not going to be scared of getting punched. They are going to know exactly what to do if you try to punch them. And, it is going to hurt you.

I think it's also important to understand most boxers are not boxing to be better street fighters. They are doing it to be better boxers. They enjoy the game and all the positives that come with it, and it certainly isn't hurting their self defense skills.
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True enough. Boxing might not be the greatest “fighting art” on Earth; however, a guy that boxes for fun, wrestled in junior college, shoots monthly USPSA matches, works out and dabbles in BJJ when he can is head and shoulders above 99.9% of the rest of the world when it comes to protecting themselves and family. They are hell on wheels because they have fought/shot under stress against resisting opponents with quantifiable feedback and tangible measures of performance. I want to be that guy, and I am working on it. I don’t want to be the guy doing kata or aikido with cooperative training partners that only shoots for tight groups and is too afraid to find out how good they aren’t.
Apologies for the derailment.
 
Great thread. My 2 cents:
Shooting rifles is my passion; shooting pistols is not. It’s fun, but I’m not driven to compete with a pistol, for example. For those of you who are, more power to you.
I shoot pistol to train for self-defense, period. Like most people, I have limited time and budget. I want to get the most “bang” for the buck in my training. I also want to develop muscle memory that works in combat rather than fails. So I mix it up: daily dry-fire exercises at home; live fire at the range every week; and an advanced pistol class every couple of months. Soon I’ll start shooting IDPA as well. My point is, they are all effective training methods, but I don’t rely primarily on any one of them.
I sure as hell use a timer. DOJ statistics say most gunfights are over within a few seconds. Self-defense trainers say you need to draw and fire two shots accurately within about 1.5s to defeat a person armed with a knife or club at 21 feet. If survival depends on being just 1s faster than the threat, then making a specific number of accurate hits on target within a specific time period is a critical measure of shooting skill. At any given time, I have specific goals in my training, depending on my current skill level. For example, from a relaxed standing position I can reliably draw from my EDC (concealed) holster and accurately hit the target at 5 yards twice in 1.8s. My trainer says that’s not fast enough. So I’m training to reduce that time. I have goals for malfunctions, tactical reloads, movement, shooting from different positions, weak hand shooting, etc. They are all based on some metric that involves both accuracy and time.
How I will respond in a real self-defense scenario is unpredictable, but I’m convinced this approach to training will improve my chances of surviving if a situation goes sideways.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
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Longrange said:
Great thread.
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This is a good thread.
I'm not the super fastest-est, or the bullseye quarter-from-the-sky guy, but I make up for it by being real good-lookin'. :rolleyes:

What I might be able to add though, is throughout my life as a professional idiot...commercial scuba diver, motorcycle racer, electrician, general hooligan...is it's not the situation that kills you.
It's the panic.
I'm not talking about feeling your heart race at warp speed. That's gonna happen. But..,can your mind over-ride that? It's something that only you can answer for yourself.
I can only promise you this; if you can can get past the panic of whatever or wherever you find yourself, you can then get on a gun forum and tell everyone how pretty you are.
 
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jimmyjames8 said:
I love shooting the old USPSA stds like El Prez and Mozambique. Theres a reason they are still in everyday use.
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The "El Prez" will be front and center when we are here for "The Gathering". 7 months away, be getting ready by brushing up on Cooper's El Prez and The Steak House. The qualifiers are Hackathorn's "Wizard" and "1,2,3". Go to YouTube and look at them as shot by Ken Hackathorn. They will be shot EXACTLY like he shoots them. The Forum's Leader and I are giving away prizes through 5th place. These will be announced at a MUCH later date. As always here, the cost to guests in $0. Plan to come. Remember, we can fit in 200 comfortably. I would like this to turn into something the Forum could do every Fall.
 
BatteryOaksBilly said:
when we are here for "The Gathering". 7 months away,
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My apologies if I missed it as I know there were 3 different weekend dates being considered but did you finalize a date in October?

I'm definitely hauling myself down for the visit regardless of what weekend you chose but I wanted to mark my calendar.
 
JustKeepSwimming said:
My apologies if I missed it as I know there were 3 different weekend dates being considered but did you finalize a date in October?

I'm definitely hauling myself down for the visit regardless of what weekend you chose but I wanted to mark my calendar.
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We will nail down a date very soon. It will be October 13 & 14 or October 20 & 21. The first weekend is out for Billy and the last weekend is Halloween weekend. We will decide on one of the two and let everyone know soon so plans can be made.
 
Geezer said:
We will nail down a date very soon. It will be October 13 & 14 or October 20 & 21. The first weekend is out for Billy and the last weekend is Halloween weekend. We will decide on one of the two and let everyone know soon so plans can be made.
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Much appreciated...thanks.
 
I want to thank Billy and Battery Oaks for all the training I have received over the past few years. Billy has made me aware of different types of situations I could be in. This day and time you need to be aware of whats going on at all times. I have improved my shooting ability with the timer and without the timer.
I could not ask for a better trainer. I enjoy shooting and practicing my skills on Sunday evenings with Billy, Geezer and other friends. Oh! I almost forgot about
Ronnie Sue and her apple pie and ice cream.
 
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