and something called Active.
https://techcrunch.com/2018/04/25/f...rth-america-but-the-mustang-and-focus-active/
https://techcrunch.com/2018/04/25/f...rth-america-but-the-mustang-and-focus-active/
Ford stops selling cars except Mustang
- Thread starter turkeydance
- Start date
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Well...in my opinion, they're setting themselves up for a potential issue later, when oil prices inevitably shoot up again. Cars are a hunk of market to be giving up.
ES44AC
Happy to be here
Just what I was thinking.
I've understood Honda is in big trouble because they mostly built their reputation on cars.
So the line up is already silly. The fiesta, focus, and Cmax are all small econo-boxes. Consolidate and keep 1 econo-box vehicle that you can sell for $16-20k. I'm thinking a cross between the escape and Cmax, maybe a slightly roomier Subaru Crosstrek but not made as well.
The fusion and Taurus, who cares? The sales of these models must look atrocious. It's not the 90's where a Taurus was one of the more popular cars, it's SUV's. No reason for a Taurus and Fusion to begin with. Good bye.
The mustang has too much heritage and allows them to stretch their performance imaginations while reaching the masses with prices ranging from $20k's to $70k's. Of course you keep it.
I was told a few years back that the only reason they brought out these little cars was to help with fleet mpg. They sold very small numbers but it helped with Obama fleet requirements.
Well last I heard the Fiesta wasnt coming back anyway (theyve created new gen of them, but not coming to North America)
Youre right - keep the focus hatch for under 20 and they'll be fine.
Yea why not? When gets gets expensive and things crater they can just look to the .gov to give them free money. Worked for their competition last time around.
fishgutzy
Senior Member
Eliminate CAFE entirely and this will be the natural result. American car companies generally suck at making small cars. But they do a great job of making trucks, SUV's and muscle cars.
The American market has also forced foreign small car makers to to produce small cars for better interior geometries because the average American male is a lot taller than the average Asian male. In fact, the average American women is taller than the average Asian male. My Veloster is a product of this design consideration.
FORD will always make a ton of money with trucks, SUVs and the Mustang.
Gas prices won't go up substantially unless another Democrat gets into the white house. Democrats ruling CA will continue to raise gas taxes not because they don't like SUV's. It is because they hate affordable private transportation and are sick of sitting in traffic behind the help.
The high price of gas in Europe is due to high taxes, not high oil prices.
The American market has also forced foreign small car makers to to produce small cars for better interior geometries because the average American male is a lot taller than the average Asian male. In fact, the average American women is taller than the average Asian male. My Veloster is a product of this design consideration.
FORD will always make a ton of money with trucks, SUVs and the Mustang.
Gas prices won't go up substantially unless another Democrat gets into the white house. Democrats ruling CA will continue to raise gas taxes not because they don't like SUV's. It is because they hate affordable private transportation and are sick of sitting in traffic behind the help.
The high price of gas in Europe is due to high taxes, not high oil prices.
fishgutzy
Senior Member
CAFE forced FORD and every other maker to kill the station wagon. That led to the explosion of the SUV market since families still needed the hauling capacity. And Minivans just are not cool, are way under powered, and handle like crap.
Yup, everyone has to play that silly game. This also rumored as to why Ford limited production of the Raptor the first year or 2 and why Dodge limited Hellcat production initially. Classic case of Gov putting its nose (feet, arms, head, shoulders, knees, and toes too) where they don't belong.
fishgutzy
Senior Member
Flex fuel trucks that get 15mpg actually get credited for around 80mpg because flex fuel is only 15% gas. So on a gas mileage basis they score higher.
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Let the market decide. Still, the stupid CEOs will undoubtedly have a case of Fred Flintstone syndrome and stick their foot in their mouths with announcements. I remember one such idiot saying that people will only be buying small cars in a few years.
Back when gas prices were $4 a gallon we had a grade A GOP a hole in the whitehouse who was saying it was supply and demand when in reality it was a bubble from price run up trading on the commodities futures market.
drypowder
Les Deplorables
OPEC is much less powerful today than it was prior to the US shale boom. And this new supply of oil can be turned on much quicker than offshore rigs - i.e., supply can be increased fairly quickly in response to increased demand. Combine the US new role as the marginal producer with the shift toward electric vehicles (China is ahead of the US on this) and the supply/demand balance for oil has structurally shifted. Of course a Middle East war could disrupt things, but short of war, it will be very difficult for oil to reach the highs it has reached in the past.
This is a US-only shift. Ford will still make cars for other markets. In the US, yeah, Honda is at a disadvantage given its lineup, but this has been the case for years - Ford's announcement isn't heralding a shift in buyer interest, but merely reflecting where buyers already are. For years, all of Ford's profit was coming from trucks and SUVs.
And it does have the new Ridgeline along with the Pilot and CRV. And Honda will benefit from reduced competition in the US car market.
The Ford Focus Active, which will be a crossover hatchback, will fill that role.
In addition to the flex fuel math @fishgutzy mentioned, Ford will be adding hybrid powertrains to many of their vehicles, including the F-150 and Mustang.
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I'll believe the shift when I see it.
Electric cars have a few faults that I can see. Hybrids take care of part of it, but still...
First, a significant number of miles on my vehicle is on the road. I can't drive from SC to VA on an all-electric vehicle. And even if the infrastructure was in place to support charging, that's STILL a significant amount of time to charge the battery enough to make the entire trip. I can easily drive about 500 miles in my LeSabre before having to stop for gas. And that stop can be as short as the time it takes to fill the tank and get back on the road.
Second, all electric vehicles are still tiny for my needs. I have a wife and three teens. Where am I going to put everybody? And anything we may need to take with us, too?
Third, they STILL haven't convinced me that the used car prices for all electric vehicles are going to be worth it, because I, for one, am really not into buying a used vehicle and then finding out I need to replace the battery for several thousand dollars shortly afterwards. For me, I tend to buy used vehicles (with a decently low amount of miles for the age) around the 7 to 10 year range. And then I expect to drive that vehicle until it's no longer worth keeping, for whatever reason. The last car, for example, I got rid of at 311,000 miles (around 225,000 mine) after several years.
Fourth...we are STILL a long, long way towards having a national power grid robust enough to handle the kind of power requirements that a significant percentage of personally owned vehicles would require to operate. Not to mention the electrical power generating capacity for it (because, you know...there's a protest group for every frickin' possible source of electrical power generating process capable of generating high enough power densities to be useful in this manner).
As for oil production in this country; yeah, it's up. It's up largely due to the high oil prices we had for several years, which may sound counter-intuitive. This is because when oil prices are really low, maintaining oil rigs, and setting up new rigs, is cost prohibitive. When prices go low, the oil pumps in Texas, for example, are still run as long as they're pumping oil; but when they break down, the pump is pretty much "retired in place" until oil prices go high enough to make getting it operational worth the cost again. Happens all the time.
So OPEC isn't strictly "less powerful" today because of the shale oil boom in this country; it's because they use the resources they have to help maintain their own market and market strength, relatively speaking with respect to the world market. They're always looking at this in the long term. They'll drive oil prices low for several reasons...such as to help keep people buying oil from them AND it helps minimize oil production elsewhere in the world (because it's more affordable to buy from OPEC). When they've got the market in their favor this way, they keep it that way for a while and as oil production falters in the more developed nations (because it costs more money in developed nations to access, develop, maintain, and expand their own oil resources), they can shift the market prices gradually higher as the developed nations needs increase.
The oil is a "boom and bust" type of industry because of this.
Electric cars have a few faults that I can see. Hybrids take care of part of it, but still...
First, a significant number of miles on my vehicle is on the road. I can't drive from SC to VA on an all-electric vehicle. And even if the infrastructure was in place to support charging, that's STILL a significant amount of time to charge the battery enough to make the entire trip. I can easily drive about 500 miles in my LeSabre before having to stop for gas. And that stop can be as short as the time it takes to fill the tank and get back on the road.
Second, all electric vehicles are still tiny for my needs. I have a wife and three teens. Where am I going to put everybody? And anything we may need to take with us, too?
Third, they STILL haven't convinced me that the used car prices for all electric vehicles are going to be worth it, because I, for one, am really not into buying a used vehicle and then finding out I need to replace the battery for several thousand dollars shortly afterwards. For me, I tend to buy used vehicles (with a decently low amount of miles for the age) around the 7 to 10 year range. And then I expect to drive that vehicle until it's no longer worth keeping, for whatever reason. The last car, for example, I got rid of at 311,000 miles (around 225,000 mine) after several years.
Fourth...we are STILL a long, long way towards having a national power grid robust enough to handle the kind of power requirements that a significant percentage of personally owned vehicles would require to operate. Not to mention the electrical power generating capacity for it (because, you know...there's a protest group for every frickin' possible source of electrical power generating process capable of generating high enough power densities to be useful in this manner).
As for oil production in this country; yeah, it's up. It's up largely due to the high oil prices we had for several years, which may sound counter-intuitive. This is because when oil prices are really low, maintaining oil rigs, and setting up new rigs, is cost prohibitive. When prices go low, the oil pumps in Texas, for example, are still run as long as they're pumping oil; but when they break down, the pump is pretty much "retired in place" until oil prices go high enough to make getting it operational worth the cost again. Happens all the time.
So OPEC isn't strictly "less powerful" today because of the shale oil boom in this country; it's because they use the resources they have to help maintain their own market and market strength, relatively speaking with respect to the world market. They're always looking at this in the long term. They'll drive oil prices low for several reasons...such as to help keep people buying oil from them AND it helps minimize oil production elsewhere in the world (because it's more affordable to buy from OPEC). When they've got the market in their favor this way, they keep it that way for a while and as oil production falters in the more developed nations (because it costs more money in developed nations to access, develop, maintain, and expand their own oil resources), they can shift the market prices gradually higher as the developed nations needs increase.
The oil is a "boom and bust" type of industry because of this.
Don't forget that an electric car doesn't eliminate the pollution, it just pushes it upstream to the Duke Power(s) of the world.
Scott Free
Well-Known Member
"The press release also talks about a new type of vehicle, though it sounds like a crossover. This so-called white space vehicle will “combine the best attributes of cars and utilities, such as higher ride height, space and versatility.”
This will be the new Mach I.
...and with companies churning out cars like the Charger, Camry, and the Stinger GT, Ford really can't keep up with them, especially since a HUGE part of their profits come from Trucks and Fleet vehicles.
This will be the new Mach I.
...and with companies churning out cars like the Charger, Camry, and the Stinger GT, Ford really can't keep up with them, especially since a HUGE part of their profits come from Trucks and Fleet vehicles.
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Sounds like lefty math because it takes more energy to make flex fuel than gasoline.
Scott Free
Well-Known Member
Source?
Dirtydirtysouf
Well-Known Member
Fix Or Repair Daily
drypowder
Les Deplorables
Manufacturers are still making ICE vehicles, and they'll be making hybrids for a long time.
Hybrid SUVs. And pretty much every manufacturer is working on EVs, and no doubt quite a lot of those will be SUVs.
If everyone thought the way you did, the resale value for hybrid and electric vehicles would be in the toilet. A quick Craigslist search for used Priuses suggests otherwise. So while some market participants feel as you do, other participants clearly do not.
Yes, high oil prices helped launch the shale revolution, but it's here now and it's not going away. Your read on OPEC seems very odd. OPEC tried oversupplying the market in the hopes of bankrupting the shale industry, and the shale producers responded to the pressure by becoming much more efficient. Their breakevens dropped by tens of dollars per barrel. OPEC cried "uncle" first because they could't withstand the pain anymore (the OPEC countries national budgets are highly dependent on oil profits), and instead of crippling shale, they made the American shale industry more resilient. American shale is the marginal producer, and since they aren't part of OPEC, and because they can turn operations on/off much more quickly than traditional rigs, they can respond to higher prices relatively quickly.
For sure, oil is a boom and bust industry, as is every commodity. My point is that the structure of the oil market has changed substantially, not that its cyclical nature has changed.
But don't take my word for it - just look at Saudi Arabia's actions. They are going to sell part of their stake in Saudi Aramco to the public. Crown Prince MBS sees the writing on the wall, and he doesn't want SA to continue to hang its future on oil. Also, notice that NOBODY is talking about "peak oil" anymore. Before the shale revolution, "peak oil" prognostications were spewed by every pundit and their mama.
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All the car books have been saying Dodge was on the way out and not a single one ever mentioned this Ford deal. Predictions are that the Ram division will absorb the van production and that will wipe out Dodge. There haven't been any Dodge trucks for some time as part of the plan to do away with Dodge they went to the Ram name. Fleet sales on the Chargers have helped prop them up and the Hot Rods are being built on decades old equipment. Anyway it'll be fun to see how it all shakes out. I went on a buying spree for about 6 years but that's over for me. I might change my mind but for now no more NEW vehicles for me. No more Ford cars but Mustangs....WOW. That's why I keep putting one foot in front of the other. I wanna see what's gonna happen next.
This is true...however, it becomes a question of efficiency.
When you think about it, it's really incredibly inefficient, from an energy expenditure point, to transport millions of people by individual privately owned vehicles. It's more efficient to transport those millions of people by some form of mass transit system. Bus or train, for example.
(That's not an argument for doing away with privately owned vehicles, however...it's just a statement of fact.)
Electric drive is FAR more efficient than internal combustion. Electric vehicles convert about 60% (give or take) of their energy into motion at the wheels. Internal combustion vehicles, however, are around 19% (give or take).
Electric power generation efficiencies vary, depending on the generation method. Even so, their generation efficiencies are typically significantly higher than that for internal combustion vehicle efficiencies for a lot of reasons. One very important factor in this is that power plants typically operate as constantly as possible in their most efficient power production level. They don't vary their output up and down any more than they have to for this reason.
And transmission efficiencies are pretty high for electricity as well.
The end result is that powering millions of privately owned electric vehicles, while shifting the pollution burden to power plants, will produce an overall reduction in pollution levels because of this.
Don't forget...I did acknowledge that hybrid vehicles did address some of the shortcomings of electric-only vehicles. Your points here address that more specifically.
My opinion on electric vehicle resale values are my own and for the specific reasons I stated in my previous posting. If, in the long term, my concerns turn out not to be valid, then that will change my prospective outlook on the used electric vehicle market. However, as yet, I don't believe the market is established well enough and long enough for my concerns to have been adequately addressed as yet.
Oil prices are cyclic on major swings on a period that's not measured in months or years, but decades. Even so, if you look at the price of oil/gas over the last several decades, you'll see that it's the ONE commodity that HASN'T kept up with the inflation rate. In fact, it's significantly BELOW the inflation rate, for all that people cry about gas prices increasing.
And yes, you can bet that oil companies in the States understand these strategies and work to counter them in their own way in order to mitigate their effect on oil businesses in the States.
But we also have to deal with government regulations that other countries don't have, and a cubic butt-ton of people putting every obstacle they can up against oil production, transportation, and refinement in this country. That alone produces HUGE costs for oil companies in the States and foreign oil producing companies know this and work with those advantages to them in the market.
Here's an interesting inflation adjusted chart going back to the 1940s:
http://www.macrotrends.net/1369/crude-oil-price-history-chart
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drypowder
Les Deplorables
+1
This is an argument I've made before - the capacity utilization of passenger vehicles is very low, ~5%. 5% utilization is fine if it's a small ticket purchase like a tablet or a drill/driver set. But 5% utilization on what is most people's second largest purchase (after a home) is incredibly inefficient.
This is why private vehicle ownership is going to decline precipitously as autonomous driving becomes more widespread (eliminating the largest cost of a ride sharing service like Uber or Lyft). Why pay for a vehicle that spends 95% of its life parked if you can have cheap access to a vehicle whenever you need it and someone else pays for insurance, registration, maintenance, and repairs?
Of course there will be a market for privately owned cars, but it will be much smaller than it is today. Even in cities outside of NYC, we are seeing car-nevers (millenials who have never owned a car). This will grow quickly once autonomous driving gains a foothold in the market and ridesharing prices plummet.
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Yep.
To press home the efficiency point, a train can move a ton of cargo 470 miles on one gallon of fuel.
Three major reasons for this that I can think of:
1. Trains can move a SH*TLOAD more cargo in one haul than trucks can.
2. Trains run on steel wheels on dedicated steel tracks. Not rubber wheels on streets/roads/highways that go all over the place in all kinds of conditions.
3. Diesel-electric locomotives spend the vast majority of their moving time operating at their most efficient conditions, whereas internal combustion driven trucks do not.
Was from a article I read about 5 years ago...want to say Car and Driver.
Even if today if it's a postive energy source a gallon of gas gives off more energy than ethanol by a considerable 30-40%.
Scott Free
Well-Known Member
Interesting. I've been curious about stuff like this, because I hear people talking about getting their car "tuned" for E85 with significant HP increases.
This is because E85 ups the octane and is harder to ignite (can run more timing, more boost, nitrious, etc). The kicker is you need to up your fuel system capacity. I to use to run e85 because I could get close to 100 more horsepower
Its understandable IMO. It sucks for all the people who are going to lose their jobs but from a corporate point of view why hold on to manufacturing lines that only account for 10% of your sales.
Spend the money they save on R&D into EVs and other business lines.
Spend the money they save on R&D into EVs and other business lines.
Hopefully they will move those folks over to the truck and suv lines.
drypowder
Les Deplorables
I don't this will have much impact on their European operations. In Europe, cars are popular. The roads in Europe, especially in and around cities, tend to be narrower and parking spots are smaller. Also, gas is very expensive, so fuel efficiency really matters.
Picture traffic in Paris or Rome. Then picture a F150 on those streets.
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Also, the Europeans didnt jump on the big truck trend like America has (not saying they dont have them, they just arent like here where people buy them just to have them vs their actual needs). Lots of hatches and such over there. And, like you said, fuel efficiency is key
