Generators

SimpleMan

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Irma has me thinking about a generator. Since we are some of the fortunate ones who live in a place where you can shoot and pee in your own yard, we are also the first to lose power and last to get turned back on. We can go a day or two, but weeks can get tiring. The in laws are on the same property, and the paw-n-law runs the well (that we share) and a few lights and his outdoor wood furnace, which gives them hot water, off a portable generator.

So in my brief searching, I came across a 25,000 watt PTO powered unit at Northern Tool. We have a 65 hp diesel tractor that would run this thing for weeks on a tank of fuel while powering both houses (to a degree). I'm just looking for hot water, a light bulb or two and the fridge to stay cool. This thing is priced a $3,000 which is cheap for the wattage. So, would a PTO powered head be a more efficient source of power than a portable? I have no need ever for a portable other than power outage. I also don't need another small engine to keep up either. What am I missing?
 
25kw will do an entire house, including air conditioning (btw we got a 22kw for my parents house that will do anything except the emergency heat strips on the hvac).

It seems to me a tractor and PTO was designed to deliver power and the diesel will do so nore efficiently than a gasoline eninge. I think the price is somewhat reflecting the fact that this arrangement would be less convenient or impossible for most people.

The biggest issue I think you'll face is wiring it into you house safely and getting what you want on the circuits. Honestly at that size, I would look at a transfer switch to tie into your mains.
 
The drawback to most PTO powered generators is that they are not automatically governed. You can set your tractor for certain RPM, however when load picks up on the generator and it bogs the tractor engine down the tractor will not automatically increase the throttle in order to keep the voltage and hertz output ftom the generator within the ideal range.

Pto generators work well in situations where the load demand is fairly consistent. An example is a farmer providing emergency power to a poultry house. They do not do well in situations where load demand varies significantly.

Fuel consumption is based upon both load as well as minimum fuel requirements for the engine/rpm. A 65hp tractor pulling a 25kw generator will probably consume 3-4 gph minimum.

I have something on the order of ten generators here on the farm, ranging from 2kw up to 250kw.

For the usage that you describe, 25kw is a good size, but here is something to consider. A 5,500 watt sized unit will pull a fridge, microwave oven, gas furnace, well pump and some lights, fans and TV and require around 2 gallons per hour of fuel. In contrast, my 400 hp generator burns over 10 gallons of fuel per hour at no load. That's over $500 per 24 hour day for off road diesel fuel based on minimal loading.

In summary, when it comes to generator fuel efficiency, smaller is better.
 
Get a 5-6kw dual fuel unit you can run on gasoline or propane. We only need the basics (water, intermittent freezer runs, fridge cycles, room fan, etc) to survive a short term outage. Long term we're screwed anyway. Short term emergency basics:Find a space heater for emergency heat or a wood stove and keep a fuel stash. Keep non perishable foods and a months rotation of drinking water at all times. Extra blankets in storage. Keep a camp stove/grill and a stash of fuel or get a gas range and keep extra propane. I skip two days per month on prescription meds and rotate them until I have a 30 day supply stored.
 
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Just remember that if you use a PTO driven generator, your tractor is out of commission during that time.
 
With in the last 10 days, I ordered a 16 KW Generac generator for the house. It will run on natural gas. I elected to not power the upstairs because nobody lives up there. I have a 5.5 KW gas driven generator but it will not power the AC. I am not worried about losing power in the winter time but it is the hurricanes and summer storms that cause the out our power outages. If a hurricane does head these way I am gone and I like the idea that the generator will come on when there is are power outages. Also, I do not want to worry about running out of gas for the generator.
 
Man, as always, excellent info from this forum. I knew there had to be a catch and now I know. I forgot to mention we have gas logs and a gas stove, powered by a 250 lb. propane tank, with two 100's as back ups. FIL is powering the well, so I really only need hot water heater, fridge and a couple lights. Great info y'all, I really appreciate it. Just weighing options and I see the purpose of PTO driven units now.

@georgel not to be a smart a$$, but tractors are one thing we aren't lacking. Two diesel, 65 hp and 75 hp with cab, plus 25 or so antique ones the FIL has collected, that run. I need to post some pics in another thread of the stuff on this property.
 
Man, as always, excellent info from this forum. I knew there had to be a catch and now I know. I forgot to mention we have gas logs and a gas stove, powered by a 250 lb. propane tank, with two 100's as back ups. FIL is powering the well, so I really only need hot water heater, fridge and a couple lights. Great info y'all, I really appreciate it. Just weighing options and I see the purpose of PTO driven units now.

@georgel not to be a smart a$$, but tractors are one thing we aren't lacking. Two diesel, 65 hp and 75 hp with cab, plus 25 or so antique ones the FIL has collected, that run. I need to post some pics in another thread of the stuff on this property.

If I were you I would shop for around 6kw to run on propane. That will cover the basics and should run for around 3.5 days solid on a 125 gallon propane tank. Plus propane does not go bad - unlike gasoline or diesel.

Get something similar for your FIL to run the well.

Move your critical circuits over to a subpanel and have it fed by a transfer switch. That makes operating on the genny much more foolproof. If you can swing the $, source an automatic transfer switch. If not, get a manual one.

1800 rpm generators are superior to 3,600 rpm models. They last longer and have a more stable output.
 
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Word of caution... My buddy has probably a 15 yr old generac generator in the 15kw size that runs off propane. That thing sucks propane faster than a topfuel dragster. It will suck a 250lb dry in less than 2 days. I can only hope the new ones are more efficient. Check into the propane usage under load. He still has it but bought two gas units and a bunch of gas cans and keeps the propane unit as a last resort.

He used to have a 25kw pto type generator tied to a 3cyl diesel mounted on a trailer (hard wired into the house with switch) that was homemade but an opossum got caught in the generator on a startup to test and we saw a pretty blue arc and that was it. A big bang and no output. He sold it for $1800 and the buyer put a good chunk into it to get it back working and we saw it all around after Matthew.
 
Good thread, I was wondering some of the same things. I always appreciate the willingness of folks on this forum to share their knowledge !
 
Word of caution... My buddy has probably a 15 yr old generac generator in the 15kw size that runs off propane. That thing sucks propane faster than a topfuel dragster. It will suck a 250lb dry in less than 2 days. I can only hope the new ones are more efficient. Check into the propane usage under load. He still has it but bought two gas units and a bunch of gas cans and keeps the propane unit as a last resort.

He used to have a 25kw pto type generator tied to a 3cyl diesel mounted on a trailer (hard wired into the house with switch) that was homemade but an opossum got caught in the generator on a startup to test and we saw a pretty blue arc and that was it. A big bang and no output. He sold it for $1800 and the buyer put a good chunk into it to get it back working and we saw it all around after Matthew.

A 20 kw generac consumes around 3 gal per hour today, so 72 gal per day. My 5.5kw will run 5 days on 100 gal.
 
I reckon I oughta throw in a word or so about large inverters , 3kw and up, to compliment a generator and transfer switch. You will possibly need to work outside with power tools doing repairs and whatnot. You may have to actually BE outside because of damage to your home electrical system. A large inverter mounted under the hood of a pickup or on a battery bank with solar or solar and wind combos can make life a lot less miserable when the gas stations have no power.
 
http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200657041_200657041

May look into this one, of course NT does not carry it in store.

FWIW we have a Champion 3200 watt inverter/generator we use for our travel trailer. We run it when we go to our friends farm if we need AC or if we're boondocking to recharge the battery and such. It has been a great purchase. I can run it at the house if need be to keep the fridges cold etc. I bought mine at Costco and they have a similar one to what you posted. The nice thing about buying it there is that Costco extends the warranty for 2 years.

BTW, this is a good thread. I've been wanting to get a bigger one and have it wired into the house.
 
Seems to me that a portable is the best way to go. You can't take a fixed one with you without a lot of trouble. A portable with a single heavy 220v plug goin to a transfer switch would be the ideal situation for home use. If your home becomes unusable for any reason, you could still have power for what you needed it for. You could move it with you should you have to vacate for some reason...so portables and inverters have my vote. We have a 3kw tied to a transfer switch for keeping the fridge and freezer goin, and two selected lighting circuits and 1 outlet circuit. However some of our past ice storms have proved that sometimes the power company doesn't care whether your generator has gas or not. That's where you have to think about portable solar units and wind powered devices.
 
After the last hurricane, when we got back home I ordered a 4 stroke 1900 watt generator from Amazon for mabe $175. That one will power enough stuff (CPAP, fans and phone chargers) to get us by. Also, the 5.5 kw is too big to take on short trips. I can not ever remembering when we lost power in the winter time.
 
An alternative to traditional generator transfer switch gear is the generator interlock device,
it prevents the generator from feeding the panel if the main breaker is in the ON position.
If you are handy enough you can make one or buy it ready to install,
panel manufacturers also have their own interlocks at reasonable prices.

http://www.geninterlock.com/product...llenger-150-200-amp-panels-transfer-switch-3/
Eaton interlock.jpg
 
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Family in our area had no power for almost 10 days after the last storm, they are on well and septic tank,
they have a whole house system now but when they were away it kicked on for a few days as they loose power often,
they screamed when they received their PSNC natural gas invoice. Now they disconnect it when they travel.
 
I have two solar panels to recharge SLA batteries and a 100W panel to power my AT&T fiber optic link so I can have
internet connection and a 8.5KW portable genset and have installed a kit that will let it run on gasoline, natural gas or propane, I have NG at home.

http://www.uscarburetion.com
 
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Here is a fairly inexpensive mechanicle interlock I installed. You have to kill the main breaker in order to energize the breaker that feeds the generator power to the panell. I cant run ac, water heater and such but it gets us by.
34800b78cc49d2c987c131a4370b81c5.jpg


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I have a small sub panel that feeds the circuits on the generator. It has two source breakers that are arranged in a back to back fashion such that only one of them can be on at a time. In other words, those circuits are either fed by the generator or the utility and there is no ability to backfeed the utility side, though the ground / neutral are still bonded for safety.
 
Buy once, cry once....30kw with transfer switch and either 100 gallon diesel tank, or 300 gallon propane/LPG setup. Power drops out, back on in <20 seconds....and 30kw will run the whole house....


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One of these days, I'll run across a 100kw from a tower site decommissioning and share it with my neighbor...or neighbors...[emoji13]


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An alternative to traditional generator transfer switch gear is the generator interlock device,
it prevents the generator from feeding the panel if the main breaker is in the ON position.
If you are handy enough you can make one or buy it ready to install,
panel manufacturers also have their own interlocks at reasonable prices.

http://www.geninterlock.com/product...llenger-150-200-amp-panels-transfer-switch-3/
View attachment 21903

This is the set up I have, I have a plug on the outside of the house I plug in my 30 amp. drop cord and cut off my heat pump, clothes dryer, and range. I can run my entire house, lights, water heater, freezers, microwave, refrigerators, we have a wood stove in the living room. I tried the drop cord route throughout the house, this is so much easier.
 
This is the set up I have, I have a plug on the outside of the house I plug in my 30 amp. drop cord and cut off my heat pump, clothes dryer, and range. I can run my entire house, lights, water heater, freezers, microwave, refrigerators, we have a wood stove in the living room. I tried the drop cord route throughout the house, this is so much easier.
Looks familiar.

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