Guns at Church

jimmyjames8

jimmyjames8

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'Times are different:' Nash County sheriff holds forum on guns in churches
http://wr.al/19wFs

Nice to know that NC "allows" guns in churches. Is there a state that does not? NC can't even enforce life safety bldg codes or occupancy limits in churches much less open or concealed carry.
 
Reading a book called "A Time To Kill" The myth of Christian Pacifism by Greg Hopkins. 978-0-9822151-5-9
Have not finished the book but it will be interesting.
 
We are supposed to go "shopping" for a new church 2nd qtr next year as the 1 my wife currently attends has gotten too liberal. Cant possibly have anything to do with being adjacent to a major university and having many profs in congregation and on governing council. New church must have armed security for me to attend and i will attend much more regularly if i am on the security detail.
 
Sometimes have to wonder how many people really read the book they carry with them to church and understand all parts of it. I have not finished reading it from start to finish but so many people that I feel just do not fully understand what they say they follow.
 
concepthomes1 said:
... This one fellow in our meeting asked the Captain, "I've always heard that dead men tell no tales so even if the bad guy is incapacitated, should we still shoot to kill?"

I about fainted after that. Quite literally, he's the ONE guy I'd NOT want to be carrying but we really don't have a recourse against him carrying unless we post the Church building.
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What did the Captain say? "No that is Murder."???? That is the guy that is going to get himself in trouble.
 
concepthomes1 said:
We held a half-day seminar at our facility with a Captain from the Matthews PD just to get their take and position on hostile church situations (this was before the TX shooting). This one fellow in our meeting asked the Captain, "I've always heard that dead men tell no tales so even if the bad guy is incapacitated, should we still shoot to kill?"
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To me this speaks of a guy whose understanding of defense and use of force comes from the TV. It's not necessarily that he would have a wrong or dangerous attitude, but may simply never been taught or exposed to the realities. I wouldn't automatically write him off until you know that he has had an opportunity to be educated and chosen to reject it.
 
concepthomes1 said:
So, I head up our Church security team. I *was* the only one who carried at the time so it wasn't a surprise when our Pastor talked to me about it.

The biggest hurdle I'm facing right now is: folks who may legally be allowed to CC a handgun but because of their odd personalities, I'd prefer they not. In the event of any sort of situation, those are not the kind of people I'd want to interfere with any sort of de-escalation attempts.

We held a half-day seminar at our facility with a Captain from the Matthews PD just to get their take and position on hostile church situations (this was before the TX shooting). This one fellow in our meeting asked the Captain, "I've always heard that dead men tell no tales so even if the bad guy is incapacitated, should we still shoot to kill?"

I about fainted after that. Quite literally, he's the ONE guy I'd NOT want to be carrying but we really don't have a recourse against him carrying unless we post the Church building.
Click to expand...

Dealing with people and personalities at church (or any volunteer organization) is a big issue. One of the many reasons I have never accepted a nomination for church council or my clubs board of directors. Just give me a project I have expertise in and I will get it done. I don't want to discuss or debate Ad nauseam and get 6 quotes or research for a year. Private security would be the best option in my opinion. In our current church, one armed rent a cop is all they need with him or her patrolling the facility for 4 hours a Sunday. It's not ideal but it's MUCH better than nothing which is what they have now. My old shooting buddy who was a career fire, EMS, LEO used to do it.
 
We have a meeting coming up with the local police at my church. The pastor billed it as kind of a how to deal with an active shooter thing. I was asked to attend. We dont have any type of security now, or even a plan really. I will be curious to see how this shakes out. My family is new in the church and there are a lot of old set in their ways types to deal with. For the record the pastor has never patted me down but assumes i have my sidearm every time he sees me. He also keeps his 38 model 10 close by whenever he is working in the church, so i know he is not anti carry. We shall see how everyone feels next tuesday.
 
I carry in church, I carry while preaching. As I have quoted the preacher in "The Patriot" before, its the job of the pastor to protect his sheep, and that means sometimes fighting off the wolves.

As far as the biblical/theological reasons to be armed, as has been said, the disciples were armed. Violence is not, nor should it ever be the first option. All other options should be exhausted before violence is considered. But it is not always up to me to decide the outcome of those other options or even which options will be available.
 
concepthomes1 said:
Folks who may legally be allowed to CC a handgun but because of their odd personalities~ Quite literally, he's the ONE guy I'd NOT want to be carrying.
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I see a few options;
- The church has an official security detail, the unstable folk will get their feelings hurt from rejection & the church is potentially liable if the SHTF.
- Leadership tells a couple responsible folk to manage it and has plausible deniability. Just make sure these folk all know who and where the good guys are if SHTF.
- Possibly add a paid off duty officer for a few hours.
 
concepthomes1 said:
We held a half-day seminar at our facility with a Captain from the Matthews PD just to get their take and position on hostile church situations (this was before the TX shooting). This one fellow in our meeting asked the Captain, "I've always heard that dead men tell no tales so even if the bad guy is incapacitated, should we still shoot to kill?"
Click to expand...
Where did this guy obtain his concealed permit, if he has one?
 
Pink_Vapor said:
I see a few options;
- The church has an official security detail, the unstable folk will get their feelings hurt from rejection & the church is potentially liable if the SHTF.
- Leadership tells a couple responsible folk to manage it and has plausible deniability. Just make sure these folk all know who and where the good guys are if SHTF.
- Possibly add a paid off duty officer for a few hours.
Click to expand...

I agree, to a point, however in your first scenario it is a lose/lose situation for the church. If they don't have a dedicated security detail, then they can possibly be held liable for failing to provide a secure environment. If they do have a security detail then they can be held liable for failing to be effective.

The issue really comes down to congregation size. Many large churches, we will say 200+ members may indeed have the funds to pay an off duty officer, or provide more of an organized security detail. But smaller churches, those in the 5-100 member sizes often are on a shoe string budget as it is. We also have to consider the "able bodiness" of the members. Many churches I have bee in are made up of a group elderly, and children, with just a handful of "viable" defenders. (before the hate, I know some old codgers that can lay down the hurt...I also know far more that may break a hip from laying down too fast).

So with many churches its a matter of money and man power.
 
jimmyjames8 said:
Nice to know that NC "allows" guns in churches. Is there a state that does not? NC can't even enforce life safety bldg codes or occupancy limits in churches much less open or concealed carry.
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North Carolina did not allow guns in church (or maybe it was only with specific permission) prior to 2013. Thank you, GRNC!
 
B00ger said:
I agree, to a point, however in your first scenario it is a lose/lose situation for the church. If they don't have a dedicated security detail, then they can possibly be held liable for failing to provide a secure environment. If they do have a security detail then they can be held liable for failing to be effective.
The issue really comes down to congregation size. Many large churches, we will say 200+ members may indeed have the funds to pay an off duty officer, or provide more of an organized security detail. But smaller churches, those in the 5-100 member sizes often are on a shoe string budget as it is. We also have to consider the "able bodiness" of the members. Many churches I have bee in are made up of a group elderly, and children, with just a handful of "viable" defenders. (before the hate, I know some old codgers that can lay down the hurt...I also know far more that may break a hip from laying down too fast).
So with many churches its a matter of money and man power.
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Agreed, damned lawyers...
Another concern, a high percentage of officers cannot hit the broad side of a barn. A friend (retired) NC Hwy Patrol officer and trainer stressed every year over qualification, he said, "I can't hit a barn if I'm in it, and it's not uncommon."
 
I've been thinking about this a lot lately. My church has a security policy, but they specifically omitted any language about carrying guns. It was explained to me that with the varying views of the different members (mostly conservative, but some vocal leftist Bernie and Hillary supporters), we'd never be able to come to an agreement about what to do. Also, they wanted plausible deniability, in case there was any incident.

Over the past few years, I have gotten lazy about only carrying when it is convenient or comfortable and didn't consistently carry at church. I am committed to not entering the building again without being armed and I have managed to do so every week for the past few months. In addition, I realize that I need to lose a lot of weight and spend more time at the range. I'm working on both of those (down 17 pounds, about 50 to go).

I've also been quietly trying to make a list of people that may be pro-gun and might be carrying. At some point, I'd like to assemble a team (unofficially, of course) where we can maybe get some professional training or coordination, should something be necessary. I noticed last week that a guy that sits right in front of me, who I had only spoken to in passing but never had a conversation, looked like he had an Alien Gear IWB holster (I could see the clips on his belt), so I intend to get to know him a little better. There are a half-dozen other guys that I know are supportive of concealed carry, but I'm not sure whether or not the are actually armed during services. We are fortunate in that most of our congregation is in the 30 to 50 age group, but very few have any military or law enforcement experience- including me. I have no idea how our pastor feel about this. I tend to believe that he wouldn't be a fan of this, but I haven't asked.

Any advice or suggestions would be appreciated.
 
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Jake said:
North Carolina did not allow guns in church (or maybe it was only with specific permission) prior to 2013. Thank you, GRNC!
Click to expand...

Trust me, municipalities and the state (of NC anyway) are scared to death of churches from the standpoint of enforcing codes and General Statutes (read laws). They will not do it unless forced into it screaming and kicking. That church up in Spindale that supposedly beat their own members is a prime example.
 
I don't go to church often. However when I did go religiously and carried the older left wing members would always point out who had a pocket knife and would always bring up guns after service.

My youth pastor frankly got tired of it on day and said "Given I'm in the Lord's house, not your house. If he had a problem with it...I'm sure it will be brought up at the gates when I die "
 
It seems that even the staunchest advocates of “shall not be infringed” has people who they think should not be allowed to carry.
 
concepthomes1 said:
So, I head up our Church security team. I *was* the only one who carried at the time so it wasn't a surprise when our Pastor talked to me about it.

The biggest hurdle I'm facing right now is: folks who may legally be allowed to CC a handgun but because of their odd personalities, I'd prefer they not. In the event of any sort of situation, those are not the kind of people I'd want to interfere with any sort of de-escalation attempts.

We held a half-day seminar at our facility with a Captain from the Matthews PD just to get their take and position on hostile church situations (this was before the TX shooting). This one fellow in our meeting asked the Captain, "I've always heard that dead men tell no tales so even if the bad guy is incapacitated, should we still shoot to kill?"

I about fainted after that. Quite literally, he's the ONE guy I'd NOT want to be carrying but we really don't have a recourse against him carrying unless we post the Church building.
Click to expand...
Ha....you weed those types out by requiring those who carry as church security to pass a qualification....written and shooting. Works everytime ;)

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk
 
Being an atheist, and not having attended a church service other than funerals or weddings in over 40 years, I have to ask a question with all due respect, and I really do respect everyones right to their beliefs....as long as you'll respect my right to think it's all BS.

I was under the impression that the Big Guy had you covered. Wassup with him allowing churches to get shot up??

Sounds like you guys need to hire "Jesse Cutler" as an associate pastor.

dominic-cooper-as-jesse-cutler-in-preacher.jpg
 
From the article....

State law allows guns in churches and also allows churches to decide if they want to prohibit firearms.

BS.

The state doesn't "allow" anything.

It is the RIGHT of church leaders / members to do what they see fit with regard to firearms in church. The state is irrelevant in this matter...they have no authority at all.
 
Couple of things:

No matter the size of your church you need to have a Safety Ministry (Security). It's not only to protect the congregation but also to protect the church from litigation. Gross negligence is when you don't have a plan. If you have a plan you're cleared of gross negligence even if the plan isn't followed to the tee.

Your Safety Ministry needs to be organized whether it be large or small. Your policies and procedures need to be documented and on record. Your team needs to know what to do when something happens.

The biggest thing to realize is that there are SO many other issues that a Safety Ministry would be able to assist with before running into an Active Shooter.

Questions to ask your church:

What's your plan for dealing with unruly people?

What's the plan for dealing with issues revolving around divorced parents and child custody issues?

What's your plan if someone passes out, falls. Has a medical emergency inside the church or in the parking lot?

What measures do you have in place to keep the kids safe?

When was the last time your church had a fire drill and who has what responsibilities during emergencies?

Are members of your team armed and if so what training do they have? Does the church insurance cover those members?

What screening process does your church have for any and all relresentives of the church....especially those who come in contact with kids?

I could go on and on but you get the point. I chair a Safety Ministry for an 8,500 member church in a large city. I have around 100 members divided between 4 teams and another 12 guys assigned to a special team which focuses on Pastoral Security as well as VIP guest of the church. Our team works in conjuction with the Secret Service when special guest come to visit. I've been heading the ministry for the past 4yrs, however the groundwork was laid well before me. I've learned quite a few things over the years and still learning more every day. Let me know if you have any questions I may be able to shed some light on.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk
 
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TripleO7 said:
Being an atheist, and not having attended a church service other than funerals or weddings in over 40 years, I have to ask a question with all due respect, and I really do respect everyones right to their beliefs....as long as you'll respect my right to think it's all BS.

I was under the impression that the Big Guy had you covered. Wassup with him allowing churches to get shot up??

Sounds like you guys need to hire "Jesse Cutler" as an associate pastor.

dominic-cooper-as-jesse-cutler-in-preacher.jpg
Click to expand...

God promises eternal salvation not safety.
 
TripleO7 said:
Being an atheist, and not having attended a church service other than funerals or weddings in over 40 years, I have to ask a question with all due respect, and I really do respect everyones right to their beliefs....as long as you'll respect my right to think it's all BS.

I was under the impression that the Big Guy had you covered.
Click to expand...

That is a distortion of the truth. The book does not teach us to sit on our respective asses and all will be well.

Wanna eat? Book teaches that you should work in order to do so. (II Thessalonians 3:10)

Have a family? Well, you are to provide for them...sustenance, shelter, safety and security. Failure to do so makes you worse than an infidel. (I Timothy 5:8)

God expects you to be a man, and being a man is a hell of a lot more than just being born with a penis and testicles.
 
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TripleO7 said:
Being an atheist, and not having attended a church service other than funerals or weddings in over 40 years, I have to ask a question with all due respect, and I really do respect everyones right to their beliefs....as long as you'll respect my right to think it's all BS.

I was under the impression that the Big Guy had you covered. Wassup with him allowing churches to get shot up??

Sounds like you guys need to hire "Jesse Cutler" as an associate pastor.

dominic-cooper-as-jesse-cutler-in-preacher.jpg
Click to expand...
Even an atheist knows the world is full of good and evil.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk
 
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