Handgun “Quality”

Now this discussion is getting some meat! I like where it’s going. It relates back to a point on P1 about everything being a compromise. That’s not a negative/insult, it’s just that everything is a trade off, including the micro 9’s platform, with 9mm seemingly a “minimally acceptable” cartridge. We all probably want 20 rounds of .45ACP with the ability to shoot MOA at 100 yards, but that’s not fitting in a pocket. So we compromise. It happens between platforms, then within platforms. Is a Taurus good enough, a Ruger, a Sig, a Glock, etc. At what point does reliability stop increasing and you’re paying for “something” else. Over thinking it? Absolutely, but it’s been an educational conversation with some good things to think about. Does that mean I’ll buy a Glock? Probably not. A Ruger and shoot the piss out of it? Maybe. A Sig or Springfield and worry less? Also maybe. If nothing else so good things to think about when we look at the next gun (cause we’re all always looking).

“Can I fight with this?” might be the simplest statement.
 
Mathieu18 said:
Now this discussion is getting some meat! I like where it’s going. It relates back to a point on P1 about everything being a compromise. That’s not a negative/insult, it’s just that everything is a trade off, including the micro 9’s platform, with 9mm seemingly a “minimally acceptable” cartridge. We all probably want 20 rounds of .45ACP with the ability to shoot MOA at 100 yards, but that’s not fitting in a pocket. So we compromise. It happens between platforms, then within platforms. Is a Taurus good enough, a Ruger, a Sig, a Glock, etc. At what point does reliability stop increasing and you’re paying for “something” else. Over thinking it? Absolutely, but it’s been an educational conversation with some good things to think about. Does that mean I’ll buy a Glock? Probably not. A Ruger and shoot the piss out of it? Maybe. A Sig or Springfield and worry less? Also maybe. If nothing else so good things to think about when we look at the next gun (cause we’re all always looking).

“Can I fight with this?” might be the simplest statement.
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And "Will I fight with this?" If the gun is not one you are willing to carry, then it won't be with you when you need it.
 
Dropping my crappy opinion before reading all these posts 🤠.

The market is saturated with great 9mm handguns and clones of great 9mm handguns. It's hard not to buy something decent nowadays.

Realistically what do you need a "quality handgun" to do?
-hold a reasonable amount of ammunition
-be reasonably accurate over self defense distances
-work reliably

So many handguns fit this bill now its crazy. Until the past year I would only carry my CZ P10cs, match grade barrels, comps, rmr, loaded up with +P spear gold dots, you get the picture.

Deciding to play around with a PSA dagger has completely changed my mind. They're accurate (easy B/C steel hits at 100 yards), hold a reasonable amount of ammo, and the dang things work.

As long as you can meet those 3 criteria, who cares. Truth is there's probably a lot of "quality" pistols that can't even meet these basic needs (Springfield prodigy or anything modern Kimber).
 
keepcalmandcarryon said:
Again a disingenuous argument. Stating that we live in an era that CAN make inexpensive reliable guns does not mean it happens.
we also live in the era of the LCP from an established manufacturer which is a POS. Even the most ardent LCP fanbois can say about it is that it is cheap and easy to carry. I have yet to see anyone say they but a significant number of rounds though it and it is as good as new. I admit I am using a very small sample size for my assessment and if there is any LCP owners who have put significant number of rounds (over 1k) I would genuinely be interested to know and perhaps expand my knowledge.
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Everyone I know that has bought an LCP hated it and sold it. I really don’t understand why people don’t accept that you get what you pay for with CERTAIN things. Guns are one of them. The 500-600 dollar price is the bare minimum IMO. Glock or above. If it’s for self defense, you don’t need a 2000 dollar gun. Will it shoot better than a Glock? Absolutely. And anyone who says a Glock shoots the same as a staccato, WC, CZ is a fool.
 
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CZfool68 said:
I have a Wilson. Cost me about $2500. It had a good handful of FTF and FTE in the first few hundred rounds. I was not a happy camper. So yes, price doesn’t equal perfection. It’s been a good girl since then, but you’d think for $2500 if would be perfect out of the box. Such is life.
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You got a bum bum and should have sent it back. That’s why you pay that price tag and they will fix it.
 
Mr. Bggs said:
Well said.

Like cars, you buy a reputable name bc it hopefully has a more proven track record. Does that mean there won't be bad apples? No, but the idea is the odds are better than if you buy a lesser known brand.

Do your research and make a choice. Then test that choice until you are satisfied. There are no certainties. All you can do is try to keep the odds in your favor and keep up with routine maintenance.
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There are also cases where an entire brand is condemed in the court of conventional wisdom because of some early growing pains with some models, so a brand name is not 100% indicictive of quality or at least reliability IMO. I trust what I know works from my own experience. True that doesn't always help with buying decisions and I've made some mistakes, but have also been pleasantly surprised.
 
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Flashpoint said:
There are also cases where an entire brand is condem Ed in the court of conventional wisdom because of some early growing pains with some models, so a brand name is not 100% indicictive of quality or at least reliability IMO. I trust what I know works from my own experience. True that doesn't always help with buying decisions and I've made some mistakes, but have also been pleasantly surprised.
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This is 100% true. Take the p320 that was discharging when it was dropped. Fix that, and it’s one of the most popular and reliable guns out there. Companies mess up, even the best ones. It’s how they go about fixing it (or not) that matters.
 
Flashpoint said:
There are also cases where an entire brand is condem Ed in the court of conventional wisdom because of some early growing pains with some models, so a brand name is not 100% indicictive of quality or at least reliability IMO. I trust what I know works from my own experience. True that doesn't always help with buying decisions and I've made some mistakes, but have also been pleasantly surprised.
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I agree with that. There's always that person that drives a car you think is, or heard is awful and they love it, have had no issues, and would buy it again.

With the internet you can find a negative review on any gun.

We all have our preferences and biases. There are no certainties. Playing the odds is what you're left with.

I used to shoot everyday and learned what i leaned from hands on experience. Nowadays i almost never get to shoot and learn from guys like Billy who still do. I appreciate reading their experiences and factor it in when making my decisions about what to buy/ carry. That's not to say what works for one will work for all.
 
Mr. Bggs said:
I agree with that. There's always that person that drives a car you think is, or heard is awful and they love it, have had no issues, and would buy it again.

With the internet you can find a negative review on any gun.

We all have our preferences and biases. There are no certainties. Playing the odds is what you're left with.

I used to shoot everyday and learned what i leaned from hands on experience. Nowadays i almost never get to shoot and learn from guys like Billy who still do. I appreciate reading their experiences and factor it in when making my decisions about what to buy/ carry. That's not to say what works for one will work for all.
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There are also the guntubers that will give a crap review of a great gun for clicks. One nimrod did this for the new staccato CS. Big armed tard who says his p365 shoots flatter. Meanwhile my toothpick arms have no problem with it. Disingenuous reviews everywhere. Or those done by people who are clueless.
 
barf said:
There are also the guntubers that will give a crap review of a great gun for clicks. One nimrod did this for the new staccato CS. Big armed tard who says his p365 shoots flatter. Meanwhile my toothpick arms have no problem with it. Disingenuous reviews everywhere. Or those done by people who are clueless.
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Absolutely!
 
barf said:
This is 100% true. Take the p320 that was discharging when it was dropped. Fix that, and it’s one of the most popular and reliable guns out there. Companies mess up, even the best ones. It’s how they go about fixing it (or not) that matters.
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Isn’t there a thread right now on 80+- service members discharging P320’s without pulling the trigger though?
 
American or Western European 9x19 or .45ACP in the $350-$800 range that large organizations utilize for general use after considerable testing.

American or Western European .32ACP, .380ACP, or .38 Special in the $350-$800 range that large organizations utilize for undercover use after considerable testing.

tl;dr G19 and a J-frame
 
Meh. Kinda need to strike a balance. I would never carry something nice like a STI/Staccato 2011 or a Wilson Combat. Not that they aren't reliable, I just wouldn't use the gun properly as a tool, too concerned about its value. Same thing with collectibles. A cheap 1911 is a fun range toy, but I don't know if I would trust my life with it.

If there is a justifiable shooting there is a chance the gun is gone for a LOOOOONG time, if not forever. So I wouldn't use grandpa's old heirloom as first choice.

Any handgun carried by a sizeable (ie not 3 officers in a small town) should be sufficient. Glock, Smith & Wesson, Sig, etc. I like police trade-ins as many are still very serviceable but not at a price point where I mind adding another few scratches.

Lights are helpful tools, and red dots can do amazing things to help accuracy. Its all about what you're comfortable with. I will never seriously use a bullpup because I have so much time on normal rifles. Same with handguns. I would not carry a 1911. They're neat and great shooters, but all my training has been on DA/SA or striker fired.

I have a Bersa in 380. Its my only 'Cheap' gun that I carry. I tested out the hollow points it uses and they are reliable. Its all steel and honestly, hasn't given me any issues. Its a small sample size (Fiocchi or Sig practice ammo, Hornady or Fiocchi carry ammo) but it makes me comfortable. Otherwise I prefer S&W, but thats a personal preference.

A sleeper I would look for is the Beretta APX. I don't see them as much but man, Beretta reliability and the compacts were going for less than $400 new. Its a great time to be in the market for a compact handgun!
 
I have been thinking about getting an SCCY .... just to have a small backup. They are fairly inexpensive and on this site or mabye the other one, someone did a review or test of some sort. They took it new from the box, uncleaned and shot it until failure. IIRC it was 1000+ rounds until a malfunction. That's good enough for me, because I wont shoot it very often.
 
JRV said:
See, it’s because your life is only worth $2,500 to you. If you would have purchased a Cabot or an Heirloom Precision, that would have never happened!
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barf said:
You got a bum bum and should have sent it back. That’s why you pay that price tag and they will fix it.
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A little lube and a few hundred more rounds and it is fixed. Quicker than shipping.
 
Mathieu18 said:
Now this discussion is getting some meat! I like where it’s going. It relates back to a point on P1 about everything being a compromise. That’s not a negative/insult, it’s just that everything is a trade off, including the micro 9’s platform, with 9mm seemingly a “minimally acceptable” cartridge. We all probably want 20 rounds of .45ACP with the ability to shoot MOA at 100 yards, but that’s not fitting in a pocket. So we compromise. It happens between platforms, then within platforms. Is a Taurus good enough, a Ruger, a Sig, a Glock, etc. At what point does reliability stop increasing and you’re paying for “something” else. Over thinking it? Absolutely, but it’s been an educational conversation with some good things to think about. Does that mean I’ll buy a Glock? Probably not. A Ruger and shoot the piss out of it? Maybe. A Sig or Springfield and worry less? Also maybe. If nothing else so good things to think about when we look at the next gun (cause we’re all always looking).

“Can I fight with this?” might be the simplest statement.
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You seem really stuck on the idea that everything comes with compromises or trade offs. There is a level where that is simply not the case. These are not my guns but are examples of no compromise level guns. There are people who carry guns of this level. There are production level guns and then there are guns aspiring to perfection. Only the owner/buyer/seller can determine if the quality is worth the cost.

Jason Burton

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Stan Chen

©20120224_StanChen_032M+shadow.jpg
 
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BowWow said:
I have been thinking about getting an SCCY .... just to have a small backup. They are fairly inexpensive and on this site or mabye the other one, someone did a review or test of some sort. They took it new from the box, uncleaned and shot it until failure. IIRC it was 1000+ rounds until a malfunction. That's good enough for me, because I wont shoot it very often.
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We did that here with 2...one went 1,100 rounds and a bystander bought it....the other one went 900 and met the same fate....
 
I haven't read every response but will reply anyway. I never look at cost up front when determining my ultimate goal. I set the bar to what I want to do and then determine what it will take to accomplish it. Sometimes I'm sure I pay way more than what someone else would pay to accomplish that goal, sometimes I probably pay less.

For a carry gun, I picked Glocks early on. First handgun I purchased was a Glock 17 when I turned 21 and that set the tone for me. I pretty much carry a Glock every day now. I have plenty of other guns I could carry but I have faith from experience in the Glocks I own. If I had to put a price on a reliable gun to carry, I would say look at current prices for Glock 19's or 43's and that is the bar.
 
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Mathieu18 said:
Isn’t there a thread right now on 80+- service members discharging P320’s without pulling the trigger though?
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You mean the article that is talking about the defect from years ago that they offered free fixes for? It’s an anti gun article. Did you even read it?
 
Mr. Bggs said:
Nowadays i almost never get to shoot and learn from guys like Billy who still do. I appreciate reading their experiences and factor it in when making my decisions about what to buy/ carry.
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You might take the experiences of @BatteryOaksBilly with a tiny grain of salt. He bought the P365 on my recommendation. 😂
 
barf said:
You mean the article that is talking about the defect from years ago that they offered free fixes for? It’s an anti gun article. Did you even read it?
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Nope
 
My tests are: does it fit well and feel comfortable in my hand: can I shoot it well; have I shot it 1000 rounds without any issues and will I carry it everywhere that it's legal?

I have 3 that I rotate depending on clothes that have passed all those tests, and I'm completely happy with my choices. However, I'm always looking for better ones.
 
BigWaylon said:
I would say the one big exception to the $500 is buying PD trade-ins. It’s not hard to knock $100-$200 off that amount if you’re not after new.
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As an example from an email I just received…

I’d wager to bet a large majority of this forum would trust their life to this ~$300 pistol:

4F95C2CE-72F3-469B-B89E-81AE601D15DC.jpeg


They also have Gen 3 G22 for $290, Gen 3 G17 for $320 and Gen 4 G17 for $340…but I’m guessing not many conceal carry either of those. I would, as I carry a G21 a couple days a week. 😎
 
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Fred said:
S&W rebates have put brand new M&P 2.0C 4 inch barrel versions down to 300$. I think I've seen optics ready for 325$. Hard to beat that capability for that price.
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I just picked up a 1st gen M&P9 with night sights for $300 from palmetto, nice shooter and it must have been unissued because the thing looked brand new. I lucked out!
 
Speaking of quality, brands, and prices.

I went to fgg&g yesterday and while there i held that new S&W m&p competitor. That slide had so much wobble i wasnt even sure the frame had front rails for the slide at all. It was shockingly loose. Maybe it was just on the display gun but wow.

That said they are $949 everywhere you look and fuquay had it for $849.
 
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wvsig said:
Absolutely. There are many who do not. At one time I believe Sig do not either but those days are gone.
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Much of Sig's reputation was built on the Classic P-series pistols, which were designed around dramatic cost-cutting measures like their folded-steel slides. Later, Sig switched to milled slides, not to improve quality (although it did) but because then-new CNC milling machines could be used for both frames and slides and resulted in lower costs than replacing the tooling for folded-steel slides and continuing to manually machine frames.
 
Well... compare ole vs. new some of the older handguns are made better, better fit, better finish
can use one example, (disclaimer: not beating on Kimber) will take an older Kimber over a newer
one, fit, finish, function. Now I've shot a few out of a rest (Ransom) New ones are hit n miss, older
ones for the most part shoot, feed and are pretty accurate. Now this is just an observation. Same
can be said when you compare say a Colt NM, Colt Gold Cup (70's series) to the new ones.

Just my "buck fifty worth" (adjusted due to inflation)

-Snoopz
 
Mathieu18 said:
To be upfront, this isn’t meant to be an inflammatory post, but maybe I should save it for Friday…

At what point are you paying for “quality” that matters in a gun. I think about this most as an EDC gun which is why this is in handguns, as that’s where people seems most sensitive to a gun that’ll save your life.

@BatteryOaksBilly question keeps rattling around my brain, “What’s your life worth?” Fair question (especially since I wanted a cheap carry gun) but IMO there’s a point where you’re not paying for reliability or accuracy that might save your life, but instead finish quality or bells and whistles that’s more vanity. Not a bad thing either, but how to draw a line?

So how do you pick?
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Ok, so start with this.....don't buy anything from Taurus. Unless you're a gambler, then roll those dice lol.
 
RegularJoeGunGuy said:
Ok, so start with this.....don't buy anything from Taurus. Unless you're a gambler, then roll those dice lol.
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I genuinely don’t think that’s fair for the current crop of guns Taurus is putting out, but I did go with a Ruger, cause, ‘Murica.
 
Mathieu18 said:
I genuinely don’t think that’s fair for the current crop of guns Taurus is putting out, but I did go with a Ruger, cause, ‘Murica.
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Hmm, well, perhaps you've had good Taurus experiences. Such is the way with the dice role lol. I'll share a few of personal experiences with T-junk..... When the 856 was introduced, I got excited about the prospect of a new 6-shot snubby only slightly larger than a J-frame. So I gave it a year or so to see if there would be many bad reviews. Then I bought one, the steel frame version. Trigger broke right out of box on the second pull. Sent it to Taurus. They fixed it (after 3 months). Got it back shot it a bit and then sold it. Decided to buy one of the ultralite 856's. The action froze after two trigger pulls. Sent it back...took another 3 months. They couldn't repair it so they sent a new one to a local FFL. Had to pay a transfer fee (new serial number). So, I didn't bother shooting it. Traded it away. Just didn't trust it.

Prior to the two 856's I owned a model 85 that the hammer literally fell out of the frame. Over the last 10 years I've tried a couple of their semi autos, a .45 and two 9mms. The 45 still functions...gave that to a family member. Both 9mms had internal parts break causing catastrophic failures.

The GX4's look promising, but generally speaking I don't trust Taurus. Damn shame too , because I really wanted to like the 856s.
 
RegularJoeGunGuy said:
Hmm, well, perhaps you've had good Taurus experiences. Such is the way with the dice role lol. I'll share a few of personal experiences with T-junk..... When the 856 was introduced, I got excited about the prospect of a new 6-shot snubby only slightly larger than a J-frame. So I gave it a year or so to see if there would be many bad reviews. Then I bought one, the steel frame version. Trigger broke right out of box on the second pull. Sent it to Taurus. They fixed it (after 3 months). Got it back shot it a bit and then sold it. Decided to buy one of the ultralite 856's. The action froze after two trigger pulls. Sent it back...took another 3 months. They couldn't repair it so they sent a new one to a local FFL. Had to pay a transfer fee (new serial number). So, I didn't bother shooting it. Traded it away. Just didn't trust it.

Prior to the two 856's I owned a model 85 that the hammer literally fell out of the frame. Over the last 10 years I've tried a couple of their semi autos, a .45 and two 9mms. The 45 still functions...gave that to a family member. Both 9mms had internal parts break causing catastrophic failures.

The GX4's look promising, but generally speaking I don't trust Taurus. Damn shame too , because I really wanted to like the 856s.
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Please don’t ever touch any of my guns. Your batting average is terrifying.
 
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