Hostile or Friendly? Target Discrimination - CSAT with Paul Howe
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Taking the CC class on the past Saturday, the instructor stated that no permit holder should rush to the sound of the gun; the permit holder is only responsible for the bubble that they occupy. He stated that as a responding LEO he would have a very hard time separating a legal CC holder with a firearm in hand and a bad guy also with a firearm in hand especially during a mass shooting incident.
Simple. Announce you're a cop and yell drop the weapon.
Tim
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I was never required to take any class when I got my CCW in 1976. I was required to do several things and then qualify with local LE on the local LE range along with all of them.
This to say that I have since been to several CCW classes. Off hand I'd say about 10. I went because I was invited or because I was curious.
At 3 of these classes I was impressed with all of the good instruction the folks received...after they all shut up and listened. The other 7 were out of control. People interrupting with "what ifs" when if they would have kept quiet they would have found out the answer by end of class.
Not only alot of questions BUT alot of folks that either didn't listen or weren't capable of understanding the course and left with alot of Misinfo.
When I hear people start a statement with...Our CCW Instructor said.....I generally tune out.
This to say that I have since been to several CCW classes. Off hand I'd say about 10. I went because I was invited or because I was curious.
At 3 of these classes I was impressed with all of the good instruction the folks received...after they all shut up and listened. The other 7 were out of control. People interrupting with "what ifs" when if they would have kept quiet they would have found out the answer by end of class.
Not only alot of questions BUT alot of folks that either didn't listen or weren't capable of understanding the course and left with alot of Misinfo.
When I hear people start a statement with...Our CCW Instructor said.....I generally tune out.
Jeppo
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Yeah but...
I've looked at the CCW class as getting a permission slip from big brother. Self defense classes and practice, practice, practice , is where the real learning happens
I'm a CCH instructor, and I am QUICK to tell folks that this is a small introduction to the world of carrying a handgun. Basically a 8 hour lesson on how not to shoot yourself, how to load unload a pistol with a strong emphasis on the legality of carrying a firearm.
He aint lyin.
This is something you need to keep tucked away for future reference.
Imagine yourself in that SD scenario. You just had to fire your pistol. Adrenaline is spiking, ears are ringing and you're dealing with the aftermath but your gun is still out.
What are you gonna do when you hear a muffled eeeeeeeROP-uh-KUNeeeeee
you're gonna turn toward the guy shouting at you like any sane perso*BANG*
maybe we need a change in training doctrine. forget that 'no one needs to reholster quickly' thing. Train to shoot, assess, reholster and run like a mofo. If another threat pops out you have to reassess and re-draw to engage, but you'll also not get shot by the cops who show up later. what's more dangerous, the potential of a 2nd shooter you run into, or the LEs coming in with no idea what's going on?
I will tell you if youāre on your feet when the patrol officers arrive; youāre a threat. You will be treated roughly regardless of your legal status. Itās not time for niceties.
i will tell you what Iāve told a lot of training classes of plainclothes LEO. If the shooting has ended, set your pistol on the ground and lay down with your hands on the back of your head. No need to reholster, that weapon just became part of the crime scene. Itāll be taken anyway. Plainclothes LE are in the same tactical situation as everyone else at that point.
i will tell you what Iāve told a lot of training classes of plainclothes LEO. If the shooting has ended, set your pistol on the ground and lay down with your hands on the back of your head. No need to reholster, that weapon just became part of the crime scene. Itāll be taken anyway. Plainclothes LE are in the same tactical situation as everyone else at that point.
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Pass.
If I had to draw and fire, then I'm legitimately in fear for my life and my response is not to disarm and lay down. I'm going to run like hell and call 911 when I'm out of range. They can come get me later but I'm hoping the jury understands legit fear and running away vs. "welp, just got in a gun fight so I thought I would lay down for 5 minutes right here in the crime scene so officer friendly doesn't shoot me".
Iām good with your answer as long as you donāt meet responding officers coming in the door with a gun in your hand. Thatās when stuff gets stupid for all involved.
I just rewatched the video again (3rd time) and thought about his ācleaning ā technique. Iām really starting to like the approach to systematically discriminate in a rapid manner using the 3 zones.
DrScaryGuy
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proceed to a safe area
it seems like it's starting to be taught that way. if you have a SD shooting in the middle of a mostly peaceful protest, you should not stand there like a doof and wait for the police to come find you. 2 schools of thought - Sometimes "stfu" is great advice, other times you know that the facts are clear, so there's no use in denying them ... start saying the minimal amount to make your case faster than anybody else can.
my version has more flair.
Chuckman
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But here's the thing: it's not a change of doctrine, it's merely getting back to the doctrine of what concealed carry was supposed to be anyway: to protect YOU (and yours) and to allow YOU to get time to move off the X.
This notion that a CCW carrier is supposed to be the Lone Ranger to take out the booger-eaters has been a media-driven evolution as armchair quarterbacks look at the video from that guy in Texas and say "yeah, I'll do that."
by change of doctrine, maybe I should have been specific to training. I've got a dozen or more certs from training classes (when they still gave those out) and have never been in a drill/force-on-force scenario/etc where it included 'look around, reholster, move'... and then maybe reengage somewhere else. There have been the tricky targets where the gun has been replaced with a water bottle / cell phone / etc but those are always in the middle of a shoot house or somewhere else you're moving with weapons out. weapons never go away until you're 'out of the house'.
I could see a setup where you have 1 target showing, and several down the line you can't see from where you are. draw/shoot on the timer (or whatever), look around, holster, move. pass by the 2nd target, assess and either draw/shoot or just keep moving. pass by the 3rd target, assess... etc etc. practice the 'fight might be over' then move then a new fight starts maybe? redo the assess thing the guy talks about in the video but not over the barrel of your gun. you would be behind the curve all the time, but you would also not look like a target to the wrong people all the time?
Chuckman
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Yup, totally get that, totally agree.
The training, like most certification/licensure programs, looks to meet the minimal objectives as specified by the governing authority. As such, there's a lot of optional follow-on (like you describe), but no mandate aside from renewing as proscribed by the governing authority. That's a problem (and not just with CC classes, either). Almost 100% of people who take the CC classes will never have to use it, and a very large percentage will never actually shoot the gun outside of what the state requires to cert/recert.
The CCW classes are and will likely always be minimal. If they aren't, they'll be used by the crown to deny rights by design.
I'm saying for the trainers out there who are doing the 'next level' of civilian training where the objectives are set by the trainer. Once you've got people competent to draw and not shoot themselves, add some practical tactics in there. No shoot house Rambo action until you can survive a 1 or 2 target setup followed by the run-in with the 1st armed responders who aren't you.
Chuckman
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All governing authorities set minimal requirements; any instructor can go above and beyond as long as they hit the mandated objectives. For time and money, so far as I know, CC instructors do the bare minimum. The standard is the standard, whether they choose to go above is up to them. The state does not do that to deny rights, they merely state a minimal standard. Same as driver's ed, etc.
I have had the classes which you describe, as someone who wishes to remain proficient.
Sound advice that I do my best to follow, in my mind āno one will ever get the drop on meā and āIām highly skilled in determining an actual threatā, but Iām also honest enough with myself to know Iām full of crap and am WAY over confident in my ability and that I need to train as much as possible lol!
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