I need advice / info on combat point shooting!

specops56

specops56

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First, before everybody starts shouting “front sight”, let me explain. The reason is quite simple. I can no longer focus a front sight. Any front sight. As a result of age, diabetes and scarring from multiple eye surgeries, front sights are nothing but a blurry blob. Shooting glasses are not an option as I will probably not be wearing them when attacked. Unless the attack occurs at the range. So, I’ve resigned myself to learning point shooting. I’m only concerned with handgun shooting at self defense distances, no more than 12-15 yards.
I am generally familiar with all the major systems out there:
Fairbairn / Sykes
Applegate
Quick Kill
Israeli
Stressfire
FistFire
If anyone has any training/experience in any of these methods I’d like to hear your insights. I need help deciding which would be the best and most effective method for me. I doubt I can find an actual school teaching these anywhere within reasonable distance from me so I will have to use books and videos to teach myself. I’m very serious about this. Thanks in advance!

Terry
 
specops56 said:
...I can no longer focus a front sight. Any front sight. As a result of age, diabetes and scarring from multiple eye surgeries, front sights are nothing but a blurry blob. Shooting glasses are not an option as I will probably not be wearing them when attacked.
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Thanks for raising this topic. I've solved my range shooting with glasses, but you've caused me to reconsider self defense effectiveness, when I'm unlikely to have the glasses. Something I need to work on. Jordan book ordered - I look forward to more replies.
 
If you can see your slide you can still use that as a giant blurry aiming device. With enough practice you can become reasonably effective. I used this method back when I shot PPC matches and also for the 2 yd shots on my LEO qualifications.
 
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10+ years ago, in a previous 11B life.....

In a MOUT/CQB environment, we were always taught to index index index and almost always ignore iron sights (unless you were fortunate enough to have an Aimpoint, not prolific back then). On the M4 this equates to wrapping your thumb and pinkie around the hand guard while holding your pointer/middle finger parallel to the bore. Point those fingers at center mass and open the lead faucet. Worked well indoors and well enough at intermediate alley distances to get them rocking back on their heels.

If you found yourself is a really shit situation and had to resort to a sidearm, the the same concept applies but you are just using your thumbs. Of course a pistol is only good for fighting your way to a rifle.

All of that being said, I’m sure more effective techniques have been developed. Just another tool in your toolbox.
 
Don’t most self defense shootings happen within 6 feet? 15 yards seems like a very long defensive shot.
 
90 percent of defensive shooting are less than 15 feet. Point shooting depends on your grip for your natural point of aim. You need to find your point of impact shooting with your defensive firearm. A Glock points differently than a 1911, a Ruger, a S&W, whatever your poison, or a revolver. Constant practice is required as point shooting is an especially rapid diminishing skill. I got my point shooting down to a 3 inch group at 7 yards with a Glock 23 in my prime training years. Now it is about 6 to 8 inch group shooting once or twice a month.
 
ronn47 said:
Get this book by Bill Jordan:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0936279095/ref=dbs_a_def_rwt_bibl_vppi_i0
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I read that one years ago. I'll probably order it and read it again. I've also read Cirillo's books. I'm currently reading this one:

TSD7Bp5.jpg


I also have Ayoob's Stressfire book and have ordered his Stressfire DVD. I will most like take something from all of them and meld it into what works best for me.

Terry
 
JedPool said:
If you can see your slide you can still use that as a giant blurry aiming device. With enough practice you can become reasonably effective. I used this method back when I shot PPC matches and also for the 2 yd shots on my LEO qualifications.
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That's pretty much what I've been doing. I don't shoot small groups but at 10 yards I'm still minute of bad guy.

Terry
 
Johnboy said:
90 percent of defensive shooting are less than 15 feet. Point shooting depends on your grip for your natural point of aim. You need to find your point of impact shooting with your defensive firearm. A Glock points differently than a 1911, a Ruger, a S&W, whatever your poison, or a revolver. Constant practice is required as point shooting is an especially rapid diminishing skill. I got my point shooting down to a 3 inch group at 7 yards with a Glock 23 in my prime training years. Now it is about 6 to 8 inch group shooting once or twice a month.
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True. Most of my SD practice is done at 7-10 yards. But then there is that 10%. I think 15 yards is a reasonable distance one might expect to engage a shooter in the mall, restaurant, or parking lot.

Terry
 
Amp Mangum said:
OP try a red dot, a lot of folks that have trouble focusing on iron sights find out that a red dot works for them.
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I'd rather not trust my life to something that requires batteries. Same reason I don't go the laser route.

Terry
 
Yong Lee has some interesting thoughts and views on target focus shooting.
Dig a bit on YouTube and check him out. Grandmaster and very experienced.
 
specops56 said:
I'd rather not trust my life to something that requires batteries. Same reason I don't go the laser route.
Terry
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In addition to the training, how about using a red dot and grip activated laser? Both reliable and failing at the same time extremely low.
 
specops56 said:
I read that one years ago. I'll probably order it and read it again. I've also read Cirillo's books. I'm currently reading this one:

TSD7Bp5.jpg


I also have Ayoob's Stressfire book and have ordered his Stressfire DVD. I will most like take something from all of them and meld it into what works best for me.

Terry
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Hackathorn tells the story of talking to an Israeli handgun "trainer". The man was questioning Ken's technique...Hachathorn..How many people were shot last year with handguns in Israel?? Israeli..the number [in the teens]. Ken..MFr we shot that many last Week End in Chicago, shut up and learn.
 
specops56 said:
That's pretty much what I've been doing. I don't shoot small groups but at 10 yards I'm still minute of bad guy.

Terry
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What Jedpool said. The "frame reference method" is an oldie but still works. I teach it as a subconscious training method for entirely reactive shooting at really SD ranges. It's fast and effective. I believe in training your subconscious to make the shot in an SD situation. Take the sights off of the top of the weapon and learn to align it by recognizing the angle of the slide to the target. You'll be really surprised at how little you really need the sights for 10-15 and under.

Also, increase your one-handed presentation dry-fire and practice; for purely civ SD at mugging/robbing distance, I'm not a big believer in counting on getting both hands on the weapon.
 
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Yup, tape over the front sight and follow xtp308.
 
BatteryOaksBilly said:
Hackathorn tells the story of talking to an Israeli handgun "trainer". The man was questioning Ken's technique...Hachathorn..How many people were shot last year with handguns in Israel?? Israeli..the number [in the teens]. Ken..MFr we shot that many last Week End in Chicago, shut up and learn.
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Well, it's the method they teach the IDF as well as their tier one operators and Mossad so I would bet those guys have shot more than 11 with handguns. The Israelis are well known for not using anything that doesn't work. They can't afford to. I wasn't aware that Hackathorn was shooting bad guys in Chicago now. I also wasn't aware that he teaches point shooting. Every book of his and video I've seen he teaches front sight focus. If you have a link to his point shooting technique I'd appreciate seeing it.

Terry
 
Dean Brevit teaches target focus, and says he teaches it to SBI and other combat units. By focusing on the target, you can align the blur of the sights in the foreground. It's how you shoot shotguns at clays and birds, by focusing on the target and ignoring the sights. Obviously with a rifle you look at the sights.
 
specops56 said:
If you have a link to his point shooting technique I'd appreciate seeing it.
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The link you request is ME. I have spent hundreds of hours with Ken. Here on the range and with Michael. Four of us had him here for 4 days. He tells great stories. We love him coming and sharing all the old stories from the Cooper days. Everything isn't a computer Link. My links are more personal than that. One on one. If you are just trying to be argumentative I'll try to help you out with that too. Hackathorn shooting bad guys in Chicago....really!? He was talking about how many were shot. Never thought I'd have to explain this but maybe that clears it up for you.
 
BatteryOaksBilly said:
The link you request is ME. I have spent hundreds of hours with Ken. Here on the range and with Michael. Four of us had him here for 4 days. He tells great stories. We love him coming and sharing all the old stories from the Cooper days. Everything isn't a computer Link. My links are more personal than that. One on one. If you are just trying to be argumentative I'll try to help you out with that too. Hackathorn shooting bad guys in Chicago....really!? He was talking about how many were shot. Never thought I'd have to explain this but maybe that clears it up for you.
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Nope, not trying to be argumentative. I've read every book & magazine article and watched every video of his that I could find over the years. I've never seen him teach point shooting in any of them. The way you quoted him makes it sound as if he was dismissing both point shooting and the IDF's experience out of hand. The fact that Israel still exists after 70 years of everyone trying to exterminate them means they must be doing something right. Doesn't sound like Hackathorn to belittle their training but then I've never met the man. You quote him as saying "we shot that many last Week End in Chicago" thus my comment. I meant that part to be tongue in cheek as I assumed Hackathorn did. If I offended you then I apologize. It was unintentional.

Terry
 
You need to try a red dot. The whole battery thing you mentioned is a bit archaic. Good quality red dot site batteries last years. At the very least, before you flippantly dismiss it, try it. Change them every year if you like. If the site doesn't work you can always point shoot right...So it is only a bonus for you.

Point shooting is good for when you are real close. You can read all the books you want, but it comes down to practice. Honestly if your eyesight is really poor you shouldn't carry. You may be breaking this rule - "Never point your gun at anything you are not willing to destroy." You need to be able to identify the target. You also may be failing in "Know your target and what is beyond it."

You don't need a system to follow basic fundamentals, align your body to the target, point with a finger at the target. You are going to get close. There is no magic trick or sentence someone can say that will make you a precision point shooter. You have to practice.

Now assuming you can see the target well..
We train all the time with sites taped up. If you are a really good shooter you can get hits on steel at 10-15 yards. This is at the beep, draw and fire. I am a good point shooter. Ryan at Apex Defense Group told me one time i point shoot better than most people shoot. It comes from just shooting A LOT and looking at my sites. After a certain point your body "knows" what to do. But again this is good for pretty close up. You won't be able to take that precision shot at all point shooting. You cannot dictate how the scenario will go down. Limiting yourself to ONLY point shooting is dumb and possibly dangerous. By the way, Israelis do use their sites. Don't get confused, everything is situational. This is not the cowboy era. You are responsible for all your bullets.

V
 
Variable said:
You don't need a system to follow basic fundamentals, align your body to the target, point with a finger at the target. You are going to get close. There is no magic trick or sentence someone can say that will make you a precision point shooter. You have to practice.
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Oh my Goodness....This^^^^^^^^ In bright blinking NEON!!!!!
 
Variable said:
You need to try a red dot. The whole battery thing you mentioned is a bit archaic. Good quality red dot site batteries last years. At the very least, before you flippantly dismiss it, try it. Change them every year if you like. If the site doesn't work you can always point shoot right...So it is only a bonus for you.

Point shooting is good for when you are real close. You can read all the books you want, but it comes down to practice. Honestly if your eyesight is really poor you shouldn't carry. You may be breaking this rule - "Never point your gun at anything you are not willing to destroy." You need to be able to identify the target. You also may be failing in "Know your target and what is beyond it."

You don't need a system to follow basic fundamentals, align your body to the target, point with a finger at the target. You are going to get close. There is no magic trick or sentence someone can say that will make you a precision point shooter. You have to practice.

Now assuming you can see the target well..
We train all the time with sites taped up. If you are a really good shooter you can get hits on steel at 10-15 yards. This is at the beep, draw and fire. I am a good point shooter. Ryan at Apex Defense Group told me one time i point shoot better than most people shoot. It comes from just shooting A LOT and looking at my sites. After a certain point your body "knows" what to do. But again this is good for pretty close up. You won't be able to take that precision shot at all point shooting. You cannot dictate how the scenario will go down. Limiting yourself to ONLY point shooting is dumb and possibly dangerous. By the way, Israelis do use their sites. Don't get confused, everything is situational. This is not the cowboy era. You are responsible for all your bullets.

V
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I said I couldn't focus a front sight, I never said I was blind. I know who and what I'm looking at just fine. I do not need prescription glasses to get my drivers license. The glasses you usually see me wearing in my videos are generic reading glasses. Small things at arm's distance is what I can't focus. I've used red dots on rifles and have no problem with them for the range. Batteries are not my only reason for not putting them on my carry guns. Like most, I have more than one CC handgun to fit the situation and clothing. Even if I wanted to, I couldn't afford the cost of equipping them all with quality micro red dots.
As for the books and videos, I plan to to take from them the techniques that seem to work and adapt them to me. Lots of practice is part of the plan. As much live fire range time as I can get as well as my 1911 & Glock BB pistol clones here at home.
It's because I am responsible for all my bullets that I'm trying to find the best, most proven techniques possible.

Terry
 
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