I was gonna reload my firsts this afternoon...but...

wolfpack65

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I have a question or 3.

I have:
Lyman 50th Edition Reloading Handbook
Hodgdon 2017 Annual Manual Reloading
and the one that came with my reloading equipment - Modern Reloading 2nd Edition by Richard Lee.

All have different starting grains & max grains, different OAL/Col, FMJ FP, LRN, Jacketed Bullet, TMJ,etc

I have X-Treme 45 230gr RN bullets.
I have X-Treme 9mm 124gr RN as well, but for now...I just want to do 45.

For Titegroup, 230gr bullet
Hodgen 2017 has 4.0-4.8gr and 1.200" (230gr LRN)
Lyman 50th doesn't list Titegroup
2n Edition has 4.4-4.8gr and 1.200" (230gr Jacketed)

For 231, 230gr bullet
If I wanted to use 231, then there is a big discrepancy between Hodgen 2017 and the Lyman 50th
Lyman: 5.2gr-5.8gr and has an OAL of 1.275"
Hodgdon: 4.3gr-5.3gr, has Col of 1.200"
2nd Edition: has nothing for 231

I have CFE Pistol, Titegroup, 231, 700x, and Trailboss.

Are OAL and Col the same?

I was going to start with Titegroup.

There's too much variation in starting grains between different sources.
The engineer in my is having a hard time with this variance.

So, my goal of maybe reloading 10 rounds at the minimum, 10 at a mid-point, and 10 at almost max isn't going to happen.
It's like I need to just pick one reference manual and go with it, but I've no idea which one...

Advice, suggestions?
 
Good questions all.

In general, it's good to have a longer cartridge for more accuracy (in theory) ... therefore the diff on OAL (COL). Pressures are different because the case volume will be different, therefore the minor diff in charge weight.

There's a minor diff in lead bullet charge (LRB) and plated , so you'll see some diff there.

Do 4.4 of the titegroup, OAL 1.200 to start with with the 230 gr plated.

I've shot a lot with that general charge.

You go girl! That reload stuff is going to waste there :)
 
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I made a couple dummy rounds earlier this year and the OAL was 1.276" and, granted, it was only 1, but it would cycle through my HK.
I used that one plus some snap caps.

I just need a starting grain with Titegroup that y'all have used with good results.
I'll go from there and learn. :)
 
When I started 9mm I started with X-treme 125 gn. plated RN. I found that the FMJ load data was pretty close to what I chronographed and there certainly was no over pressure issue even as I approached maximums. Like JohnFreeman says, stay on the longish side, I did.

Lead and coated bullets, I now shoot Blue Bullets, require lower charge weights to generate the same muzzle velocities. I have chalked it up to the softness of lead and coatings compared to copper, but there is also probably some difference in coefficient of friction against steel (like I know. You are the engineer.)
 
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I've also got over 2k in 9mm lead from Chey - Cast Bullets Hi-Tek Supercoat and
over 1k in 45 lead from Missouri Bullet Co.

Gonna stay with the X-treme for now since I've got about 1k of 45 & 9mm
 
A few things to add that you hopefully find helpful

1) HP-38 and Win-231 are the same powder. I've seen some manuals have one but not the other. Make sure to look for both.

2) I get most of my data from either the powder manufacturer's website or the bullet manufacturer's website. That works well for me.

3) Speaking of that, the Lee manual is going to be nothing more than taking the powder manufacturer's recipes and publishing them. Lyman and other manuals will actually publish their own tests.

4) I generally disregard OAL when I'm looking at loads. I find the longest that the bullet can be for my gun by loading a dummy round and then go five or ten thousandths shorter.
 
Another tip , check the dummy rounds in your mag , they may function in your chamber, but rub the front wall of the mag causing them not to feed correctly, I don't use Tite group so can't help you on load data,
 
Thanks. :)

I'm not gonna try anything tonight but hopefully tomorrow.

How do I know, when I shoot them, that they are OK?
I know...pull the trigger and it goes bang and my gun didn't blow up, but is that all???
Do I need to chrono them?

Or am I getting too far ahead of myself? :)
 
If your primers back out or cases bulge loads are too hot , I m guessing you're reloading for target shooting or idpa , you shouldn't be approaching max load data on these round for this, I guessing in 800 to 825 fps on the 45 acp rounds which if you're shooting idpa let's you make power factor but isn't hot enough to be unmanageable or dangerous, accuracy for me is more important than fps
 
Thanks. :)

I'm not gonna try anything tonight but hopefully tomorrow.

How do I know, when I shoot them, that they are OK?
I know...pull the trigger and it goes bang and my gun didn't blow up, but is that all???
Do I need to chrono them?

Or am I getting too far ahead of myself? :)
Google pressure signs or look them up in one of your manuals. It's highly doubtful that you'll encounter those unless you accidentally double charge one, but you should be familiar with them.

One thing to look for is a squib load. It will be noticeably underpowered. Just make sure the bullet cleared the barrel if you have any doubts.

I wouldn't expect either of those things to occur with a minimum powder charge, but they're the extremes to be mindful of. Both are dangerous.

Otherwise, just look for proper function of the gun and accuracy.

And enjoy your new hobby.
 
If your primers back out or cases bulge loads are too hot , I m guessing you're reloading for target shooting or idpa , you shouldn't be approaching max load data on these round for this, I guessing in 800 to 825 fps on the 45 acp rounds which if you're shooting idpa let's you make power factor but isn't hot enough to be unmanageable or dangerous, accuracy for me is more important than fps
Yea, just doing reloads for the target practice stuff.
 
Thanks. :)

I'm not gonna try anything tonight but hopefully tomorrow.

How do I know, when I shoot them, that they are OK?
I know...pull the trigger and it goes bang and my gun didn't blow up, but is that all???
Do I need to chrono them?

Or am I getting too far ahead of myself? :)

Your Lee manual has a great section on identify pressure signs. It's a great book.
 
OAL and COL are different ways to say the same thing.

For starters I would use the COL from the book. It may not be as accurate as a round loaded to the best length for your gun, but odds are very high that it'll cycle with no problems and create no risk...this is what you want for your first rounds.

I would start with the load @JohnFreeman suggested, not because he's super smart or anything, but because it is at the low to middle of the charges suggested by the manuals you have.
 
Follow the recipe and it'll go bang and put a hole where you point the pistol. In my usual safety first methodology, I think I squinted extra hard the first reloaded rounds I shot.

OAL stuff- Max is not important except that make it too long and it won't fit into your mags or chamber. Min is quite important for safety reasons.

Chrono-ing realoads is interesting, and you're welcome to borrow mine if you don't have one handy. It's pretty remarkable how close your loads will come to the forecasted velocity.

Lead rounds- use Lead loads
Plated (Xtreme, etc) - use jacketed loads or lead bullet load
Coated - Use jacketed loads or lead bullet load.
 
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Thanks!

Yea, the, uh, safety person, engineer in me will wear approved safety glasses and most likely close my eyes....

Just like I did when I built the 6.8spc and shot it for the first time. :D
 
Short story:
Seat the Xtreme 230 RN to 1.245-1.250".

Work up the Titegroup with 3 charges, 4.4, 4.6, and 4.8gn. I would not worry too much about high pressure since you are seating the bullets longer than the listed data. (BTW, Hornady also lists 1.200" and 4.8gn max)
Go to the range.

Long story:
1st thing I recommend for any new reloader (especially for pistol) is to learn the "plunk test". This will tell you how long you can seat the bullets for your particular gun.

Since you are loading the plated 230gn RN Xtreme bullets, I can help you there, as I have loaded/shot several thousand of those. They can be loaded to the SAAMI max length of 1.275" and will plunk just fine in ALL of my guns. I can tell you that you should not seat them shorter than about 1.220" or the ogive will start to recess inside the case mouth. I have found they feed reliably in everything I have if seated to about 1.245-1.250".

The longer they are seated, the lower the pressure for a given charge of powder (and consequently the velocity will be lower). When you see a higher charge listed in load data, look at the listed COL to see if it is longer, as that would explain the higher charge.

Different bullets will also have different base-tip lengths (leaving different internal volume), and different hardness, different friction, etc. any of which may result in different max charge.

Pressure signs are good to know, but be aware that 45acp is a low pressure round, so you can't use primer deformation as a reliable indicator for over-pressure. A good indicator for LOW pressure is how dirty the outside of the case becomes when fired. Dirty/sooty cases indicate low pressure, where the pressure was not high enough to expand the case to form a gas seal.

What I normally do for first loads is to look up all the data from multiple sources that I can find. As noted earlier, Lee manual is just reprinted data from powder manufacturer's data, so I go directly to their websites for the latest info. For Xtreme, if you call them and talk to them directly, they will recommend you use Speer data for their TMJ bullets, and I have found their data to be the closest to my results with Xtreme bullets. (My Speer manual does not have data for Titegroup, either).

I will take the data from multiple sources and compare them. I will usually average the data and start there. I will work up 5 or 10 rounds of each charge, usually 3-5 charge levels total, and head to the range to test. Sometimes the lowest charge may not be enough to cycle the gun, or may not be enough to lock the slide on an empty mag. Pay particular attention that you don't have a squib (round stuck in the barrel). Since I chrono all my loads, I usually have a max velocity in mind, and will stop shooting if I start to exceed that velocity, or if I see pressure signs. If you don't have a chrono, you can look at the cases to see if they are sooty (low pressure) and also how far the cases are ejected. You can also judge the recoil, but that is very subjective. Keep in mind that a fast burning powder will reach max pressure at a lower velocity/recoil than a slower burning powder.

When working with Titegroup, be especially careful that you don't accidentally double charge. You should intentionally double charge a case just to know what it looks like, but be sure to empty it back into the hopper. Titegroup is a very good performing powder for a lot of calibers, but it is possible to double charge most calibers and not overflow.

Hope this helps.
 
I don't have much to add other than seconding @Toprudder regarding double charge. TiteGroup is awesome, but its relatively low charge weights make it very easy to double without spilling any. Especially in a .45 case.
 
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My advice is to focus on geometry first and then determine a powder selection and charge wt.

Build some dummy rounds and use the plunk test and manual cycling to fidddle with your cartridge length. Once that's settled you can look at your books and select one that fits with your cartridge.

For example if you had to set your bullet to 1.22" in order to get it to plunk right I would ignore Lyman and use Lee for Win231 data. If 1.275" works then use Lyman's data. Try not to use data developed with a test a cartridge longer than the OAL your gun needs.
 
Short story:
Seat the Xtreme 230 RN to 1.245-1.250".

Work up the Titegroup with 3 charges, 4.4, 4.6, and 4.8gn. I would not worry too much about high pressure since you are seating the bullets longer than the listed data. (BTW, Hornady also lists 1.200" and 4.8gn max)
Go to the range.

Long story:
1st thing I recommend for any new reloader (especially for pistol) is to learn the "plunk test". This will tell you how long you can seat the bullets for your particular gun.

Since you are loading the plated 230gn RN Xtreme bullets, I can help you there, as I have loaded/shot several thousand of those. They can be loaded to the SAAMI max length of 1.275" and will plunk just fine in ALL of my guns. I can tell you that you should not seat them shorter than about 1.220" or the ogive will start to recess inside the case mouth. I have found they feed reliably in everything I have if seated to about 1.245-1.250".

The longer they are seated, the lower the pressure for a given charge of powder (and consequently the velocity will be lower). When you see a higher charge listed in load data, look at the listed COL to see if it is longer, as that would explain the higher charge.

Different bullets will also have different base-tip lengths (leaving different internal volume), and different hardness, different friction, etc. any of which may result in different max charge.

Pressure signs are good to know, but be aware that 45acp is a low pressure round, so you can't use primer deformation as a reliable indicator for over-pressure. A good indicator for LOW pressure is how dirty the outside of the case becomes when fired. Dirty/sooty cases indicate low pressure, where the pressure was not high enough to expand the case to form a gas seal.

What I normally do for first loads is to look up all the data from multiple sources that I can find. As noted earlier, Lee manual is just reprinted data from powder manufacturer's data, so I go directly to their websites for the latest info. For Xtreme, if you call them and talk to them directly, they will recommend you use Speer data for their TMJ bullets, and I have found their data to be the closest to my results with Xtreme bullets. (My Speer manual does not have data for Titegroup, either).

I will take the data from multiple sources and compare them. I will usually average the data and start there. I will work up 5 or 10 rounds of each charge, usually 3-5 charge levels total, and head to the range to test. Sometimes the lowest charge may not be enough to cycle the gun, or may not be enough to lock the slide on an empty mag. Pay particular attention that you don't have a squib (round stuck in the barrel). Since I chrono all my loads, I usually have a max velocity in mind, and will stop shooting if I start to exceed that velocity, or if I see pressure signs. If you don't have a chrono, you can look at the cases to see if they are sooty (low pressure) and also how far the cases are ejected. You can also judge the recoil, but that is very subjective. Keep in mind that a fast burning powder will reach max pressure at a lower velocity/recoil than a slower burning powder.

When working with Titegroup, be especially careful that you don't accidentally double charge. You should intentionally double charge a case just to know what it looks like, but be sure to empty it back into the hopper. Titegroup is a very good performing powder for a lot of calibers, but it is possible to double charge most calibers and not overflow.

Hope this helps.
You are freaking awesome!!! :)
 
Oh Lord Have Mercy.

I have plans tomorrow to meet a friend out near G'bo...
I'm riding the Duc for the first time in a while.
Won't get any reloading done tomorrow, but I have Monday off.. :)
 
You guys may think I'm weird, but I need to print out some of this info.

I'm a visual person, do better with a piece that I can touch/feel than this internet stuff.

So, @Toprudder, I'll need to get more printer paper and print this thread out.

Sometimes, I dislike being an engineer.
Especially one that is OCD-ish....:)
 
Lead rounds- use Lead loads
Plated (Xtreme, etc) - use jacketed loads or lead bullet load
Coated - Use jacketed loads or lead bullet load.

I start with lead data for lead, plated and coated. I use jacketed data only for jacketed rounds. This is as I've been told, and I still have 10 fingers.
 
I start with lead data for lead, plated and coated. I use jacketed data only for jacketed rounds. This is as I've been told, and I still have 10 fingers.

No argument there. There's typically NO data for coated, so we're all on our own in that instance. I never load towards the max, so I avoid most of what I believe to be the danger zone.
 
Sometimes, I dislike being an engineer.
Especially one that is OCD-ish....:)

An OCD, engineer. I already know one at my club. Be careful, his road to addiction was very short indeed. The data available to you, based solely on match performance, is NOTHING compared to what you can do with a caliper, set of Hornady bullet comparators, a micrometer. and an Excel spreadsheet. Stay away from precision rifle, since he discovered target measurement software, he only ventures out of the reloading room to "collect more data".
 
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Since every one has jumped into advanced info let me go back to the starting line and go from there.

We need to begin with your brass. Select 100 of what you feel is you is your best brass, all the same head stamp. Now get ALL of them to a standard length, AFTER cleaning and AFTER resizing. Now you will have a solid baseline beginning. We don't know anything about your brass, only you do!! Keep these 100 separated from all others and only use these for right now.

During your testing stage use only ONE primer, CCI, WW, whatever tickles your fancy but do not change it at this time. Your manual may specify one over the other, if so use that one.

Focus on ONE type bullet and put the rest aside for now. Let's reduce variables at this point in time.

Do the OAL test using the uniformed brass in your gun. Please stick to ONE gun for right now. Remove the barrel and drop each one into the chamber and make sure it is seating to the chamber. You'll immediately know those that may be long but there isn't any way to tell if others are short, calipers are your friend, and your manual should give you the max/min trim to length.

Once you know the empty brass will seat into your gun we have a baseline to work from.

Prime all 100 and set them aside while we determine what we're going to load into them.

Powders, a wicked web, at this point let's again stick to ONE. Of the powders you mentioned 231 is the most common and has been used in 45 ACP since the beginning of time and available every where except CVS and Walgreens'.

Go to your manuals, and keeping with our theme, pick ONE and set the rest aside for now. Find the 45 ACP section, then your bullet choice and then your powder choice. There will be numerous load listings for your bullet beginning at a low "minimum" and going to the "maximum". List them all on a piece of paper.

This is going beyond my patience level for typing. I'll PM you my phone number so you can call me when you have at least 30 to 45 minutes to talk and we'll finish...
 
Bob, you reading this? ? :D
I know not of what you speak.

Seriously, though, loading 45acp is not rocket science. When I started out, I sorted all the brass according to headstamp. I worked all my loads up using one headstamp, was anal about powder charges, seating depth, etc. Always looking for the elusive single digit standard deviations. Fact is, when shooting inside 25 yards it doesn't really seem to make that much difference. I don't sort my 45 brass by headstamp anymore, or keep track of how many times it has been fired. I am still a little OCD when working up test loads, but not when loading up normal plinking loads for shooting at 10 yards.

For rifle, though, I definitely resemble the remarks made by John. The struggle is real. :p
 
All my brass is sorted by headstamp.
Most is either Federal or Winchester in separate containers.
Still have more 45 to clean, but I've got a fair amount already cleaned.
I do have a bucket of Speer plus another with miscellaneous brass of PMC, PPU, etc.

My primers are Winchester for now.

I toss the Ammoland or Ammoload, whichever one it is.

@Baily Boat...Thanks.
Got your cell and will give you a call this evening, if that's good with you.
If not, tell me when a good time would be.

Going to get the Monster out now and ride for a bit. :)
 
Thanks. :)

I'm not gonna try anything tonight but hopefully tomorrow.

How do I know, when I shoot them, that they are OK?
I know...pull the trigger and it goes bang and my gun didn't blow up, but is that all???
Do I need to chrono them?

Or am I getting too far ahead of myself? :)

I took the NRA reloading class before I started getting too far into reloading. I have several successful recipes for 9mm, but can't help with .45. Since you're shooting pistol, stick with the conservative side of any loads. If it goes boom, makes a hole in paper about where you expect and cycles your gun, that's good enough- I don't see a reason to make it go 'Boom', or 'BOOM', because that gets you too close to KABOOM.


As Bob mentioned, and I'm finding out, reloading rifle is an order of magnitude harder- my spreadsheet doesn't have any 'successful' tested rifle loads, but several successful pistol ones.

Ducati? Cool. Bob also mentioned a common thread among reloaders is motorcycles.
 
All my brass is sorted by headstamp.
Most is either Federal or Winchester in separate containers.
Still have more 45 to clean, but I've got a fair amount already cleaned.
I do have a bucket of Speer plus another with miscellaneous brass of PMC, PPU, etc.

My primers are Winchester for now.

I toss the Ammoland or Ammoload, whichever one it is.

@Baily Boat...Thanks.
Got your cell and will give you a call this evening, if that's good with you.
If not, tell me when a good time would be.

Going to get the Monster out now and ride for a bit. :)

Anytime before 7:00..... Dinner and quiet time......
 
For rifle, though, I definitely resemble the remarks made by John.

I have to ask, because anyone who plays with rifle reloading is a little bit of a control freak in the first place (I certainly am when it comes to my rifles). But a good friend pulled me back from the edge, after I started to use this software. A hard drive crash and he intervened (shamed me publicly) before I could replace it - it was cold turkey. Had it not been for him, I would probably be in a 12 step program by now. So the question is, do you, or have you used Reloader's Workshop for your reloading, performance, and lot tracking records?
 
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I do stuff that is Knot Right when I get a new powder or bullet. I will look at the min. and max load and take the average of them as a starting point. Some time us a chrono to see how close to the average velocity is to the true velocity. As toprudder said, inside 25 yards I can not tell that much difference. Bailey boat is correct when he said stick with one gun when testing the loads but again I am Knot Right because I do not shoot the same gun all the time and do not want different bullets (loads) for the same caliber. This flows over to my thoughts on reloading the same rounds for a pistol/revolver and a carbine.

If I was shooting competition, my thoughts on reloading would be completely different and if I was a good shot.
 
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