Illegal Gun Control By NC Park Service

OverMountainMan

OverMountainMan

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Yesterday at Herschel's place. Clip:

"So this leaves us with only two apparent options for interpretation of the signage and the statement on the park web site. The first option is that it is intended to be an end run around the legislature who has not spoken to the issue of open carry in state parks, or anywhere else for that matter. The state park service is making up their own laws."
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I've always been told concealed carry (valid CC permit) was allowed in all state parks (except inside welcome centers and other buildings) but open carry was prohibited.

From the website -

Firearms and other weapons are prohibited except that those with a proper permit may possess a concealed handgun in permitted areas and under the requirements of North Carolina G.S. 14-415.11. All firearms and weapons are prohibited in state park visitor centers and park offices.
 
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OverMountainMan said:
And upon what basis would it be "prohibited"?
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"Firearms and other weapons are prohibited except that those with a proper permit may possess a concealed handgun"

I once hiked 8 or so miles at Hanging Rock while OC'ing. I assumed it was OK and nobody batted an eye or said a word. Afterwards I realized I wasn't supposed to after speaking to an employee (on a different visit) and looking at the website.

I OC 99 prcent of the time so I wasn't happy about it.
 
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gc70 said:
Yes, they are, under the authority granted to them by the legislature in N.C.G.S. § 143B-135.16.
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"I'm the government, and I grant my agents to make up any crap that they want", right?

FlatFender said:
Under the current NC laws, I don't see anything illegal about this sign?
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Discarding the fact that any "legal" restriction is infringement of the 2A, isn't the owner of private property the only one who can legally forbid open carry under current NC law?
 
OverMountainMan said:
"I'm the government, and I grant my agents to make up any crap that they want", right?

Discarding the fact that any "legal" restriction is infringement of the 2A, isn't the owner of private property the only one who can legally forbid open carry under current NC law?
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The legislature has given the Parks Department very broad authority to create rules for state parks. While the legislature has largely reserved lawmaking for concealed carry to itself, there are practically no laws dealing with open carry. Therefore, the Parks Department can essentially adopt whatever rules it wishes concerning open carry.
 
Two years back when I called for a primitive camping permit, I was told by some woman that no firearms were allowed in the park I was going to.

I printed out the state law saying CCW was allowed, laminated it, and carried anyway.
It's ridiculous that people tasked with enforcing law don't even know the law.
 
rdinatal said:
What's the difference between a Park Rule and State Law?

Law = Jail
Rule = Told to leave

Now I know the powers can take you for a ride but if you only broke a Rule what law have you broken?

-R
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Precisely. But if it's MY park as much or more than it's any state functionary's park, can he do anything more than ASK me to leave?

If the "legislature" can grant blanket permission to some entity to conjure a law from a rule, that circumvents my basic rights, and abrogates their oaths all at once, this is no different than the conman's shell game.
 
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Here's the thing, I think put under strict scrutiny, all gun laws would fall as unconstitutional infringements, however, I don't have the money to fight these things, and I want as little interaction with gov actors as possible.

I agree with you that under the Constitution, I should be able to carry whatever I want, wherever, especially parks where I, as a member of the general public, have ownership.

Unfortunately, that's not where we're at right now.
 
You realize that section c3 seems to contradict your understanding, right? If that's the statute you intended to quote, anyways.

"It shall be lawful..."
 
That's what I thought, so what value posting any of that as pertains to this discussion? Except, of course, as more of the aforementioned circuitous-logic shell game?
 
FlatFender said:
Because c1 specifies ccw with a permit in state parks.
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Which either misses or misdirects from the whole point. In effect c1 says "you can do what's lawful, if you're lawfully doing it."

Well, duh.

And, I think, NONE of what you've contributed says that it's illegal for an American to openly carry in State Parks.
FlatFender said:
Here's the thing, I think put under strict scrutiny, all gun laws would fall as unconstitutional infringements, however, I don't have the money to fight these things, and I want as little interaction with gov actors as possible.

I agree with you that under the Constitution, I should be able to carry whatever I want, wherever, especially parks where I, as a member of the general public, have ownership.

Unfortunately, that's not where we're at right now.
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So, basically, you disagree with the tyrant and his henchmen, but you'd rather...
  • A) not put up any resistance, and
  • B) not have ME or anyone else speak out about tyrannical bureaucratic over-reach, even if it benefits you.
That about right?
 
rdinatal said:
What's the difference between a Park Rule and State Law?

Law = Jail
Rule = Told to leave

Now I know the powers can take you for a ride but if you only broke a Rule what law have you broken?

-R
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According to N.C.G.S. § 143B-135.16, breaking a park rule is a class 3 misdemeanor.


§ 143B-135.16. Control over State parks; operation of public service facilities; concessions to private concerns; authority to charge fees and adopt rules.

(a) The Department shall make reasonable rules governing the use by the public of State parks and State lakes under its charge. These rules shall be posted in conspicuous places on and adjacent to the properties of the State and at the courthouse of the county or counties in which the properties are located. A violation of these rules is punishable as a Class 3 misdemeanor.
 
Ferrisfan said:
According to N.C.G.S. § 143B-135.16, breaking a park rule is a class 3 misdemeanor.


§ 143B-135.16. Control over State parks; operation of public service facilities; concessions to private concerns; authority to charge fees and adopt rules.

(a) The Department shall make reasonable rules governing the use by the public of State parks and State lakes under its charge. These rules shall be posted in conspicuous places on and adjacent to the properties of the State and at the courthouse of the county or counties in which the properties are located. A violation of these rules is punishable as a Class 3 misdemeanor.
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Excellent. So, even if its a violation of my rights to impose such a rule, I (and those like me) should just go along with it, yes?

Thought experiment-

Let's say we're not talking about my right to self-defense, but your right of free assembly. A delegation of beta-cucks want to gather to share & compare snowflake tears, or something like that, yet there are posted RULEZ! that say you can't do it. Tuff-titty said the kitty...dems da rules.

What if the rules say you can't criticize the governor? Or, you have a bumper-sticker that reads "Free Ferris", that's bound to offend Mr. Rooney...No hurt-words free speech in the park.

Let's say the Department makes a rule, reasonable enough to them, forbidding Catholics or Jews or Baptists, or (gasp!) the musloids. You gonna kick up a fuss?

Howza bout prohibiting or segregating certain races or classes of people? Does your sense of "right" then start feeling infringed upon?

In other words, where do you draw the line on which (or how, or how many) of your rights you're willing to have trampled by a State that is all-too-willing to trample them?
 
OverMountainMan said:
Excellent. So, even if its a violation of my rights to impose such a rule, I (and those like me) should just go along with it, yes?

Thought experiment-

Let's say we're not talking about my right to self-defense, but your right of free assembly. A delegation of beta-cucks want to gather to share & compare snowflake tears, or something like that, yet there are posted RULEZ! that say you can't do it. Tuff-titty said the kitty...dems da rules.

What if the rules say you can't criticize the governor? Or, you have a bumper-sticker that reads "Free Ferris", that's bound to offend Mr. Rooney...No hurt-words free speech in the park.

Let's say the Department makes a rule, reasonable enough to them, forbidding Catholics or Jews or Baptists, or (gasp!) the musloids. You gonna kick up a fuss?

Howza bout prohibiting or segregating certain races or classes of people? Does your sense of "right" then start feeling infringed upon?

In other words, where do you draw the line on which (or how, or how many) of your rights you're willing to have trampled by a State that is all-too-willing to trample them?
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I think we all agree to the infringement. The rules or laws aren't going to be changed by arguing with people on here who are simply pointing them out. Lol
 
OverMountainMan said:
Excellent. So, even if its a violation of my rights to impose such a rule, I (and those like me) should just go along with it, yes?

Thought experiment-

Let's say we're not talking about my right to self-defense, but your right of free assembly. A delegation of beta-cucks want to gather to share & compare snowflake tears, or something like that, yet there are posted RULEZ! that say you can't do it. Tuff-titty said the kitty...dems da rules.

What if the rules say you can't criticize the governor? Or, you have a bumper-sticker that reads "Free Ferris", that's bound to offend Mr. Rooney...No hurt-words free speech in the park.

Let's say the Department makes a rule, reasonable enough to them, forbidding Catholics or Jews or Baptists, or (gasp!) the musloids. You gonna kick up a fuss?

Howza bout prohibiting or segregating certain races or classes of people? Does your sense of "right" then start feeling infringed upon?

In other words, where do you draw the line on which (or how, or how many) of your rights you're willing to have trampled by a State that is all-too-willing to trample them?
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I don't really understand why you are trying so hard to put intention behind my words. I didn't say, nor even imply that I agree with the stance that the state is taking. Another poster asked about the difference between violating a rule and a law, and I attempted to clarify that in the eyes of the law, breaking the state park rules has a specified legal consequence. Break the rules or don't as is your prerogative. Sorry I tried to help by answering a question that was asked.
 
@Ferrisfan Sorry if it seemed like I was over-reacting. I just took issue with a sentiment (which I thought maybe you endorsed) that's "them's the laws, Bucko, best get used to 'em."
 
And I was looking for an opportunity to wedge in the question of "when does a man's rights get up out of bed in opposition to what's deemed lawful?"
 
I'm over here trying to do maffs, and you're tipping my Guam over with the FlatFerrisFenderFan alliteration. Honest mistake on my part.
 
OverMountainMan said:
@Ferrisfan Sorry if it seemed like I was over-reacting. I just took issue with a sentiment (which I thought maybe you endorsed) that's "them's the laws, Bucko, best get used to 'em."
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It's all good from my end. Hope to shoot with you some day.
 
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Maybe I'm missing the issue here, but the parks do allow CCW. You can have a firearm on yourself for self defense in NC parks.
 
Blame the legislature, maybe under pressure from the parks. They had the opportunity to open that up, and chose CC only instead. You are giving a lot of folks grief about this, but were you part of telling the legislature that this was not legal under the NC Constitution? I was. I don't like it. But unless you want to a- start pressuring reps again or b- be the test case; complaining is not going to change their screw up. Which is what that is IMO. And an unconstitutional screw up at that.

Craziest thing is, I OC'd in the GSMNP almost all day Saturday while hiking. While I didn't come across a lot of folks on the trail, I was perfectly legal to do it. This is only a NC state park issue. Another one of our nutty, non sensical gun laws.
 
chiefjason said:
Blame the legislature, maybe under pressure from the parks. They had the opportunity to open that up, and chose CC only instead. You are giving a lot of folks grief about this, but were you part of telling the legislature that this was not legal under the NC Constitution? I was. I don't like it. But unless you want to a- start pressuring reps again or b- be the test case; complaining is not going to change their screw up. Which is what that is IMO. And an unconstitutional screw up at that.

Craziest thing is, I OC'd in the GSMNP almost all day Saturday while hiking. While I didn't come across a lot of folks on the trail, I was perfectly legal to do it. This is only a NC state park issue. Another one of our nutty, non sensical gun laws.
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Maybe NC needs to pass a Credit Card bill ;) like the one that made Nat Park carry possible
 
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