Julie Golob: Barriers to Shooting Competition Too High

If you guys want matches that run fast, I challenge you to try setting one up and running it. It isn't as easy as you think and this isn't the first time people wished they ran faster.

If you can charge more, you can set up a tee time style match where people show up and shoot straight through in small groups with staff dedicated on each stage. Doesn't save range usage time but the participants can shoot a match in an hour or two instead of 3-6.
 
Maybe I can offer an explanation. Club Members are a little more than tired of these matches that only occur on a weekend and occupy most, if not all of the available range space. It has relegated the Members to using lesser ranges (shorter distances and space) if they intend to shoot at all on that day. Since there are only 2 weekend days the member is now effectively shut out on that weekend. It has been my experience that the majority of the participants of these shoots are non members yet allowed to return time and time again without ever committing to becoming a member. The Members have begun to complain to their board of directors about these conditions and the expansion has been slowed.

Members
are what support the facilities and provide the space for these competitions. They provide (through the dues) the maintenance and upkeep that non members enjoy. The Members see this as an infringement on their rights as a dues paying Member. I hear people complain about the cost to join a club and not realize that someone is paying the bill for the facilities they enjoy for practically nothing.

Flame on......

Not sure you did the math right here. If ranges were holding matches for free, then yeah...it's an infringement. But PHA (for example) charges $20 per person to shoot. So on the Saturday they hold them the range brings in between $1000-1500 in range fees, and most people are out of there by 2-3pm. It 4 matches of similar size are held each month that is getting the club in the neighborhood of $40,000-$50,000 per year. Or the equivalent of or the equivalent of about 100 extra membership dues.

Your reasoning reminds me of people who are residents at a beach community complaining about the tourists who come in during the summer months.


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Not sure you did the math right here. If ranges were holding matches for free, then yeah...it's an infringement. But PHA (for example) charges $20 per person to shoot. So on the Saturday they hold them the range brings in between $1000-1500 in range fees, and most people are out of there by 2-3pm. It 4 matches of similar size are held each month that is getting the club in the neighborhood of $40,000-$50,000 per year. Or the equivalent of or the equivalent of about 100 extra membership dues.

Your reasoning reminds me of people who are residents at a beach community complaining about the tourists who come in during the summer months.

You missed my point, the money isn't the big thing (and it's no where as big as you make it). It's an infringement on my rights that I pay for as a member.
 
You missed my point, the money isn't the big thing (and it's no where as big as you make it). It's an infringement on my rights that I pay for as a member.

Sure it is.

That attitude is >exactly< what keeps people out of the shooting sports.


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You missed my point, the money isn't the big thing (and it's no where as big as you make it). It's an infringement on my rights that I pay for as a member.

The invited guest pay a much higher fee. A fee that your club uses to the members advantages and benefits that the invited guest are exempt from
 
Sure it is.

That attitude is >exactly< what keeps people out of the shooting sports.

What can I say?? I'm in the same boat, I don't race unlimited hydroplane boats because I don't have that kind of money. Should they loan Miss Budweiser to me?? I don't see that happening. I still boat but not at that level. I do more than my share to get new shooters into the sport, more than you'll ever be aware of......

The invited guest pay a much higher fee. A fee that your club uses to the members advantages and benefits that the invited guest are exempt from

Define "much higher". Maybe your definition is different than mine. I've always seen it at 5.00 or so, correct me if I'm wrong..... But if you were a member........
 
What can I say?? I'm in the same boat, I don't race unlimited hydroplane boats because I don't have that kind of money. Should they loan Miss Budweiser to me?? I don't see that happening. I still boat but not at that level. I do more than my share to get new shooters into the sport, more than you'll ever be aware of......



Define "much higher". Maybe your definition is different than mine. I've always seen it at 5.00 or so, correct me if I'm wrong..... But if you were a member........

To begin with, your comparison is asinine and clearly shows your lack of understanding of the subject matter at hand. This isn't about pro v amateur. An accurate comparison would be a marina holding events at a lake to promote boating vs people like you who claim absolute ownership of the waterways because you pay the marina to store your boat. As far as your pompous boast of people you have allegedly gotten into the shooting sports, that is also irrelevant to this discussion.

Your argument against clubs holding public matches mirrors the old fogies at golf clubs who got their panties in a bunch when Tiger got kids excited about golf and they wanted to start playing. The "This is MY sport and Ill choose who I bring into it!" attitude is specifically what is hurting the shooting sports and what is, at the core, part of what Mrs. Golob was speaking about.
 
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Define "much higher". Maybe your definition is different than mine. I've always seen it at 5.00 or so, correct me if I'm wrong..... But if you were a member........
Membership is on average $150.00 ish a year for all access to the range and amenities.

An invited guest visiting 12 times a year at $20.00 each trip is $240.00, which only allows access to the current bays at the match and only during said match time.

So yeah, my guests fees are a lot more than your dues.
 
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Membership is on average $150.00 ish a year for all access to the range and amenities.

An invited guest visiting 12 times a year at $20.00 each trip is $240.00, which only allows access to the current bays at the match and only during said match time.

So yeah, my guests fees are a lot more than your dues.

Math eludes many people...and at the end of the day, Math, like facts, doesn't care about ones feelings.

PHA, for example, averages 5o shooters. Some resident, many quests, so at $20 per pop that is $1,000 per match. 12 matches per year is an >extra< $12,000 going into the coffers to pay the rent and keep things going. The only extra expense to the range is a few targets and some posters. Not to mention the booth set up to sell grub and waters. So, you lease out a portion of your range for 5 hours per month and net an extra $10,000 per year for the club. Or the equivalent of 40-50 paid memberships.
 
I give up!! I'm just glad we have 2 brains like you two to explain the error of my ways to me. It seems Booger is making a (edited due to uncivil language in a civil conversation) career out of it.... Good luck.... My opinion still stands, like it or not...
 
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I give up!! I'm just glad we have 2 brains like you two to explain the error of my ways to me. It seems Booger is making a (edited because I don't think clearly) career out of it.... Good luck.... My opinion still stands, like it or not...

Or, you could just admit that perhaps your way of thinking is possibly out dated and is part of the reason the shooting sports is slow to grow. Or, you could throw yourself a pity party, cuss, and claim righteousness based on a lack of facts.
 
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even our range, CCGC, 2 gun matches run from 8am to 2pm. that pretty much wipes out Saturday by the time you get home and clean up

Exactly my problem.

I joined CCGC last year and one reason was to practice for and enter the 2-Gun match. I've since done several there and at PHA and got hooked. Great people at both locations and I did not have a problem at all coming in as a beginner (although I am proficient with my weapons and had researched enough to have some gear).

Flash forward to today - I'm out as they just take up too much time. Even my wife noticed you get to shoot 5 minutes out of a whole day and that's not a good use of time. If I could be out by 12, it would be worth it. 3-4 pm, not so much.
 
Exactly my problem.

I joined CCGC last year and one reason was to practice for and enter the 2-Gun match. I've since done several there and at PHA and got hooked. Great people at both locations and I did not have a problem at all coming in as a beginner (although I am proficient with my weapons and had researched enough to have some gear).

Flash forward to today - I'm out as they just take up too much time. Even my wife noticed you get to shoot 5 minutes out of a whole day and that's not a good use of time. If I could be out by 12, it would be worth it. 3-4 pm, not so much.
But...if you spend all that time shooting, how are you ever going to find time to give your buddies a hard time?
 
Perhaps I can offer something as one who has never who has never participated in one of these competitions, but who is considering getting started. It is not trivial for someone in my situation to get started, or even find out if this is something I would enjoy.

I happened to see the post on Julie Gollub's comments the same day I saw this article: "10 Signals That Say "You are Not Welcome in This Church". Excerpt:

The [church bulletin] announcement reads: "The youth will have their next meeting this week at Stacy's house. See Shawn for directions. Team B is in charge of refreshments."

Good luck to the young person visiting that day and hoping to break into the clique. He has no idea who Shawn is, how to get to Stacy's house or what's going on if he dares to attend.

Many posts announcing events refer to the location only by initials, no times, no address, no link to more information. If I find a web page for the competition, often there is no introduction for novices or FAQ.

My suggestion for bringing more people into the sport (if that is a goal) is to develop a basic FAQ for someone new to the sport that easily found from the event site's web page. When folks post on forums like this, please take a moment to include a link.

And thank you to all those who give of their time and resources to make these competitions happen! I realize the last thing you need are suggestions from a not-even-newbie.
 
I wish I could join a club but I have issues with authority, hate crowds, and mistrust strangers. :confused:
 
Perhaps I can offer something as one who has never who has never participated in one of these competitions, but who is considering getting started. It is not trivial for someone in my situation to get started, or even find out if this is something I would enjoy.

Thanks for your post. My primary Shooting discipline is cowboy action and I particularly enjoy working with new shooters. It is always helpful to get input from "prospects" from their perspective.

I think many shooters spend a lot of time thinking about getting involved in a particular shooting competition before showing up to get a firsthand look. The internet makes it possible to "window shop" and get some information, but there is nothing like being there on the ground.

I encourage you to show up at a match and check it out. You will learn more by being there than by reading about it. You can also sample the "culture" of the group and see how you might fit in. You might find that the organizers have ways to help new shooters that they didn't think to post.

Some games are more accessible to new shooters than others but it's hard to generalize. For example I attended a couple of Three Gun matches when my home club started hosting matches and I was pleased to find that the local Three Gunners were, as a whole, very supportive of new shooters.

If you think you might be interested in a shooting sport, go check it out. I can't help but include a plug for cowboy action: most cowboy clubs are eager to recruit new shooters.
 
And we will have more ranges for matches when there is an increased demand. Just in the past few years we've gotten a couple new ones around here, no reason we can't add more despite the Anti-2A crowd.

Yep. Woody's, CGGR, FLD, TSA are all within about an hour of the Triangle and I think all started in the last few years. I don't know anything about TSA, but matches are a big focus of the others because that's where the demand is and where the growth is. Matches are adding ranges, not taking them away.
 
Interesting article but I feel she has overlooked a few key points:

  1. Not everybody wants to compete or participate in an organized event/activity.
  2. Even lowering or nearly removing all financial and social barriers of entry to shooting sports, it will still be competing with all other leisure and Life activities. We all only have so much "free" time in our day/week
#1 is what held me back for years. I simply had no desire to shoot in any organized fashion until the guys here convinced me to shoot at PHA. The atmosphere at PHA is very beginner friendly and everyone is just there to have fun. That is what has me coming back every month I'm able to.
 
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I will say that when I started more than 20 years ago there were plenty of people who would greet you and explain the process. I've since gotten out of it but the last time I went to a match to spectate, people walked by me like I was looking for a place to stick a booger.
 
even our range, CCGC, 2 gun matches run from 8am to 2pm. that pretty much wipes out Saturday by the time you get home and clean up

Yeah the matches Ive been to ended just after lunch.
By the time you drive 30-40 minutes home, unpack, clean up, put stuff away youve added another 1.5 hours to your day
 
Meh...when I used to play golf (poorly) it would take a good 4 or more hours to do 18 not including a stop at the 19th hole.
 
I've since gotten out of it but the last time I went to a match to spectate, people walked by me like I was looking for a place to stick a booger.

Now that's funny

In all seriousness, I noticed the same thing
 
I quit golf for the same reason.

Well, yeah, to be honest, I did too. Being horrible helped my decision, but yeah. Time is also an issue for me as well. I get about a day per month I can get away and do some shooting. Some months that's spent at a range with a new shooter, and some months its picking up a match when I can. So I get it, time is an issue.
 
Racing motorcycles, my closest track was 4 hours away...most were much farther..8-10 hours. One way.
Just camping, expenses exceeded $300. Add $400 for bike tires. And God forbid you crash..race bike stuff is expensive.
Once a month I did this, and I'm poor. I was the proverbial privateer eating out of hubcaps.

The money to shoot competitions is nothing, and I have a USPSA outfit 30 minutes away.

It's not the money. It's not the distance. It's not the time.
The snobs are what will keep me from ever returning. They're endemic and it gets worse the more often you attend. Telling you how your grip is wrong, gun is wrong, stance is wrong, ammo is wrong.
Never mind I finished 4th out of 12 first time I went, with a bone stock G23 and a Safariland owb pancake.
"You'll be shooting Major."
Um, ok. Whatever that is...

Watching the regulars spend 20 minutes arguing whether it was 2 holes touching or a keyhole. Complaining about pasting or 20 rounds of brass. Sniveling about the rate increase from $15 to $20.
If they weren't full of gray hair, mostly on their back, and 5olbs overweight, I'd swear they were 11 years old.
The old saying is true. You're a baby twice in your life.

Nope. You guys can have my share and I won't even charge you for it.
 
My experience has been good with uspsa, but I'm an extrovert. I see many people who show up for the first time who either make themselves part of the squad and insert themselves amongst the crowd, or you barely remember they were there. As shooters we need to do a better job of engaging with the "shy" ones, and offering help in a way that is beneficial without running anyone off. Part of that is knowing when to recommend a new grip, stance, etc and knowing when that person isn't ready or doesn't want that kind of help. Some are instantly open to it and want all the advice they can mentally hold. Some just want you to talk to them without offering to change everything they know about shooting. One thing that sticks out I my mind is the statesville match. Charles always has a new shooter briefing (at least he did last time I was there). Many ranges just kind of give a briefing to everyone, or there may be no briefing at all. We can all do a better job of reading the new shooters and making them feel welcome and a part of the crowd in the ways that they need. My first match was at ant hill and the guys there were friendlier than I expected, other than one guy telling me to trade my g17 for a 34 if I wanted to be competitive (think I finished third in production steel challenge match). The shooting sports are growing right now, and if we want that trend to continue we need to retain those who build up the nerve or get curious enough to come out.
 
How much cheaper do we need to make it? IDPA is very cheap to start in, 1 Gun, 3 Magazines, 1 Holster, 2 Mag Pouches, and 100 rounds of ammo.

The old stereo typical gun guys are a dying bread, not that many of them left. I'm seeing more and more younger shooters at matches.

Lack of range space and time is a real thing. I would hate for my club to be closed 3 out 4 weekends a month for matches. Most people really only have time to shoot on the weekends.
 
Lack of range space and time is a real thing. I would hate for my club to be closed 3 out 4 weekends a month for matches. Most people really only have time to shoot on the weekends.

And that's the gist of what I was trying to get across before it got derailed... Because of the "matches" members are relegated to shooting on the longer pistol ranges pretty much on Sundays only. Because it is Sunday only we can't shoot anything but rim fire before noon, there goes half of the day.......
 
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And that's the gist of what I was trying to get across before it got derailed... Because of the "matches" members are relegated to shooting on the longer pistol ranges pretty much on Sundays only. Because it is Sunday only we can't shoot anything but rim fire before noon, there goes half of the day.......

You didn't get derailed, you got debunked. This thread is about enhancing the shooting sports, not encouraging people to join clubs.


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At Rowan, the USPSA match is the only match that uses all of the competition bays. It is a club ran match that has been active since the late 90's I believe. The Cowboys (held matches there since 1997) and CQTAS (started 2013) only use 3 of the 6 competition bays. All of the matches are normally over by 3:00ish pm, leaving a couple of hours on Saturday (any time of the year), to shoot.

The expansion done at Rowan to add ranges 5-9 was done with action shooting competitions in mind.

edit: more info from a member of 30 years at RCWA

The High Power Rifle Match was started in 1962 and is considered one of the oldest matches of it's designation in the country. The Buffalo rifle match has been there for years as well. There were numerous other small bore and silhouette competitions along with Action Pistol matches shot for decades until interest went away. RCWA has held World, National, Regional and State level championship matches since the 1960's. The range was founded on shotgun shooting sports and for as long as I can personally remember (shot my first round of Skeet there in 1994) the shotgun fields have been open to non-members to use on allotted days.
 
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Racing motorcycles, my closest track was 4 hours away...most were much farther..8-10 hours. One way.
Just camping, expenses exceeded $300. Add $400 for bike tires. And God forbid you crash..race bike stuff is expensive.
Once a month I did this, and I'm poor. I was the proverbial privateer eating out of hubcaps.

The money to shoot competitions is nothing, and I have a USPSA outfit 30 minutes away.

It's not the money. It's not the distance. It's not the time.
The snobs are what will keep me from ever returning. They're endemic and it gets worse the more often you attend. Telling you how your grip is wrong, gun is wrong, stance is wrong, ammo is wrong.
Never mind I finished 4th out of 12 first time I went, with a bone stock G23 and a Safariland owb pancake.
"You'll be shooting Major."
Um, ok. Whatever that is...

Watching the regulars spend 20 minutes arguing whether it was 2 holes touching or a keyhole. Complaining about pasting or 20 rounds of brass. Sniveling about the rate increase from $15 to $20.
If they weren't full of gray hair, mostly on their back, and 5olbs overweight, I'd swear they were 11 years old.
The old saying is true. You're a baby twice in your life.

Nope. You guys can have my share and I won't even charge you for it.
I know right! I hate it when people try to help me be more competitive instead of just recognizing my supreme skilz from the start. Bunch of snobs!
 
That's not it.
When racing, I would beg the fast guys to let me follow them so I could see what they did and learn something. This is normally frowned upon, but they always enthusiastically said come on!
I'm very observant. The shooters whom I admired never had issues when I quizzed them about technique or gear. They were always helpful, yet they never felt inclined to criticize unless I asked for opinions.
It's the guys who thought a little too much of themselves who thought it was their place to just approach me and tell me how much of a eff up I am.
And you are who...?
What made that annoying is that they weren't that good...

Normally, I'm easy enough to be around. But what fires me up everytime is when someone preaches holier-than-thou from a flawed position. I admit it's a problem that I should just walk away from, but I get triggered like a snowflake and come back with claws out and teeth bared.

And lastly, I also hate being grouped with others that have problematic issues and then supposedly that makes me like them. Please accept my apologies if my message has intoned that all shooters are snobs as most certainly that is not my intent. I'm sorry about that.
 
When to volunteer help can be tricky, and some people appreciate it and some don't (and of course some pay attention and learn and some don't). It's usually pretty easy to tell who wants to learn and who wants to socialize and who wants to be left alone.

I often try to help new shooters with fundamentals that they obviously lack, and occasionally others. Not everyone wants to ask for help, and many don't even realize they need it. Some never realize it :) In any case, I think it's just as bad to leave people frustrated with how they are shooting (and they give up) as it is to try to help (and be mistaken for a snob). I'm not even sure how that word applies here except to those that look down on anyone not shooting a Glock or 1911 or etc...
 
That's not it.
When racing, I would beg the fast guys to let me follow them so I could see what they did and learn something. This is normally frowned upon, but they always enthusiastically said come on!
I'm very observant. The shooters whom I admired never had issues when I quizzed them about technique or gear. They were always helpful, yet they never felt inclined to criticize unless I asked for opinions.
It's the guys who thought a little too much of themselves who thought it was their place to just approach me and tell me how much of a eff up I am.
And you are who...?
What made that annoying is that they weren't that good...

Normally, I'm easy enough to be around. But what fires me up everytime is when someone preaches holier-than-thou from a flawed position. I admit it's a problem that I should just walk away from, but I get triggered like a snowflake and come back with claws out and teeth bared.

And lastly, I also hate being grouped with others that have problematic issues and then supposedly that makes me like them. Please accept my apologies if my message has intoned that all shooters are snobs as most certainly that is not my intent. I'm sorry about that.

I've only been shooting about 4 years and am not that good myself. I'm one of those overweight gray haired guys. I have seen new shooters who have so much more ability than I do and can beat me without even trying. They can definitely get better with a couple of small hints or corrections and I have offered those. If you have run across people that tried to tell you that the way you shoot is eff'd up, then that's definitely not right. Not every way to do something is the right way for everyone. I'm never pompous when I give advice but I can be a smartass at times. Don't let a couple of pompous ass's keep you from coming out and having fun.
 
Membership is on average $150.00 ish a year for all access to the range and amenities.

An invited guest visiting 12 times a year at $20.00 each trip is $240.00, which only allows access to the current bays at the match and only during said match time.

So yeah, my guests fees are a lot more than your dues.

Our club is the same except members pay the same fee as the guest so the $150 membership now costs $390 if I wanted to shoot a match per month as opposed the the $240 the per year for the guest. I don't begrudge the matches because they do bring more people into the sport but I'd also like to use the 100 yard and the pistol bay the 1 of 2 saturdays I have free and pay for. For example, the 2 gun match uses 4 of the 7 pits that Saturday which include the 100 and 50 yard range, a pistol bay, and the shotgun bay. That leaves a 200 yd and 2 - 30 yd multipurpose pits for non- competitors
 
When to volunteer help can be tricky, and some people appreciate it and some don't (and of course some pay attention and learn and some don't). It's usually pretty easy to tell who wants to learn and who wants to socialize and who wants to be left alone.

I often try to help new shooters with fundamentals that they obviously lack, and occasionally others. Not everyone wants to ask for help, and many don't even realize they need it. Some never realize it :) In any case, I think it's just as bad to leave people frustrated with how they are shooting (and they give up) as it is to try to help (and be mistaken for a snob). I'm not even sure how that word applies here except to those that look down on anyone not shooting a Glock or 1911 or etc...

I won't interfer with your shooting unless you are doing something dangerous or ask for advice. But if your style is to shoot high power rifles while resting the butt against your crotch then go for it - I promise I will not correct you.
 
It's not the money. It's not the distance. It's not the time.
The snobs are what will keep me from ever returning. They're endemic and it gets worse the more often you attend. Telling you how your grip is wrong, gun is wrong, stance is wrong, ammo is wrong.
Never mind I finished 4th out of 12 first time I went, with a bone stock G23 and a Safariland owb pancake.
"You'll be shooting Major."
Um, ok. Whatever that is...

Watching the regulars spend 20 minutes arguing whether it was 2 holes touching or a keyhole. Complaining about pasting or 20 rounds of brass. Sniveling about the rate increase from $15 to $20.
If they weren't full of gray hair, mostly on their back, and 5olbs overweight, I'd swear they were 11 years old.
The old saying is true. You're a baby twice in your life.

Nope. You guys can have my share and I won't even charge you for it.

Sounds awful. Never been to a match like that. Sounds like you got stuck on a squad with Max Michel!

Been to plenty of matches where there are a couple of dicks. Maybe 2-3 dicks. 3gun can have some dicks in it, in my limited experience.

You can handle these folks the same way you handle a dog the jumps on you and acts up: when they engage you, just slowly turn around and show them your back.
If they try to come around to get in front to whine, just keep showing them the back. Learned this from Cesar the Dog Whisperer but found it works great with people, too.

The thing is, I have seen the dicks at track days, too. Plenty of dicks racing motorcycles. Can't let them ruin your day.
 
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