Let's talk about water heaters

noway2

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We are in the process of starting a build of a home for my parents that will likely become our as we age home too. One of the questions we're facing is what to do for a water heater? Both electric and propane will be available. Efficiency, convenience, and cost of operation are more important than up front costs as we will pay for those for a very long time. I would also like to consider a recirculating pump to avoid throwing thousands of gallons down the sewer waiting for it to get hot.

One of the other things I am thinking of doing, slightly related, is yo gave the plumbing run from a header where each area, e.g. bathroom, kitchen, etc can be isolated if needed.

My thinking is that a small tank combined with a propane on demand would be a good combination. The tank would handle hand washing and things while the on demand would kick in for larger jobs like clothes washing and showers.

Does anyone have experience they would like to share, good, bad, or otherwise? If you had a clean slate to work with, what would you do?
 
One of the other things I am thinking of doing, slightly related, is yo gave the plumbing run from a header where each area, e.g. bathroom, kitchen, etc can be isolated if needed.

This conflicts with

I would also like to consider a recirculating pump to avoid throwing thousands of gallons down the sewer waiting for it to get hot.
 
Circulating pump? As in get the hot water to the faucet without running it to purge the cold water?

An alternative to the $$ (pump, electric, return lines) since you are building... Put the water heater tank as close to the faucets as possible and insulate the hot water pipes. The tank location might not be relocatable but the best ROI is foam pipe insulation. It lets the heat flow from hot to cold (the ONLY thing I remember from Thermodynamics!) along the water and not water > pipe > air.

Oh, and I vote some type of gas, either propane and natural. JMHO

-R
 
The most efficient form for heating water and having it on demand is a tankless water heater run on gas.

The least expensive long term form of heating water is to put in a geothermal heat pump and combine that with a geothermal water heater.

I would skip the recirculating pump personally.

And the system you referred to as a header is (I believe) called a manifold. They are great. You should run one for both the cold and the hot side.

Not only does a manifold system make repairs extremely easy, with the ability to isolate every faucet, but it also maintains pressure on all outlets when more than one is being used much better. So know flow shortage when your wife flushes the toilet or brushes her teeth while you're in the shower.
 
Thank you everybody for the suggestions. I'm leaning towards a gas, it would be propane as NG isn't available there, with a manifold installation. I was concerned it would condlict with a recirculating pump. We're going yo look into Chad's suggestion, which I assume is a de-superheater on a geothermal heatpump as it would use waste heat and save money over the long haul.
 
Put it somewhere you can work on it without having to squeeze into it.

Eventually you will work on it and it don't need to be a bitch to do so.

Sent from my SM-J320V using Tapatalk
 
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Go Tankless with a manifold using smaller diameter runs to faucets. You'll have your isolation points and faster hot water to fixtures.
 
I just replaced our 50 gal propane water heater with a nat gas tankless model. supposedly I will save up to 500 a year on gas costs. I will be happy if I save 250 yearly.. propane is not as cheap. recirculating pumps seem odd to me , as much as I think it is great to have instantly have hot water, it costs electricity to keep it hot and keep it circulating. likely more than the cost of a few gallons of water . which runs to my septic field and is not completely wasted , in my case....

I wonder if multiple tankless units properly located would be cost effective in your situation.
 
The recirculation pump installations I have read up on only has the pump running when you're getting ready to use hot water. There is a switch in the bathroom/kitchen/laundry room that triggers the pump. A thermostat shuts it down as soon as it sees hot water.

I'm thinking about something like this to get hot water to the far bathroom in the Colorado house.
 
I just replaced our 50 gal propane water heater with a nat gas tankless model. supposedly I will save up to 500 a year on gas costs. I will be happy if I save 250 yearly.. propane is not as cheap. recirculating pumps seem odd to me , as much as I think it is great to have instantly have hot water, it costs electricity to keep it hot and keep it circulating. likely more than the cost of a few gallons of water . which runs to my septic field and is not completely wasted , in my case....

I wonder if multiple tankless units properly located would be cost effective in your situation.

In many cases, tankless cost more to operate, why? Because when the water doesn't get cold people tend to bathe longer. We were taught to never sell a tankless unit based on operational savings but only on space savings and continuous hot water.
 
Tankless is the way to go if the cost works out. Point of use is also a good option in low demand-out of the way applications. For example if you have a half bath on the far side of the house from all the rest of the plumbing, a small POU heater for the sink is better than heating a long run.
 
I agree that a POU unit may be best for you.....that said, I do love having endless hot water at the garden tub and 5 faucets upstairs simultaneously
 
@noway2

Where are you located? We have a very reputable plumbing outfit here in Western NC that is owned by a 3-gunner. More importantly, they have an excellent reputation. Matter of fact, they replaced my water heater this afternoon.

Summey Plumbing, Hendersonville, NC 828-693-1007
Ask for Keith.
 
Circulating pump is not necessary. You are wasting less water than you think. The cost of circulating pump will never be recouped in water savings. They are only viable in large arrays such as hotels, where they are common. Insulated hot water piping is the most feasible option.

Point of use is most viable with tankless. In a large house with one tankless heater you have to wait quite a while on water to heat up.
 
I like my tankless a lot but it's not "instant hot water" as it's often billed. As you know, you have to purge the cold water in the pipes.

There is normal maintenance on tankless. I have to flush mine with vinegar once per year, but it takes 30min and costs me $6. This cleans out the lime scale buildup inside the copper heating tubes.

I certainly appreciate the space savings and endless hot water.
 
Crazy idea from the left, solar backed up by a gas hot water tank. A small panel will keep more hot water available than you'll ever use and the cost to run the circulating pumps is less than leaving a light on. The cheap solution is a circulating system between a holding tank and the panels and a second circulating system from the gas hot water tank through a heat exchanger (think long copper coil) submerged in the holding tank. Fluids never mix.

Initial cost is high, but maybe no worse than tankless, there is a stupid premium on them.
 
I've been pleased with our tankless hot water heater.
However like others said... Insulate the pipes. Ours is mounted on the opposite side of our bedroom wall, which I nice for the water in the bathrooms, however keep in mind if it runs at night you can hear it start up.

I'm still considering putting a small electric on demand under the kitchen sink, it's the furthest away and takes a while to get the hot water to the tap.
Looked into the idea of a recirculation pump however it seems you can end up with "warm" cold water .
Once you get past the concept that it's not instant, it's nice to not run out of hot water.

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk
 
We have a friend who recently replaced their old electric water heater with a natural gas unit. Due to local building codes, they couldn't use the spare flue in their chimney. It had to be moved to an outside wall of the basement, and had to have an electric fan in the exhaust duct work. These code restrictions forced them to locate the new heater at the far end of the basement, which increased the distance between it and the kitchen. He's on city water, and was not happy with having to waste a few gallons of water every time he wanted hot water in the kitchen. He eventually installed a circulating pump that only comes on when he manually pushes a button switch near the sink. It recirculates the unheated water in the hot water pipe back to the tank, so he has hot water instantly when he opens the hot water faucet. He loves it, it only runs when he manually starts it, it only runs for a few seconds, and he claims it saves him money.

Since this will be a new build, a few suggestions from a NON-plumber... When we remodeled our kitchen, I did all the kitchen sink plumbing myself. The old drain pipe was hard-cemented black PVC (I'm not a plumber, so I don't know the exact name of the stuff) into the wall. I had opened the wall behind the kitchen sink cabinet, so I could replace that drain pipe connection. Where it exited the wall, I terminated it with one half of a PVC UNION. This way, after the wall was closed back up, and the new cabinets were installed, the end of the union just entered the cabinet, under the sink. I attached the mating part of the union from inside the new cabinet, and continued to plumb everything to the new sink and garbage disposal. Now, if a trap or the disposal, or anything else under the sink ever has to be replaced, the entire drain system can be removed, reconfigured, or replaced by simply breaking open that union, and doing whatever. Nothing will ever have to be changed behind the cabinet or inside the wall. The guy who installed our new cabinets said he's been installing cabinets for over 20 years, and NEVER saw anything like that. He thought it was "genius."

When we remodeled our living room many years ago, we removed a conventional door and installed a "pocket" door. We have a two story house, and the water pipes that supply water to the upstairs bathrooms were exactly where the pocket door would open, so I had to move them. When I relocated them, I made a PVC "inverted Y" in the feed to upstairs. The bottom of the "Y" fed the upstairs lines. One side of the "Y" was connected to the supply line (through a ball valve) and the other side of the "Y" was connected through another ball valve, to a male hose connector. I did this for both hot and cold water feeds. In normal operation, the ball valves connected to the hose connectors are CLOSED, and the feed valves are OPEN. In this configuration, the upstairs is connected to the hot and cold water supplies as normal. A few times so far, I've had plumbing problems upstairs. Before doing anything, I go downstairs in the basement, and CLOSE the feed valves, and connect a garden hose, or just hold a bucket under the hose connector, and OPEN that ball valve. This DRAINS the feed lines going upstairs. It helps to have my wife open the furthest faucet upstairs, which allows air back into the pipe as it drains. With both hot and cold feed pipes drained, when I open whatever the problem is upstairs, I don't have water all over the place. The main reason for this setup, was so I can cut off the water upstairs, and we still have, and can use water in the kitchen and downstairs bathroom. I don't have to shut off water in the entire house to work on the upstairs plumbing.

As I said, if you are building new, these are just a few simple ideas you might consider that may make your life a little easier down the road. Take them for what they're worth, as I said, I'm NOT a plumber...
 
We have a Rinnai tankless (propane). It is located on the master bath side of the house. We had a 30-gal electric heater placed in the crawl-space essentially under the kitchen sink to give more rapid hot water delivery to the kitchen; utility room (W&D); and a bathroom which are all pretty much opposite to where the tankless is located. This has worked out quite nicely.
 
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The old drain pipe was hard-cemented black PVC

ABS


Yeah seems like some smart plumbing, but if you need to reconfigure anything, and you eventually will, you may find you outsmarted yourself. PVC unions (unless it is schedule 80, or water fitting) can be easily broke if overtightened. They leak easy if too loose. If you have used a standard DWV union it could be trouble down the road. I hope you put some pipe dope in the female cone to aid in disassembly later. They tend to be hard to take apart years later, and how many union style P-traps are broken. If you used a water fitting.....well that's an awful lot of money to spend, when a Fernco would have worked aces for your application.

All my sinks have Ferncos attaching the headers.
Yes it is nice to be able to unhook the whole thing giving you room to work.

I'm not a master plumber, but did attain journeyman status.

I'd be curious how your friend determined that a circulating pump for hot water, saved him money on his water bill. He must live in the Biltmore House.
 
Speaking of breaking schedule 40 pipe.....

Out at the property where we're building this house for my parents, my wife has a pottery shop and we were putting in shrubbery and flower beds. Let me tell you thst damned clay dirt is HARD! To do one small area by hand to turn it with a shovel and roto till it took us two days of hard labor. It to mention load after load of shoveling and hauling a wheelbarrow of compost and then gravel to complete the drive after the edging goes down. So naturally, I jumped at the chance when the GC on the house left his bobcat there and gave us the code saying feel free to use it. Damn if I didn't do in a few hours three times what it took two days to do. Well, as luck would have it, I was actively trying to AVOID the sewer clean out pipe that came out if the ground but when I lifted the bucket to drop the load of dirt, well, the mechanical shovel made quick work of the schedule 40. Well, shit, literally.

The plumber came out yesterday, cut it off and reattached it, but now it comes out of the ground at a 45 deg angle. He said if we want he can replace the Y but this would work.
 
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