Long Range Bolt Gun

Discussion in 'Rimfire Central' started by hlpressley, May 18, 2017.

  1. hlpressley

    hlpressley Member Vendor

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    Actually I don't. Relax, no need to get upset.

    You're saying that if a rifle won't shoot well at 50 yards, it's going to shoot well at 200?
     
  2. Daleo8803

    Daleo8803 Happy to be here

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    At 100yds my b22 is doing 1 1/2" groups with the super extra. But I can tell the way the ammo reacts that I need higher quality ammo. On shots I know where good the bullet hit off by 2 inch's...
     
  3. I'll answer your question, with a question.

    If you had a custom rifle, say 30-06 that shot 1" 10 shot groups at 100yds with a certain load. You had another load that shot .5" 10 shot groups at 100yds.
    Which load would you choose for 700yds and beyond?
     
  4. hlpressley

    hlpressley Member Vendor

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    Definitely the load that shot .5" at 100.
     
  5. Would you be shocked to learn you just left the best long range load in the discard pile? The half inch load wouldn't hit a 12" plate at 700, but the 1" load would print palm size groups at 1000yds and beyond. They both had low standard deviation too.

    Great ammo at 50 is great ammo at 50, rarely anything more.
    If you pick the best ammo or rifle at 50, and think through linear exterpolation you are good to go out to 200+, you are going to be very disappointed 99 times out of 100.

    Don't fret about pissing me off, I've had MANY people treat me like a French internet model. There's a few people around here that can tell you whether I'm full of $#@+ or not. Ask them.
     
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  6. hlpressley

    hlpressley Member Vendor

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    I certainly did not know that. I just assumed the .5" load would open up a little more at 700 but would still be better than a load that shot 1" at 100. Once again, it was an assumption based solely on what I would think would be common sense.

    Just goes to show how new I really am to rifle shooting. Thanks for taking the time to explain and share your knowledge.
     
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  7. Wahoo95

    Wahoo95 Member

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    That same dynamic exist with centerfire as well.

    Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk
     
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  8. brooks28

    brooks28 Member

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    Long Gun Rem. 308 308 Bolt 2.JPG 308 Bolt.JPG Changed the scope to a SightMark 8.5-25 x 50 Triple Duty
     
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  9. Bunsen

    Bunsen ACME Labs

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    For those that are wondering what is possible with rimfires when you get the rifle/ammo/shooter combo correct for a given distance have a gander at the Snipers Hide 6x5 challenge thread:

    https://forum.snipershide.com/forum...-hide-rimfire-section/6253073-6x5-thread-v3-0

    @The Green Heron most certainly knows what he is talking about both rimfire and centerfire. He is a walking encyclopedia of knowledge on the subjects.

    @hlpressley other than the single group you posted of the CCI SV from your ammo test, have you shot and recorded any additional groups with the CCI SV at 50yds or 100yds? It's a very good group, but one group is not truly representative of it's performance. If the rifle continues to perform then I highly recommend you find all the available quantity of that specific lot# of CCI SV. Lot to lot variability is a BIG part of the rimfire accuracy equation.

    Perhaps even try your hand at the 6x5 challenge I linked to above.
     
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  10. Wahoo95

    Wahoo95 Member

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    Bunsen, there you go bringing another variable into the discussion talking about Lot #'s.

    Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk
     
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  11. hlpressley

    hlpressley Member Vendor

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    If the rain lets up I may try the Savage and CZ out to 100 this evening. Not sure my optic is ready for that but we will give it a go and post the results.

    Thanks for the input from everyone.
     
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  12. Daleo8803

    Daleo8803 Happy to be here

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    What?! Clean a 22!?? Are you serious???? Lol good idea. Will try tonight :)
     
  13. BASIL

    BASIL Member Benefactor Charter Life Member

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    Are you talking about the spiral path, and the time it takes to stabilize the projectile?
    I have seen, and heard of that, in centerfire but never thought about 22rf.
    Physics don't care, I guess. Makes since to me.
     
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2017
  14. VA_GENTLEMAN

    VA_GENTLEMAN Gone Galt Benefactor Charter Life Member

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    Echoing @The Green Heron , you have to find the right ammo for each yardage. It is not a linear thought process with any rifle, but it is really magnified in a .22 LR at 100+ Yards.

    Gnat Fart? It's going to move.
    Small Torque on the Trigger? It's going to move.
    Heat, Humidity, Pressure? It's going to move.

    The key is minimizing all potential variance across the board. And that starts with the Ammo.

    Then you have to put the rest of the it together. Trigger, DOPE, Follow-Thru, Wind Reading, etc...

    Shoot for 200. Practice on it. Challenge yourself... you will be surprised at how much your overall shooting improves!
     
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  15. Yaw, bullet going to sleep, etc whatever.
    There is always a heck of a lot of jabber about it, and it has merit. The idea of such things go beyond logic and "common sense".
    There are other factors at work such as "luck" and the "fact" (it's a fact) that the statistics of a bullet drifting "into" a group are the same as drifting "out" of the group. The number of shots in a group, therefore become incredibly important statistically. 3 shot groups mean very little at 100yds.

    Edit:

    Folks that talk the most about groups at 100 (with 22lr it's usually 25-50), and how many moa their rifle shoots usually are missing something. They usually have never actually shot 500-1000yds and have not the slightest clue what "moa" their rifle shoots "at distance". They are mathematicians. .5moa at 100....."My gun will shoot 5" at 1000yds!"
    Nope. It doesn't always work that way.
    There is much speculation as to why it isn't linear.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 19, 2017
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  16. East of Here

    East of Here Positively Capital

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    Yesterday, I had my CZ up on the 1000 yard platform at Frontline Defense because I just swapped out my scope and wanted to play/practice with the new glass at distance in some wind. I have found that a certain cheap 'over-the-counter' HV round that does not group particularly well at 50 in my rifle somehow performs very well for me at 200 - 300+ yards. At distance, it very clearly outperforms the more expensive "match" ammo that shoots single hole groups at 25/50 yards in my rifle. I don't necessarily understand it, but the performance difference is as plain as day. In fact, I averaged over 50% hits with the cheap HV ammo at 400 in the wind. Once I figured out the wind hold, my best 10 round group hit 7 out of 10 at 400 yards (it was running 12-16 MOA off the left edge ). I am starting to think that precision shooting a .22 is more like alchemy than physics.
     
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  17. hlpressley

    hlpressley Member Vendor

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    What kind of optic are you guys using to shoot out to that kind of distance?
     
  18. VA_GENTLEMAN

    VA_GENTLEMAN Gone Galt Benefactor Charter Life Member

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    I have a 20x SWFA for CVRPC, but when I go to Frontline Next Month I will put my Steiner 5x25x56 T5xi on the Annie...

    Some guys run US Optics, @The Green Heron runs a Mark 6, Bushnell DMR2's... any FFP with good tracking will do.
     
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  19. I think there is a Razor or two, and several Mark4 leupolds
     
  20. East of Here

    East of Here Positively Capital

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    I just switched to a 6-24X50 Athlon Helos FFP with the APLR2 MOA reticle. I had originally decided to buy an Athlon Argos, but my dumb ass started looking at them again online last Tuesday while I was gulping painkillers from some jaw surgery the day before. A lack of inhibition is not a good thing when shopping optics and I ended up deciding the Helos must be even better - and the rest is history. I like it so far. The glass is very good (for the price point) and it seems to track correctly in all directions. And, it has the Christmas tree and a lot of room for holdover in the reticle. I just need to figure out how to redneck a zero stop solution and I will be in business.
     
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  21. hlpressley

    hlpressley Member Vendor

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    Do you think the Helos is worth the additional money when compared to the Argos? Assuming you have looked through both?
     
  22. I can't tell anything about where they are made. Or really who makes them.



    ATHLON WAS BUILT TO SHARE OUR LOVE OF THE OUTDOORS!

    ATHLON is a proud US sports optics product company devoted to designing and delivering superior quality optics products and outdoor accessories at a competitive price to our consumers via our distribution and retail channels. Athlon has strong engineering design capability, strategic alliances with quality manufacturers and a streamlined fully integrated supply chain. These advantages enable us to bring the latest cutting edge technologies and cut out the extra layers of traditional supply chain. With these advantages we are able to deliver goods and products to individual consumers’ hands with great cost savings. Our obsession with product quality and superior customer service for hunters, recreational shooters, and outdoor enthusiasts drives our business. The business model on which we founded ATHLON allows us to deliver high quality optics at extremely competitive prices. Our goal from day one is to pass those savings to you, the outdoor enthusiast.

    WE’RE CONFIDENT THAT YOU’LL BE ABLE TO MAKE THE SHOT YOU NEED REGARDLESS OF WHEN YOU BOUGHT OUR SCOPE.
    We work with our manufacture partners that own and operate vertically integrated manufacturing facilities utilizing EP-level cleanrooms for assembly, sophisticated high precision CNC machines, advanced lens polishing, and superior coating equipment. Maintaining tight relationships with our manufacturers allows us to deliver exceptional product quality. All our optical products are tested for waterproofing, fogging-proofing, and shock-proofing before we ship. Our riflescopes are required to withstand recoil test up to 1000G for one thousand times. By holding the utmost stringent quality standard and rigorous testing requirement, we’re confident in offering a life time warranty for all riflescopes, red dots, binoculars, and spotting scopes.

    COMPARE THE FUNCTIONALITY, QUALITY, AND COST OF OUR SCOPES TO OUR COMPETITORS’.
    With our products coming directly from our own partner manufacturers, we are able to produce and deliver products at the most competitive cost. By setting up a vertically integrated supply chain and streamlined sales channels, we pass those saving to our customers and our communities.


    I
     
  23. East of Here

    East of Here Positively Capital

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    I have looked through both, but not together at the same time. I am not sure there is any measurable difference in optical quality. Honestly, the only real differences I can see are that the Helos illumination dial is on the side focus knob, the Helos turrets are larger, the Helos turret clicks are more crisp, the Helos dials 15 MOA per revolution as opposed to 12 MOA per revolution, the Helos offers the Christmas tree reticle in MOA and the Helos has locking turrets. In my case, I wanted the Christmas tree and MOA and the Helos offered that and I decided it was worth the extra money over the Argos with the Christmas tree in MIL. I think it is just a matter of preference. YMMV...
     
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  24. East of Here

    East of Here Positively Capital

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    Mine has "Made in China" engraved on the bottom of the scope, so that should solve part of the mystery.
     
  25. VA_GENTLEMAN

    VA_GENTLEMAN Gone Galt Benefactor Charter Life Member

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    Sometimes you get a winner with a "less than fad-driven high-Priced Scopes".

    The 97-5x that I shot with the Savage is rocking a 10x40x50 Osprey!... Yes... cheap scope that for some reason, has never lost zero and has never failed me on tracking. And that scope elevation knob has made some serious quick rotations over 4 years.

    Like anything else... (1) Ammo takes away variance, (2) Scopes that work take away variance and of course (3) A good consistent rifle takes away variance.

    There is always the one part that is hit or miss.... The Trigger Nut.
     
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  26. Hashknife

    Hashknife New Member

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    Great Thread!!!

    I acquired a Schultz & Larsen M-70 Military trainer .22 bolt rifle a few years ago... It was made in Denmark. It is the most accurate, sweet shooting .22 rifle I have ever seen. If any of you get a chance to shoot one, you will probably have to have one. If any of you find one for sale and can not purchase it, please PM me... I will probably take it...
    I need to build a scope mount for it and try it out at some longer distances... I would like to try a Weaver T-series scope on it but I don't have one yet. I do have a Swarovski Z6i that I might try in the meantime..!

    Manufactured in Denmark by Schultz & Larsen, the model 70 was adopted by Scandinavian Rifle Associations in Norway and Sweden. The M70 is a precision made, heavy target barrel, single shot .22lr caliber rifle featuring outstanding match grade accuracy. Each is fitted with a target competition stock and adjustable target rear sights.


    http://billard85.blogspot.com/
     
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2017
  27. East of Here

    East of Here Positively Capital

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    Proned out with a CZ455 Tacticool and Federal Automatch ammo, I have lately been able to make a good number of hits on the larger steel plate (30" height X 20" width, IIRC) at 500 yards at Frontline Defense. Any changes in the wind at that range will really wreak havoc on your shot though. It really is amazing what level of accuracy these new rifles are capable of.
     
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  28. ECNC

    ECNC Member

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    How do you like the CZ? I was thinking about getting the CZ 455 Varmint Thumbhole Fluted Barrel. Setting it up for 100 yards or more. Put a Harris Bi-pod on it and either Weaver or Vortex scope on it. That way I can leave my Anshutz just for 50 yard bench rest.
     
  29. dalek

    dalek Member

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  30. hlpressley

    hlpressley Member Vendor

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    It was a good rifle. I ended up selling it as I just prefer my Savage FV-SR in the Boyd's stock. Each time I took the two out the Savage was always as good as the CZ and sometimes better. Meanwhile the CZ never out performed the Savage.
     
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  31. Lager

    Lager New Member

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    Agree with you, stupid me sold my Savage even though it outshot the CZ455 Tacticool thinking it HAD to be me ? Everyone said the CZ was better so I believed them. Years later, Im looking at score cards and realized that that my Savage still posted up better scores then the CZ did .Thats was using the same ammo that I spent many practice sessions testing with both rifles, ELey Black.
    Everyone else's results might vary from mine..
     
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  32. ECNC

    ECNC Member

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    Well I am starting to lean towards the Savage. Got to talk to a few people at the range yesterday and they agree with you guys. Savage is the way to go.

    Thanks for the input guys.
     
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  33. hlpressley

    hlpressley Member Vendor

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    Playing around quietly this afternoon. 10" plates at 180 yards with a steady left to right breeze. Good times! IMG_4028.JPG
     
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  34. Lager

    Lager New Member

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    You have to understand something also, be prepared to spend a lot of money trying different expensive ammo to find what you like best. Then take that same bunch of ammo, have someone else load the weapon for you with at least 20 rounds each, then shoot again. Then compare results, might be surprised that result #1 is different then result # 2. Humans have a tendency to try harder when they think this one ammo is the best.
    If you really want to get stupid, make sure the bore and chamber are cleaned completely between testing and shoot about 20 rounds before testing because each ammo manufactor uses a different lube and not cleaning can skew your results.
    Have I stressed enough that ammo is the key to a good shooting 22lr?
    Scopes, Im not going to get into. But, just think, good magnification/thin cross hairs / repeatability of adjustments and no parallax. Google parallax if you need to.
    Va Gents 97-5 X is a pretty impressive score using a sporter rifle.. Remembering back, Think the best I could do with either rifle was a 90 and a few more X's but they were just luck.
    If I had to it all over again, and I think I will since now Im interested again. The Savage FV SR with the Boyds thumbhole stock/relieved where necessary and my Mueller scope..
     
  35. ECNC

    ECNC Member

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    I already shoot expensive ammo in my Anschutz. Eley tenex, match and cheap Eley target. Since I do not shoot real competitions anymore I have not bought tenex in years. Still shoot Eley match and target. The Eley match is some good stuff. I will be checking out some of the different high velocity ammo including CCI, Wolf and Eley black box.

    As far as glass I get the best that I can afford and if someone else is willing to foot the bill I will let them choose what glass I am going to get. Interesting note someone I use to shoot with years ago kept bragging about his $1500 scope and about six of us had a match and he lost. None of us had what I would call an expensive scope.
     
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  36. Lager

    Lager New Member

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    Appreciate your response,, mine was more of a public service announcement to warn new comers that might choose to venture into this madness then anything..
    If your looking for a high velocity round for more distance with less drop,, may I suggest the Aquila Interceptor ??? I found it to be very accurate for a high speed bullet.. here is the link.
    https://www.aguilaammo.com/rimfire/
     
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  37. foopid stucker

    foopid stucker Member

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    Some time ago I saw a video that tracked the flight of a bullet(from behind) and it was interesting to see the spiraling loops get tighter. I believe at 300yards , maybe it was 700.... for the life of me I cannot find that video .
     
  38. Gear Head

    Gear Head Happy to be here

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    What torque setting did you end up at? I pulled mine apart to open up the barrel channel a little more in some places but I don't have a torque screwdriver. It shoots great but I'd like to play with torque to see if I can get it shooting better
     
  39. Gear Head

    Gear Head Happy to be here

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    The argos and the helos have the same glass. The only difference is the features. I have an argos btr 6-24x50 sitting on my 455 tacticool
     
  40. NCFubar

    NCFubar Active Member

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    On mine the barrel screws seem to like 38 in-lbs and action screws 26 in-lbs. Go on and bite the bullet and buy a torque screw driver ... it is OCD but I think it is well worth ... optics mounting is another major use.
     
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