Matt & Tim Do DMR

[Tim]

Well, yesterday was the first DMR (Designated Marksman, Rifle) match at the Clinton House Plantation. @Matt.Cross and I teamed up to see if we could bag an easy win.

We didn't. =)

Actually we went into it knowing that our goal was to just see what it was all about, try something new and have some giggles.

So, the basic course of fire over 5 stages went like this:

- Spend 8 minutes of prep time per stage alternating between "where the #)$#%)#$#@@)#% are the targets?" and asking "Do what now?"

- When the timer went off we had to do something unnatural with the pistol - weak hand only, consecutive hits on an IDPA steel at 100 yards, etc.

- Then the secondary shooter (who shot first every time) had to clear 5 targets anywhere from 330 to 875 yards with as many shots as you cared to take.

- Primary shooter (who shot second) could then clear the same 5 targets - by taking only 1 shot at each. If you needed/wanted to go back for seconds, you had to complete shooting at all 5, then start back over at 1...

- The entire time the partners had to be within arm's reach. AND....ALL equipment that you used throughout the entire match, had to be carried on every stage and kept within arm's reach the entire time.

We shot out of the side door of a bus, through bus windows, out the back of a suburban, while perched on a log (no part of your body and none of your equipment could be touching the ground...), and a bunch of other unnatural positions.

The biggest challenge was literally FINDING the targets. At the stage brief we were given a couple lines on the ground that denoted the boundaries, then left to find the bare steel (no paint) targets tucked in tree lines, brush piles, shadows, fields, etc. We WERE given ranges, but not to specific targets. For example, "there are targets at 475, 575, 675, 775 and 875...find them".

We shot with a great squad that included a team from the Army Marksmanship Unit. Terrific guys that truly knew their stuff. I learned a bunch just watching them work together.

We were humbled, but I'll definitely be back. I had a terrific time.

In this stage, I had to clear some falling steel with my weak hand while Matt had to deal with a spinner (I don't recall if that was weak hand as well). Then, pick up our gear and go perch on a log to clear the rifle steel. This stage had targets at 330 out to 695 somewhere in that field. I swear we found them all during the prep time, but they moved when the clock started.

After recording this video, the match director's insisted we put up the camera so as not to give their match a bad reputation or advertise just how awful we were....

 

[Tim]

Someone else's video....

 

[NCFubar]

Hmmmm ... sounds like pulling the trigger and hitting the steel was actually the least hard (I sure would not use any form of the word easy for what you described) to do. How far do you think you guys wound up hoofing it thru the hole match hauling gear?

 

[Millie]

Well, yesterday was the first DMR (Designated Marksman, Rifle) match at the Clinton House Plantation. @Matt.Cross and I teamed up to see if we could bag an easy win.

We didn't. =)

Actually we went into it knowing that our goal was to just see what it was all about, try something new and have some giggles.

So, the basic course of fire over 5 stages went like this:

- Spend 8 minutes of prep time per stage alternating between "where the #)$#%)#$#@@)#% are the targets?" and asking "Do what now?"

- When the timer went off we had to do something unnatural with the pistol - weak hand only, consecutive hits on an IDPA steel at 100 yards, etc.

- Then the secondary shooter (who shot first every time) had to clear 5 targets anywhere from 330 to 875 yards with as many shots as you cared to take.

- Primary shooter (who shot second) could then clear the same 5 targets - by taking only 1 shot at each. If you needed/wanted to go back for seconds, you had to complete shooting at all 5, then start back over at 1...

- The entire time the partners had to be within arm's reach. AND....ALL equipment that you used throughout the entire match, had to be carried on every stage and kept within arm's reach the entire time.

We shot out of the side door of a bus, through bus windows, out the back of a suburban, while perched on a log (no part of your body and none of your equipment could be touching the ground...), and a bunch of other unnatural positions.

The biggest challenge was literally FINDING the targets. At the stage brief we were given a couple lines on the ground that denoted the boundaries, then left to find the bare steel (no paint) targets tucked in tree lines, brush piles, shadows, fields, etc. We WERE given ranges, but not to specific targets. For example, "there are targets at 475, 575, 675, 775 and 875...find them".

We shot with a great squad that included a team from the Army Marksmanship Unit. Terrific guys that truly knew their stuff. I learned a bunch just watching them work together.

We were humbled, but I'll definitely be back. I had a terrific time.

In this stage, I had to clear some falling steel with my weak hand while Matt had to deal with a spinner (I don't recall if that was weak hand as well). Then, pick up our gear and go perch on a log to clear the rifle steel. This stage had targets at 330 out to 695 somewhere in that field. I swear we found them all during the prep time, but they moved when the clock started.

After recording this video, the match director's insisted we put up the camera so as not to give their match a bad reputation or advertise just how awful we were....

That looks like a whole lot of fun!!

 

[Majicmike]

That looks like a whole lot of fun!!

Looks lik a a lot of work

 

[Millie]

Someone else's video....

Talk about challenging stuff! Nice going guys.

 

[Millie]

Looks lik a a lot of work

But who doesn't love a good challenge??

 

[Tim]

Hmmmm ... sounds like pulling the trigger and hitting the steel was actually the least hard (I sure would not use any form of the word easy for what you described) to do. How far do you think you guys wound up hoofing it thru the hole match hauling gear?

We actually drove between stages, so the “hoofing it” part with gear wasn’t all that bad.

 

[Matt.Cross]

It was a fantastic match, despite our lackluster performance...

We did several things at the outset that I felt increased our enjoyment despite being on the low end of the learning curve:

#1. We did it just for kicks, nothing to prove, but rather doing for the sake of learning and the sheer enjoyment. Setting a reasonable bar with regards to expectations is a great way to avoid being disappointed by the outcome, whatever it happens to be.

#2. We formulated a strategy based on the general format of the shoot, and modified it to suit whatever demands the station we were shooting placed on us. That worked really well to keep us moving if we started missing targets.

#3. We utilized our time to capitalize on what we were doing fairly well with, which was pistol targets. We probably finished mid-pack because some of the all-star rifle guys played fast & loose with the pistol phases of each stage.

#4. @Tim has a great sense of humor, and we had no problem with maintaining levity. We gave our best efforts to what we were doing, but when the results aren't noteworthy, if you can't cope you'll end up being that one whining frustrated punk you see at every match. We didn't have that problem, Tim is hilarious and kept me smiling the whole time.

I'm already ready for Tim to call me up for the next one, more good times are definitely on the way, especially if I can get more Mexican food out of the deal.

 

[Hammer12b]

What kind of equipment is needed for this match?

 

[11B CIB]

How many rifle rounds for a first timer would you suggest?

Looks like brass recovery is a no go which kind of sucks for something like 224 Valkyrie or Grendel, so that’s a cost I need to plan for.


Also would a set of Binos help or just get in the way and using the rifle optic for spotting is better?

 

[VA_GENTLEMAN]

Lee put that one on and I had to go to State Softball Championship or my daughter and I would have been there.

1st: Awesome Job! It is a blast to go shoot these... and Clinton House has a lot of nice stages and land to build.

2nd: It is tough to land top 5, even top 10... Just have fun and keep learning... it takes time to learn the tricks and tips.

3rd: If you are with a great group... which is usual.... It is more about the fun and the learning

Keep shooting them... they are fun!

 

[Tim]

What kind of equipment is needed for this match?

They ran 2 divisions.
Tactical = .223 and/or .308 only
Open = all other calibers

The Secondary shooters almost exclusively ran gas guns (ARs) as they were allowed unlimited shots to score their 5 hits.
Primary shooters were a fairly even mix of bolt and gas guns. Primary shooter was limited to 1 shot at each of the 5 targets, though you could cycle back and go through them again if time allowed.

Targets were minimum of 300+ yards out to 875. So, optics were important. I ran a 3-15x Burris XTR II.

As far as other equipment...I couldn't imagine doing this without a GOOD set of binos or spotting scope to use during the prep time. And a ballistics calculator, with solid data from your gun, that accounts for changes in atmosphere. A laser range finder would not have been strictly necessary for this match as ranges were provided, but I'm planning on investing in a better unit than I have now if I keep this up.

Various bags, sling, tripods (to shoot off of, not spotting), bipods, backpacks, etc. to use as shooting rests were critical. We were only allowed 2 "shooting bags" between us, so making use of the backpack as another rest came in very handy.

Looking back on the match, I wish I had made better use of my sling as a support.

 

[Tim]

Lee put that one on

This match was put together by Ray, Sam, Sergio and Matt....I'm not sure who "Lee" is.

3rd: If you are with a great group... which is usual.... It is more about the fun and the learning

Amen to that. We had a blast all because the squad was all about doing whatever 'your' best happened to be.

 

[VA_GENTLEMAN]

This match was put together by Ray, Sam, Sergio and Matt....I'm not sure who "Lee" is.



Amen to that. We had a blast all because the squad was all about doing whatever 'your' best happened to be.

Wasn't Lee Satterfield in the mix? And if not, my apologies... Lee had this on his FB page and had been wanting to put one on at Clinton House since Robbie pulled back due to the work.

 

[Tim]

How many rifle rounds for a first timer would you suggest?

Looks like brass recovery is a no go which kind of sucks for something like 224 Valkyrie or Grendel, so that’s a cost I need to plan for.


Also would a set of Binos help or just get in the way and using the rifle optic for spotting is better?

If you're the Primary shooter, and you took every allocated shot, it would only be 50 rounds. (5 targets X 2 opportunities per stage X 5 stages). I think there would have been plenty of time for brass recovery, especially for bolt guns.

As the secondary shooter, you're allowed unlimited rounds, but only need to make 5 hits per stage. I pre-loaded 30 rounds mags and only used 1 per stage. So, I shot far fewer than 150 rounds.

For pistol, there were ~10 targets per stage, but rarely did we shoot strong hand/two hand, so my accuracy suffered.

This match was a LOT more about ranging, reading the wind, building a solid shooting position and team work and less about volume of fire.

A good set of binos for the team mate to spot with would be a terrific tool.

 

[Tim]

Wasn't Lee Satterfield in the mix? And if not, my apologies... Lee had this on his FB page and had been wanting to put one on at Clinton House since Robbie pulled back due to the work.

ahh...I believe he was there, but did not have a hand in organizing it.

 

[Tim]

I keep mentioning that Secondary shooters had to clear 5 targets with unlimited rounds while the Primary got only 1 shot each on target.

This is where team work really came into play. Each stage had a time limit (6 minutes), so you had to clear the pistol stuff out of the way, then proceed to rifle. If the secondary shooter goes to war on the course and doesn't get his hits, the Primary might never even fire a shot.

Matt and I came up with a basic plan of attack to help mitigate wasting time, essentially a set number of misses before moving on or a set time allotted to the secondary shooter. It worked fairly well for us. But if your goal in a team match is maximum trigger time, this might not be the best match for your goals.

 

[VA_GENTLEMAN]

ahh...I believe he was there, but did not have a hand in organizing it.

Ah... roger that.

 

[Variable]

Sounds (and looks) like fun to me! Good on you guys for going out and giving it a go.

I think all training like this shows people what works and what doesn't. You learn so much so quickly, everyone should get off their butts and get out there and train and "do". My usual issues with training/competition like this is not taking time to take notes, so i end up forgetting things i wanted to remember. You get caught up in the stages. I think using a Go Pro and recording the whole shebang and making verbal notes to review later may work best for me. I am just to dumb to remember it all.

I need a better scope and gear for longer ranges for something like this but it sure gets you thinking.

V

 

[11B CIB]

My goal at this new range was getting off a bench.

Practicing seated shots and more unsupported shooting is on the list

 

[Tim]

My usual issues with training/competition like this is not taking time to take notes, so i end up forgetting things i wanted to remember.

that's a big reason I started this thread.

 

[NKD]

Dang, weak hand Texas star? Be interesting to see the actual total rounds fired vs. hits on that part of the course for the whole match. I bet there was some serious giving up on that thing!

 

[Chuckman]

Sure, I can hit a target with a pistol at 100 yards. If I can throw it.

Looks fun.

 

[Matt.Cross]

Dang, weak hand Texas star? Be interesting to see the actual total rounds fired vs. hits on that part of the course for the whole match. I bet there was some serious giving up on that thing!

That's precisely why we focused on those sections harder, we were doing fairly well with pistol phases on each stage, so we focused on that to make up the bulk of our points. I am convinced that the course is designed to teach a few very valuable real-world shooting lessons, namely these;

#1. Even in a team, you'll only be able to carry a limited amount of gear. You'll want to stick to bare necessities, and lightweight versatile multifunctional gear that is suited to handling a wide range of less than ideal conditions. In other words, choosing your gear wisely will make or break you in the field.

#2. If you don't function as a team, you aren't functional. Communication is key, you aren't going to adapt well if don't have a basic underlying plan, and you need to communicate changes to that plan according to the demands of changing circumstances.

#3. Engagements in the real world rarely ever occur under ideal conditions for anyone involved, if you can't be creative and adapt and improvise, you're not going to win. Model your practice to undergird your weaknesses, rather than only polishing your strengths to a brilliant shine.

#4. Just keep going, no matter what happens, until you get some results. The primary in this match for instance only got one shot per rifle target on the course, but you could re-engage targets if time remained after engaging all five targets. So you if you missed, next target. If you hit, next target. Either way, keep going and you might have time to come back and try it again.

#5. Weight matters, especially once you begin to feel any fatigue. This goes for everything from your personal physique to what you put on your rifle. Lighter is truly better.

I learned a lot from the match and I'm already eager to do another one when the opportunity arises. Considering that it was an experimental format that essentially is a collage of other formats, I thought it was really well done. It was certainly very challenging, and that will keep me coming back to it.

 

[Chuckman]

@Matt.Cross , good write-up. I really like #5. Too many people train on tactics and shooting, not nearly enough people train the body (or the mind). As Tim Kennedy said (paraphrasing), train like you are going to be the hardest person to kill. You don't need to be a spec ops secret frog beret, but you should be able to move from here to there carrying stuff without being winded. That's why I love the idea of the run-n-gun (that I am sad to be missing, and can't wait for the one in the fall). Nothing like physical and mental stress to show you your shooting shortcomings.

 

[Hammer12b]

I may try this next time!sounds like fun!

 

[Tim]

#5. Weight matters, especially once you begin to feel any fatigue. This goes for everything from your personal physique to what you put on your rifle. Lighter is truly better.

I really like #5.

I don't know if I necessarily agree...as it pertains to THIS format and COMPETITION vs. Real World.

I'm fluffy for sure, but I don't feel my marginal fitness got in the way at all in this setting.

In terms of equipment weight, I think if my rifle had been any lighter it would be much harder to stay on target. In terms of equipment weight, I think I'd rather have a slightly heavier rifle and work on better positions/technique.

Now, if you're looking at these competitions as 'training' rather than 'games', then it's an entirely different story.

 

[Matt.Cross]

I don't know if I necessarily agree...as it pertains to THIS format and COMPETITION vs. Real World.

I think you're right about that from the perspective of just shooting a match where you drive between stations and less than 10 yards movement between any phases of the station. My post was from the perspective of what the match could teach about coping with the conditions afield in a realistic combative scenario.

Now, if you're looking at these competitions as 'training' rather than 'games', then it's an entirely different story.

My utility for these matches falls somewhere between those two things. I do them for the enjoyment, but part of the enjoyment is learning the practical aspects and this match seemed really well geared towards that.

 

[Chuckman]

I don't know if I necessarily agree...as it pertains to THIS format and COMPETITION vs. Real World.

I'm fluffy for sure, but I don't feel my marginal fitness got in the way at all in this setting.

In terms of equipment weight, I think if my rifle had been any lighter it would be much harder to stay on target. In terms of equipment weight, I think I'd rather have a slightly heavier rifle and work on better positions/technique.

Now, if you're looking at these competitions as 'training' rather than 'games', then it's an entirely different story.

I think in the real world it's (fitness) even more important, and I will tell you why. To expound on what Grossman wrote, the adrenaline dump you will get--and you will get it--puts such a catecholemic load onto your CVS, you become prone to a heart attack by a large magnitude. There are ways to blunt this; training in stressful situations (physically or mentally) and having a high degree of physical fitness. Fitness is scaled, right? I am not as fit as I was when I was with Recon, but I am fit enough to be able to move, shoot, and communicate fairly quickly. One doesn't need to be 5% body fat and a crossfitter, just fit 'enough' (and that is contextual and a personal decision). What you call 'marginal' seems to be good enough, right (for this event)? It's also true that most gunfights are close range and not moving off the X, so you don't need to be able to breathlessly complete the 5K run-n-gun.

You bring up a good point in 'training' vs 'games', and I am definitely not qualified to speak to that (never having shot any games), so in my world, it's training. I hope to rectify that at some point. I am soon to be training hard for a fall run-n-gun.

All this isn't to say 'you're wrong,' (I hope I didn't come off that way) only food for though that in any endeavor where one must move and there is an element of stress--mental and/or physical-- fitness can only make you better; it cannot make things less good. But lack of fitness can definitely make things less good. You were there and in this event you may not have needed to have a degree of fitness per your comments and I respect your significant gaming experience to expound on how fitness would or would not affect competition.

As you can see I am highly interested in this area, and have been reading about functional fitness and body habitus (how big someone is) as it relates to high-stress performance like EMS, LE, and FD. I would be interested in hearing your thoughts, and I am happy to take it to a different thread.

 

[Tim]

- fitness can only make you better; it cannot make things less good. But lack of fitness can definitely make things less good.

100% agreement for games and real-world both.

As soon as the heart rate increases, it becomes awfully difficult to hold a steady aim. If you're not limber, it can be a stretch (see what I did there?) to get into a good shooting position, etc.etc.